Cantrip: Fist

[Trandir]

Tenser's Fists

Transmutation cantrip
Casting time: 1 bonus action
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute

After you cast this spell magic surrownds your arms an you can use then as an effective weapon.
To cast this spell you need all your hands to be unoccupied. While this spell is active you can't use your hands, this includes holding objects or providing somatic components.
For the duration of the spell as an Action you can make a special weapon attack that deals 1d12+ your Str modifier.
You can end this spell earlier by using an Action.

This attack damage increases when reach higher levels. At 5th level the attack damage increases by a d12, and again 11th level and 17th level.

Classes: Wizard



Is this thing balanced?

[Zhorn]

So using Fire Bolt as our benchmark: 1d10 per tier, Fire Damage, Ranged, no +mod to damage

Drawbacks:
Bludgeoning Damage: more resisted than Fire, BUT that usually has the caveat of non-magical damage, so probably on the same level.
Melee as opposed to ranged.

Enhancements:
1d12 per tier is a little stronger than 1d10 per tier
+mod to damage (assuming it is behaving like unarmed strike in all other areas not specified), which Fire Bolt lacks.

... not sure it the trade offs are balanced. Maybe work off the damage of Green Flame Blade as a starting point?

[nickl_2000]

So...

You can do this and have a shield at the same time. So, it has an advantage over BB and GFB due to never needing war caster to cast spells. Since it’s a melee attack, you would still add your strength bonus to it.

It’s less flexible than the other two melee cantrips for weapons, but more flexible for other casting.

Overall, I would say the d12 is too much. I would think that a d8 would be more appropriate since you can use it with a shield. That makes it the same base damage as a longsword.

[MoleMage]

So using Fire Bolt as our benchmark: 1d10 per tier, Fire Damage, Ranged, no +mod to damage

Drawbacks:
Bludgeoning Damage: more resisted than Fire, BUT that usually has the caveat of non-magical damage, so probably on the same level.
Melee as opposed to ranged.

Enhancements:
1d12 per tier is a little stronger than 1d10 per tier
+mod to damage (assuming it is behaving like unarmed strike in all other areas not specified), which Fire Bolt lacks.

... not sure it the trade offs are balanced. Maybe work off the damage of Green Flame Blade as a starting point?

As I read it, the damage from this cantrip is still nonmagical. Using Green Flame Blade as a comparison is also not ideal because that adds additional effects to a full strike, while this replaces the strike with another die. Shocking grasp might be the best point of comparison.

[Yunru]

So...

You can do this and have a shield at the same time. So, it has an advantage over BB and GFB due to never needing war caster to cast spells. Since it’s a melee attack, you would still add your strength bonus to it.

It’s less flexible than the other two melee cantrips for weapons, but more flexible for other casting.

Overall, I would say the d12 is too much. I would think that a d8 would be more appropriate since you can use it with a shield. That makes it the same base damage as a longsword.

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade don't need Warcaster to be used with a shield, as the weapon is the material component.

More importantly, this isn't balanced because only the Wizard gets it :p

[nickl_2000]

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade don't need Warcaster to be used with a shield, as the weapon is the material component.

More importantly, this isn't balanced because only the Wizard gets it :p

I wasn’t saying that you needed warcaster for BB/GFB, but that if you sword and boards it you need warcaster for other spells. With this spell you don’t need to worry about that at all.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It doesn’t add ability bonus, it’s melee rather than ranged v Fire bolt (which you can also do with a shield). Can’t be combined with a magic weapon like BB or GFB.

It’s virtually uncomboable and so it isn’t going to supplant anything.

It’s fine.

[Trandir]

So using Fire Bolt as our benchmark: 1d10 per tier, Fire Damage, Ranged, no +mod to damage

Drawbacks:
Bludgeoning Damage: more resisted than Fire, BUT that usually has the caveat of non-magical damage, so probably on the same level.
Melee as opposed to ranged.

Enhancements:
1d12 per tier is a little stronger than 1d10 per tier
+mod to damage (assuming it is behaving like unarmed strike in all other areas not specified), which Fire Bolt lacks.

... not sure it the trade offs are balanced. Maybe work off the damage of Green Flame Blade as a starting point?

Well a d12 has an average of 6.5 damage while a warhammer is 4.5 plus BB or GFB bonus. Also this does scale with Str so you should miss a couple of hits compared to flame bolt. Also you have to be in melee range do cast this efficiently.

So...

You can do this and have a shield at the same time. So, it has an advantage over BB and GFB due to never needing war caster to cast spells. Since it’s a melee attack, you would still add your strength bonus to it.

It’s less flexible than the other two melee cantrips for weapons, but more flexible for other casting.

Overall, I would say the d12 is too much. I would think that a d8 would be more appropriate since you can use it with a shield. That makes it the same base damage as a longsword.

Emmmmm not exactly. You can have a shield but the S components require a free hand as almost any cantrip (shield and eldrich blast) I don't see what's the point of that.

What other casting?
Again compare this to let's say toll the dead, you have a worst damage type, far worst range, same components so you can cast it with a shield. I feel like the range is enought to buy off a permanent d12 damage.

As I read it, the damage from this cantrip is still nonmagical. Using Green Flame Blade as a comparison is also not ideal because that adds additional effects to a full strike, while this replaces the strike with another die. Shocking grasp might be the best point of comparison.

True. So instead of 4.5 average damage and other stuff, no reaction and advantage agains armored foes, you get 6.5 +Str damage and the attack roll scales off Str as well, non magical damage.
I do not know if it's balanced compared to shocking grasp, so we might be in the power creep side of homebrews.

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade don't need Warcaster to be used with a shield, as the weapon is the material component.

More importantly, this isn't balanced because only the Wizard gets it :p

Exactly.

What do you mean? I probably should rename this Tenser's something if the mage only nature is a problem.

[nickl_2000]

It doesn’t add ability bonus.

I read that it does.... we will need an OP decision on this

[Trandir]

It doesn’t add ability bonus, it’s melee rather than ranged v Fire bolt (which you can also do with a shield). Can’t be combined with a magic weapon like BB or GFB.

It’s virtually uncomboable and so it isn’t going to supplant anything.

It’s fine.

Well you are making a Str based attack so it does add the ability bonus to damage.
Honestly at least now the wizard can't dump Str if she wants to use this.

I read that it does.... we will need an OP decision on this

Well I thought that with the "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack" part that is the same as BB and GFB it was obvious that it adds the Str mod to both attack and damage roll.

[Old Harry MTX]

Well you are making a Str based attack so it does add the ability bonus to damage.
Honestly at least now the wizard can't dump Str if she wants to use this.

...

Well I thought that with the "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack" part that is the same as BB and GFB it was obvious that it adds the Str mod to both attack and damage roll.

Yes, as written it simply use another die instead of the d4 of an unarmed strike, so it adds Str. An Eldritch Knight can use it?

[Trandir]

Yes, as written it simply use another die instead of the d4 of an unarmed strike, so it adds Str. An Eldritch Knight can use it?

Yes they can.

Also an unarmed strike usually does 1 damage not 1d4

[Ogrillian]

To be honest I see this as more of a Druid or cleric ability, those two classes have more durability in melee than wizards. I’ve very rarely see anyone playing the wizard class become happy about having enemies within melee range. I don’t see if the damage scales with higher spell slots so you could add a knock back effect for higher levels that would give it some utility and justify your glass cannon getting in melee range

[Trandir]

To be honest I see this as more of a Druid or cleric ability, those two classes have more durability in melee than wizards. I’ve very rarely see anyone playing the wizard class become happy about having enemies within melee range. I don’t see if the damage scales with higher spell slots so you could add a knock back effect for higher levels that would give it some utility and justify your glass cannon getting in melee range

Well not all cantrips are created equal, the intent was to give the wizard a good melee option but their nature would make it not the go to cantrip to deal damage. Clerics already have toll the dead and duids have shillelag, both in my opinion better cantrips for damage than this thing.

Also this is a cantrip so it scales with lavel not with spell slot expended.

[Zhorn]

To be honest I see this as more of a Druid or cleric ability, those two classes have more durability in melee than wizards.

Trandir had no option on this with a spell named Fist

Spoiler: it HAD to be a wizard

Show

I don’t see if the damage scales with higher spell slots so you could add a knock back effect for higher levels that would give it some utility and justify your glass cannon getting in melee range

It's a cantrip, they scale with character level tiers, not spell slot levels.
Usual pattern is one damage die for levels 1-4, two for 5-10, three for 11-16, four for 17-20

[Trandir]

Trandir had no option on this with a spell named Fist

Spoiler: it HAD to be a wizard

Show

That is indeed the inspiration for this spell. So now wizards everywhere can finally cast Fist, and spellcasters can counterspell it.



Anyway if some of you think that this is umbalanced it can always mimic shillelagh

Tenser's Fist

Transmutation cantrip
Casting time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, M (a piece of cloth worth at least 1 cp)
Duration: 1 minute

You imbue your own body with arcane energy allowing you to perform great feats of strength.
For the duration of the spell you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using unarmed strike, the unarmed strikes are considered magical and their damage die becomes a d8.

Classes: wizard


This way no one can say that is unbalanced but I feel like it's also less intresting.

[Hellpyre]

That is indeed the inspiration for this spell. So now wizards everywhere can finally cast Fist, and spellcasters can counterspell it.



Anyway if some of you think that this is umbalanced it can always mimic shillelagh

Tenser's Fist

Transmutation cantrip
Casting time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, M (a piece of cloth worth at least 1 cp)
Duration: 1 minute

You imbue your own body with arcane energy allowing you to perform great feats of strength.
For the duration of the spell you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using unarmed strike, the unarmed strikes are considered magical and their damage die becomes a d8.

Classes: wizard


This way no one can say that is unbalanced but I feel like it's also less intresting.

I actually like this version better, at least for an EK who wants to use it for Unarmed Fighting. But the original version too much more true to its inspiration for me to recommend changing it to this version in good faith.

[Old Harry MTX]

Much better! Why don't you let it scale with level? I like the idea of a full unarmed eldritch knight...

[Trandir]

Much better! Why don't you let it scale with level? I like the idea of a full unarmed eldritch knight...

Shillelagh doesn't scale. And that is the same exact spell but for wizards.

It might be better but it loses the muscle wizard feel

[Lvl 2 Expert]

That is indeed the inspiration for this spell. So now wizards everywhere can finally cast Fist, and spellcasters can counterspell it.



Anyway if some of you think that this is umbalanced it can always mimic shillelagh

Tenser's Fist

Transmutation cantrip
Casting time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, M (a piece of cloth worth at least 1 cp)
Duration: 1 minute

You imbue your own body with arcane energy allowing you to perform great feats of strength.
For the duration of the spell you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using unarmed strike, the unarmed strikes are considered magical and their damage die becomes a d8.

Classes: wizard


This way no one can say that is unbalanced but I feel like it's also less intresting.

What is the downside of this over being a fighter? The big one I can find is the defensive side, you do the same damage (or more, as a caster's casting stat tends to be higher than a martial's strength) without expending any resources but you will keep it up for shorter because of the lack of armor and hitpoints.

I realize I'm arguing against a core low level spell here, but it feels a bit weird to me, being a cantrip with a casting time of a bonus action and no concentration.

On the other hand, at this level casters need a good way to stay useful after casting twice. As long as it doesn't scale any better than a fighter's attack it should be fine.

[Trandir]

What is the downside of this over being a fighter? The big one I can find is the defensive side, you do the same damage (or more, as a caster's casting stat tends to be higher than a martial's strength) without expending any resources but you will keep it up for shorter because of the lack of armor and hitpoints.

I realize I'm arguing against a core low level spell here, but it feels a bit weird to me, being a cantrip with a casting time of a bonus action and no concentration.

On the other hand, at this level casters need a good way to stay useful after casting twice. As long as it doesn't scale any better than a fighter's attack it should be fine.

This is shillelagh:


Shillelagh
cantrip transmutation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V S M (Mistletoe, a shamrock leaf, and a club or quarterstaff)
Duration: 1 minute
Classes: Druid
The wood of a club or quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.


This little thing is the best cantrip for druids at lv 1 since it will never deal less than 4 damage (assuming high wis as any druid should have).
The second version of Tenser's Fist is almost the same thing minus the need for a weapon for flavour.

If you ask at lv 1-4 then yes this put you on the same offensive melee level as a fighter or barbarian with no resources but far squishier.

From lv 5 and beyond martial classes will get melee attack support and/or multiattack so this cantrip would be just one of.

Also a caster won't use his feats to support one cantrip in favor of stat in lcrease, warcaster or recilient (con). OTOH a fighter with PAM and GWM will do fairly better in melee as it's supposed to be

[paddyfool]

Maybe go back to the original version, with a lower damage die but a knock back effect added on? Seems more evocative than the shillelagh one, and it has a bit more of a crowd control / keeping opponents out of melee with your mage element, without outclassing fighter damage etc. Maybe have it do d8 [scaling to 2d8 etc] + Str damage, and say "If you deal at least 5 damage with this spell, the target must take a Str saving check or be pushed back 5' ". (Although I may not be familiar enough with 5e to balance or word this right).

[Trandir]

Ok, I changed the cantrip a little. Now it should be balanced but it also keeps the feeling of muscle wizard.