[CSC] [SoP] The Pale Philosopher Playtest - New Class, Death Sphere expansion

[Mairn]

Welcome to the playtest for the Pale Philosopher, presented by Cobalt Sage Creations!
I loved working on this book, and I cant wait for you to get your first look at it.

This playtest contains:

The Pale Philosopher: A new sphere-casting base class that focuses on the dark and corrupting powers of necromancy. Alter your body with dark magics, raise a legion of undead, or master necromancy to allow you best deal with an undead threat!

Ten new archetypes: Four new archetypes to expand upon the abilities of the Pale Philosopher, as well as six archetypes for other classes. Have your Incanter go down the path of lichdom as an Aspirant of Lichdom, or your Barbarian fight beyond death as a Revenant.

An expansion to the Death Sphere: Twenty-three new talents for the Death sphere help to empower your necromancers, allowing you to perform new feats of strength or empower some of the abilities you may already know and love.

Brand new feats: Combine the death sphere with other powers with some of the books new Dual-Sphere feats, such as Empowering Tomb which allows you to store your undead inside of you to empower your body with transmutations.

Studying Death - The Pale Philosopher - Public Playtest

[Madsamurai]

The phylactery feels like a sad talent. In most campaigns 2 weeks may be more then the length of the campaign. And the fact that you can't even raise the character early so it feels like often having the talent is bad for you.

I'm thinking I'd take a page from the reincarnated druid: have it work immediately, but only once per week or once per level. Whichever is shorter.


It's strange that Arm of Undeath and the specter touch deal untyped damage. That's kinda immersion breaking. I think it's fine to have your abilities not work on some enemies. The pale philosopher has plenty of tools to fight the undead. Those talents should deal negative energy damage, and maybe apply status effects to the undead like chill touch.

[Mairn]

Thanks for checking out the class!

The phylactery feels like a sad talent. In most campaigns 2 weeks may be more then the length of the campaign. And the fact that you can't even raise the character early so it feels like often having the talent is bad for you.

I'm thinking I'd take a page from the reincarnated druid: have it work immediately, but only once per week or once per level. Whichever is shorter.

Yeah, good point. Might look into tweaking it. My worry is mostly that the reincarnated druid is trading a decent amount of power for their reincarnate, whereas the Pale Philosopher is only trading a secret.

It's strange that Arm of Undeath and the specter touch deal untyped damage. That's kinda immersion breaking. I think it's fine to have your abilities not work on some enemies. The pale philosopher has plenty of tools to fight the undead. Those talents should deal negative energy damage, and maybe apply status effects to the undead like chill touch.

Undecided about this, may give it another pass as some point. Negative energy gives it some weird qualities and makes it effectively untyped damage against almost every enemy in the game already, and then requires adding a section about alternate effects against undead.

[Castilonium]

Great to see more stuff from you, Mairn! I loved the Stormbound . And I love what I see in this playtest so far!

Corrupted Attunement:
Is this supposed to specify charisma instead of casting ability modifier?

Rites of Familiarity:
This is much weaker than the other three Rites of Specialization. Aside from being niche, its bonuses are pretty low even in a game where undead are common. On top of that, it requires a successful identification, meaning it has the possibility to fail, unlike similar abilities like Favored Enemy.

Warrior Philosopher:
At first, I was happy because this is a full BAB + 20 blended talents archetype, which Spheres is lacking in. Then I realized that it gains d10 HD and full BAB, keeps full CL with death sphere, and loses absolutely nothing else. The only downside it has compared to a regular pale philosopher is that it's a lowcaster for non-death spheres. Character concept-wise, that's a problem for people who want to play a squishy death-specialized caster without relying on other spheres. There's no reason at all for them to not simply be a warrior philosopher and gain free HP, attack bonus, and a martial tradition.

Also, a warrior philosopher can use the Arm of Undeath secret much better than a pale philosopher can. People often cite doomblade mageknights and sages as some of the most powerful classes in part because of their scaling damage touch attacks that can be used as a weapon. I can't defend the sage since it's astronomically ludicrously powerful for many other reasons, but at least the doomblade mageknight is tempered by its low talent count and lowcasting in destruction sphere. Warrior philosophers still have full CL with death sphere and can even rise beyond that with Rites of Debilitation.

Commander of Undeath:
Because of its small number of talents and the fact that warrior philosophers lose no class features, the warrior philosopher actually does the schtick of "death knight with an army of undead minions" better than the Commander of Undeath. Smite Good and Unholy Resilience are nice features, but I don't think the overall antipaladin's package can compete with the warrior philosopher's Secrets of Death, Rites of Specialization, 20 blended talents, and full CL with ghost strikes.

Knight of the Grave:
It's not as powerful as the warrior philosopher or the doomblade mageknight, so that's good. The problem is that it trades out a lot of stuff for thematic abilities that don't mesh together mechanically. What full BAB character really would use full CL for both destruction and death?

Necromancer Hedgewitch Tradition Benefit:
Remember that any class that can get rogue talents can also get hedgewitch tradition benefits via Amateur X secrets. A lot of tradition benefits simply grant a sphere, but this grants full CL with reanimate. Probably not a problem, but just letting you know.

Overall, everything looks fantastic and exciting!

[Mairn]

Great to see more stuff from you, Mairn! I loved the Stormbound . And I love what I see in this playtest so far!

Thanks! I am glad you like it!

Corrupted Attunement:
Is this supposed to specify charisma instead of casting ability modifier?

Yup, just a small benefit for a Charisma-based Pale Philosopher, since generally Wisdom and Intelligence will be stronger choices for their casting stat.

Rites of Familiarity:
This is much weaker than the other three Rites of Specialization. Aside from being niche, its bonuses are pretty low even in a game where undead are common. On top of that, it requires a successful identification, meaning it has the possibility to fail, unlike similar abilities like Favored Enemy.

Yeeeeah. It might be worth just removing the identification, or giving a flat buff versus undead that is increased by identification. I just like the flavor behind identifying a specific type of undead, and knowing a bunch of specific information that allows you to better take it down.

Warrior Philosopher:
At first, I was happy because this is a full BAB + 20 blended talents archetype, which Spheres is lacking in. Then I realized that it gains d10 HD and full BAB, keeps full CL with death sphere, and loses absolutely nothing else. The only downside it has compared to a regular pale philosopher is that it's a lowcaster for non-death spheres. Character concept-wise, that's a problem for people who want to play a squishy death-specialized caster without relying on other spheres. There's no reason at all for them to not simply be a warrior philosopher and gain free HP, attack bonus, and a martial tradition.

Yeah. I feel like its just an issue with the Death sphere and how Reanimate scales with caster level. If you don't have full caster level with the Death sphere, it's basically a non-option to try and make the character a viable necromancer. Your undead will simply be too squishy and have too low AB/AC/Damage to be worth using over simply spending your talents elsewhere.

Also, a warrior philosopher can use the Arm of Undeath secret much better than a pale philosopher can. People often cite doomblade mageknights and sages as some of the most powerful classes in part because of their scaling damage touch attacks that can be used as a weapon. I can't defend the sage since it's astronomically ludicrously powerful for many other reasons, but at least the doomblade mageknight is tempered by its low talent count and lowcasting in destruction sphere. Warrior philosophers still have full CL with death sphere and can even rise beyond that with Rites of Debilitation.

This one is a bit by design.

Commander of Undeath:
Because of its small number of talents and the fact that warrior philosophers lose no class features, the warrior philosopher actually does the schtick of "death knight with an army of undead minions" better than the Commander of Undeath. Smite Good and Unholy Resilience are nice features, but I don't think the overall antipaladin's package can compete with the warrior philosopher's Secrets of Death, Rites of Specialization, 20 blended talents, and full CL with ghost strikes.

Some good points here, but Antipaladin does grant a handful of unique benefits that can be really powerful. Might be worth another pass on it to see if it can't be tweaked. Maybe just making it full CL with Death sphere, instead of just Reanimate?

Knight of the Grave:
It's not as powerful as the warrior philosopher or the doomblade mageknight, so that's good. The problem is that it trades out a lot of stuff for thematic abilities that don't mesh together mechanically. What full BAB character really would use full CL for both destruction and death?

Death and Destruction actually have a handful of feats that interact really well together. Ghostly Admixture, Corpse Explosion, and Flexible Ghost Strike all allow a really fun Destruction+Ghost Strike+Reanimate blaster.

Necromancer Hedgewitch Tradition Benefit:
Remember that any class that can get rogue talents can also get hedgewitch tradition benefits via Amateur X secrets. A lot of tradition benefits simply grant a sphere, but this grants full CL with reanimate. Probably not a problem, but just letting you know.

Yeah, it is mostly just an issue with how CL scales with Reanimate (and how mediocre and pointless Reanimate can be if you don't have full CL scaling on it).

Overall, everything looks fantastic and exciting!

Thanks! I'm going to let comments keep coming in for a few days, and then start doing some touch-ups and rewrites over the next week. Keep your eyes open for an update post here!

[Madsamurai]

Thanks for checking out the class!



Yeah, good point. Might look into tweaking it. My worry is mostly that the reincarnated druid is trading a decent amount of power for their reincarnate, whereas the Pale Philosopher is only trading a secret.



Undecided about this, may give it another pass as some point. Negative energy gives it some weird qualities and makes it effectively untyped damage against almost every enemy in the game already, and then requires adding a section about alternate effects against undead.

My thinking with the phylactery is that death, in most games, just does not happen. At low levels, hero points generally prevent death, and at higher levels raise dead and friends mean you're back in the game as soon as the cleric can pray.

You could balance the phylactery by maybe giving it a cost to craft?


I think that using negative energy instead of untyped damage leads to better versimultitude. Also it means that constructs are immune :)

[Mairn]

My thinking with the phylactery is that death, in most games, just does not happen. At low levels, hero points generally prevent death, and at higher levels raise dead and friends mean you're back in the game as soon as the cleric can pray.

You could balance the phylactery by maybe giving it a cost to craft?


I think that using negative energy instead of untyped damage leads to better versimultitude. Also it means that constructs are immune :)

The original version of Phylactery did have an upfront cost and was stronger, but getting the price point to scale properly was becoming too difficult to not make the cost of reviving trivial at high levels, and actually affordable at the lowest level you could select it (2nd). The ability likely needs a few tweaks to make it worth using, but I don't really want it to be so strong that it is an optimal choice for every character in every game. Negating the penalties for death is a pretty tricky balance point.

As far as the negative energy thing goes... maybe. I don't actually mind it being able to damage constructs, because I was basing it more off of the Corrupting Touch ability of ghosts, which deals untyped damage (1d6/HD Fort Halves for ghosts vs 1d6+Casting + 1d6/4 levels no save for Arm of Undeath). The damage being untyped also makes it a lot simpler to use in play, especially when it is potentially replacing weapon attacks.

[StSword]

Yeah, good point. Might look into tweaking it. My worry is mostly that the reincarnated druid is trading a decent amount of power for their reincarnate, whereas the Pale Philosopher is only trading a secret.

Considering that the raise the dead type spells require that the subject be willing to begin with, it seems to me that mechanically and storywise, if the phylactory acts as a backup plan, so that it doesn't prevent other means of resurrection if the opportunity arrives first, might be a good option.

[Mithril Leaf]

Just gotta say I deeply appreciate the inclusion of Exalted Undead, as the insistence of baseline Pathfinder on Undead being evil is quite obnoxious.

[Mairn]

Considering that the raise the dead type spells require that the subject be willing to begin with, it seems to me that mechanically and storywise, if the phylactory acts as a backup plan, so that it doesn't prevent other means of resurrection if the opportunity arrives first, might be a good option.

I will consider this as an option when I do a rewrite pass later this week, the only issue is that it goes against the flavor of a phylactery, in that it stores your soul and immediately begins rebuilding your body. It would also pose as a vulnerability for the phylactery user, if they were captured and revived by their foes (this would mostly be a vulnerability for NPCs though). I can see the balance concerns, so maybe a clause that if you are willing, you can be revived?

Just gotta say I deeply appreciate the inclusion of Exalted Undead, as the insistence of baseline Pathfinder on Undead being evil is quite obnoxious.

Can't take full credit for this, since rules for non-evil undead can be found in the Necromancer's Handbook, but I still felt like an inclusive for unequivocally non-evil undead was a fun idea.

[Castilonium]

Mairn, I see what you mean about Reanimate being awful if you don't have full CL. But there are some ghost strikes that are very potent with high CL, so it's a balance risk to give full BAB classes full CL with ghost strikes. Bleeding Wounds's damage is getting buffed in USoP and can combined with Iai Slash from duelist sphere for double damage + bloodied strike's additional bleed, then turned into THP via blood sphere's Absorb Blood. Hunger is a lot of semi-combat-incurable damage and a debuff. Vampiric Strike is a lot of damage and THP without needing to dip into blood sphere or duelist sphere.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Perhaps make them a Low Caster with an undead HD pool equivalent to that of a full caster? That way they can animate normally but lose out on the Ghost Strikes and other CL-dependent stuff?

[Mairn]

Mairn, I see what you mean about Reanimate being awful if you don't have full CL. But there are some ghost strikes that are very potent with high CL, so it's a balance risk to give full BAB classes full CL with ghost strikes. Bleeding Wounds's damage is getting buffed in USoP and can combined with Iai Slash from duelist sphere for double damage + bloodied strike's additional bleed, then turned into THP via blood sphere's Absorb Blood. Hunger is a lot of semi-combat-incurable damage and a debuff. Vampiric Strike is a lot of damage and THP without needing to dip into blood sphere or duelist sphere.

Using Iai Slash to double the damage of Bleeding Wounds doesn't feel like it works RAI or RAW, even when using Cryptic Strike. It isn't the weapon dealing the bleed damage, it is the ghost strike.

Cryptic Strike [Core]

As a standard action, you may make a single ranged or melee attack coupled with a ghost strike. If the attack hits, the target is also affected by the ghost strike.

Iai Slash (bleed)

Whenever you deal bleed damage to a creature in the same round that you draw the weapon used to deal that damage, that bleed damage is doubled for 1 round. If a creature is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an attack modified with this talent, you may instantly sheathe your weapon as a free action.

The weapon isn't being used to deal the damage, the weapon is being used to deliver the Ghost Strike that is dealing the bleed damage. This might be something that needs to be brought up in either with the SoM / SoP authors though to clarify it for sure, but it isn't a combo I would allow in any of my games.

Perhaps make them a Low Caster with an undead HD pool equivalent to that of a full caster? That way they can animate normally but lose out on the Ghost Strikes and other CL-dependent stuff?

Yeah, making it so they only have High-casting for Reanimate would probably be the best way to balance it right now, if the consensus is that it is too strong.
Makes me worry that the Warrior Philosopher will just be a worse version of the Brutal Necromancer Necros though, and that the Warrior Philosopher will be sort of one-note. Maybe it can choose between having Full CL for Reanimate or Ghost Strike? That way it isn't being forced into a necromancer playstyle.

[Castilonium]

Yeah, making it so they only have High-casting for Reanimate would probably be the best way to balance it right now, if the consensus is that it is too strong.
Makes me worry that the Warrior Philosopher will just be a worse version of the Brutal Necromancer Necros though, and that the Warrior Philosopher will be sort of one-note. Maybe it can choose between having Full CL for Reanimate or Ghost Strike? That way it isn't being forced into a necromancer playstyle.

I hadn't examined the necros or brutal necromancer necros before, but now that I have... Wow. I guess the precedent for a full BAB + full death CL champion has already been set. And the brutal necromancer doesn't lose any class features from base necros either, just like the warrior philosopher doesn't lose any class features from pale philosopher. It'd be unfair to ask you to to nerf it at this point. I think it was a design flaw on the part of the brutal necromancer necros' author, but there's nothing to do about it now.

Still, there needs to be some incentive for people to want to play a squishy d6 death-specialized pale philosopher over a warrior philosopher. Maybe you could add or change some Secrets of Death that are great for death highcasters but can't be taken by warrior philosophers, or change the way some of the Rites of Specialization work when taken by warrior philosophers. There is incentive to be a regular necros over a brutal necromancer because a regular necros can fleshcraft their non-Corpse Puppet minions.

[AlienFromBeyond]

The weapon isn't being used to deal the damage, the weapon is being used to deliver the Ghost Strike that is dealing the bleed damage. This might be something that needs to be brought up in either with the SoM / SoP authors though to clarify it for sure, but it isn't a combo I would allow in any of my games.

IIRC it has before and been okay'd, because the weapon being used to deliver that damage is as far as basically anything else in the game works also means the weapon is being used to deal that damage. I think that was the reasoning anyways.

I think it was a design flaw on the part of the brutal necromancer necros' author, but there's nothing to do about it now.

Agreed, Brutal Necromancer is brutally broken, but even base Necros is iffy at best on balance, certainly above the rest of the LSP spheres classes. But as you say, everyone will make the comparison (despite being a totally different non-DDS publisher).

[Mairn]

I hadn't examined the necros or brutal necromancer necros before, but now that I have... Wow. I guess the precedent for a full BAB + full death CL champion has already been set. And the brutal necromancer doesn't lose any class features from base necros either, just like the warrior philosopher doesn't lose any class features from pale philosopher. It'd be unfair to ask you to to nerf it at this point. I think it was a design flaw on the part of the brutal necromancer necros' author, but there's nothing to do about it now.

Still, there needs to be some incentive for people to want to play a squishy d6 death-specialized pale philosopher over a warrior philosopher. Maybe you could add or change some Secrets of Death that are great for death highcasters but can't be taken by warrior philosophers, or change the way some of the Rites of Specialization work when taken by warrior philosophers. There is incentive to be a regular necros over a brutal necromancer because a regular necros can fleshcraft their non-Corpse Puppet minions.

I still probably needs at least some tweaks to make it not always the better choice for a Pale Philosopher who only plans to take the Death sphere. Will brainstorm some stuff at some point this week.

IIRC it has before and been okay'd, because the weapon being used to deliver that damage is as far as basically anything else in the game works also means the weapon is being used to deal that damage. I think that was the reasoning anyways.

That is... a questionable balance decision for them to make, since it potentially opens up so many problems, but I will stand by their decision.

Agreed, Brutal Necromancer is brutally broken, but even base Necros is iffy at best on balance, certainly above the rest of the LSP spheres classes. But as you say, everyone will make the comparison (despite being a totally different non-DDS publisher).

Yeah, it is an issue. I don't think Necros is particularly overpowered, but the chassis just encourages a singular focus on the Death Sphere and then spending your other talents on SoM, so Brutal Necromancer isn't really a fair trade for the class.

[Mithril Leaf]

You may wish to consider possible interactions between Animate Specter and Corpse Forge, as currently it allows you to surpass the HD limits. Also mild issue, but the BAB at 2 HD for specters should only be +1.

[Mairn]

You may wish to consider possible interactions between Animate Specter and Corpse Forge, as currently it allows you to surpass the HD limits. Also mild issue, but the BAB at 2 HD for specters should only be +1.

Yeah I noticed the BaB issue for specters, already been corrected in my update file that I havent added to the public doc yet.

Corpse Forge is a good point. Might just make it so Specters can't be forged/amalgamated.

[Mairn]

The playtest has received its first major rewrite pass, bringing it to version 0.02.

A list of changes and rewrites can be found here.

Warrior Philosopher has not yet received any changes. I am currently still brainstorming what (if any) tweaks I want to make to it that still allow it to exist and fulfill a niche of warrior-necromancer without overshadowing a Death-Specialist Pale Philosopher or ruining the Warrior Philosopher's viability.

[Karl Aegis]

So this class is NOT for followers of Pharasma, Lady of Graves? I don't see a goddess of Death really appreciating this Death sphere class.

Oh... Death sphere is power over unlife.... not actual.... death.... Pathfinder weird.

[Mairn]

So this class is NOT for followers of Pharasma, Lady of Graves? I don't see a goddess of Death really appreciating this Death sphere class.

Oh... Death sphere is power over unlife.... not actual.... death.... Pathfinder weird.

It's a SoP thing. With sphere-specific drawbacks you can entirely drop the Reanimation ability, and then focus on non-reanimate secrets and Ghost Strike to make a more Pharasma-focused Pale Philosopher. Could be some interesting RP.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hmmmmm...

So what actually happens when you release an undead graft? It is still mostly just an arm or leg attached to your body.

[Mairn]

Hmmmmm...

So what actually happens when you release an undead graft? It is still mostly just an arm or leg attached to your body.

You cannot release them, only destroy them. "Whenever you choose to release or destroy undead under your control, you can choose to destroy one of these grafted limbs."

[Madsamurai]

The playtest has received its first major rewrite pass, bringing it to version 0.02.

A list of changes and rewrites can be found here.

Warrior Philosopher has not yet received any changes. I am currently still brainstorming what (if any) tweaks I want to make to it that still allow it to exist and fulfill a niche of warrior-necromancer without overshadowing a Death-Specialist Pale Philosopher or ruining the Warrior Philosopher's viability.

I like your new phylactery power! It still feels like I wouldn't pick it 4 times, but I like that it gives the cleric time to res you but still gives wipe protection :) now I want to build a death/life character that is all about keeping his friends alive no matter what!

[Mairn]

I like your new phylactery power! It still feels like I wouldn't pick it 4 times, but I like that it gives the cleric time to res you but still gives wipe protection :) now I want to build a death/life character that is all about keeping his friends alive no matter what!

Thanks! I feel like the new one is just more useful altogether, without being too overpowered for the cost.
Picking it four times is probably *really* overkill for most games, but it would be really fun/annoying in a solo game/on an NPC.

[Mithril Leaf]

So what is the effect of Exalted Undead when applied to Unlife from the Loam? I would assume they default to True Neutral barring any bizarre terrain features. Are they to be counted to humanoids or animals depending on the form you choose for them?

[EldritchWeaver]

I'd like to chime in that DDS deliberately avoided giving low-casters a full-casting to any sphere. At most for a subset of it. If you aim for balance, do not include 3PP sphere classes.

[Mairn]

So what is the effect of Exalted Undead when applied to Unlife from the Loam? I would assume they default to True Neutral barring any bizarre terrain features. Are they to be counted to humanoids or animals depending on the form you choose for them?

I would leave it up the GM in such a situation, but I would personally rule it as the above.

I'd like to chime in that DDS deliberately avoided giving low-casters a full-casting to any sphere. At most for a subset of it. If you aim for balance, do not include 3PP sphere classes.

That is true. Warrior Philosopher probably needs to be tweaked at some point, its just difficult to balance Reanimation around Low/Mid-Casters without it being a useless trap option since it can't be bolstered by Implements.

[astrerouge]

I really like the class and option but there is one aspect that i feel is not explored. Namely what happens if you play an undead pale philosopher, you gain loads of abilities that gets you closer to undeath but should you play one these abilities are redundant
I was thinking maybe an archetype or just some alternate class feature but id like to know what you think about such thing.
Of course i say that with a 3.5 mindset where it is kind of easy to be undead with necropolitan and pathfinder doesnt seem to have 0 la undead.

[Mairn]

I really like the class and option but there is one aspect that i feel is not explored. Namely what happens if you play an undead pale philosopher, you gain loads of abilities that gets you closer to undeath but should you play one these abilities are redundant
I was thinking maybe an archetype or just some alternate class feature but id like to know what you think about such thing.
Of course i say that with a 3.5 mindset where it is kind of easy to be undead with necropolitan and pathfinder doesnt seem to have 0 la undead.

Hmmm.

An Archetype without Corruptions could be interesting.
There aren't really any pure-undead races in Pathfinder for player characters, so I am not particularly upset by an Undead taking the class losing some power.