The Fifth Color

[Squire Doodad]

The Dark One couldn't grant spells before becoming a god, so we know that such things are not impediments to becoming gods. We do know, however, that all gods can grant spells and are sentient, so I think it's safe to assume Banjo would have gained sentience upon becoming a god.

We also know, of course, that Banjo did not become a god.

"Wherefore Elan can speak, Banjo must be silent"

[Emanick]

Sure she did. They just got killed really fast. And then even the high-powered ones got killed really fast!

She had no living clerics, but she definitely talked about having undead clerics.

Well, sure, but there were almost certainly periods when she had no undead clerics, either. (And even if there weren't, she wouldn't have stopped being a deity if the undead clerics had all been bumped off.)

[Peelee]

Well, sure, but there were almost certainly periods when she had no undead clerics, either. (And even if there weren't, she wouldn't have stopped being a deity if the undead clerics had all been bumped off.)

True, I should have said "capable of granting spells" to make the intent more clear.

[Roland Itiative]

Giggles might be able to grant spells, a group of a hundred or so orcs is about the size of a small town in greco-roman times, and plenty of those had a "patron deity". So if we assume a small town (say, in the middle of the Western continent) was worshipping a dead unicorn as their god and that the resulting deity could grant Cleric spells of some sort, then the same applies to Giggles. Banjo doesn't have quite the same flow of worship though, which means Banjo probably has even less power.

If any entity with a hundred sentients believing in a god was enough for ascencion, we'd probably have a ton of ascended gods. That greco-roman comparison just doesn't make much sense, as it clearly doesn't apply here.

Usually in DnD worlds, ascended deities require either a lot of personal power at their time of life (read being an epic or near-epic level character) or patronage from already-existing gods. The former seems to be how The Dark One ascended, and the latter almost happened to Banjo as a punchline, but never came to pass. We don't know what method the elven gods used to ascend, but it could be either of them, or a combination of the two. Even then, a freshly ascended being is still unable to grant spells, they need to gather a considerable amount of worshippers in order to increase their divine rank and gain that ability. Now, the Giant is known to break away from the RAW whenever he feels like taking the story in a different direction, but we haven't seem much evidence of this being the case here.

As for the Creed of Stone, the idea that Earth elementals are responsible for the spell-granting is frankly weird, and it stands to reason that they should have a divine aura and thus a vote in the Godsmoot. Eh, maybe they're blue auras as well, and would just get a vote in the third instance, in case the demigods also tied.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's a plot point that the non-theistic churches (including the Elementalists) get zero representation at the Godsmoot level.

[RatElemental]

Neither rocks nor puppets have a vote at the godsmoot, and neither has the power to seal the rift.

The Dark one doesn't have a vote either. That's due to having no formal position within the pre-existing covenants the gods have forged, and has nothing at all to do with godhood. Mortal Clerics could theoretically be granted a vote at the godsmoot if the gods voted to allow that I'm sure.

Also, atheistic clerics are kind of a weird mess in oots, but I'm sure the giant has as much interest in explaining the finer details and smoothing out how they work as he does in explaining how the magic system in cyberpunk snack food world worked. All we really have is that the creed of the stone doesn't get their spells from any gods, and earth elementals/Dao might be the ones supplying them.

[Dion]

Do Banjo and Giggles have a quiddity?

I argue they do not.

The Giant described quiddity using the same language used to describe Hawking radiation from a black hole. My personal headcannon is that staggeringly massive amounts of belief, worship, dedication, and souls are needed to collapse into a divine singularity before emitting a quiddity.

We know most stellar objects floating around the universe don’t have enough mass to collapse into a singularity and emit Hawking radiation; it seems reasonable to assume that most objects of worship (such as banjo, rocks, trees, dead orcs, etc.) never accrue enough divine “mass” to collapse into a divine singularity and emit a quiddity.

So the question in my mind is not whether or not banjo is sentient, or grants spells, or has clerics, or could ascend, or has ascended, or could vote, or could seal the rift, or whatever. Those are just side discussions unrelated to the question at hand.

The only question I’m interested in is whether Banjo has enough worship, belief, dedication, and souls needed to collapse into a divine singularity.

I believe he does not have anywhere near enough, so he is not even remotely close to having a quiddity.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Dark one doesn't have a vote either. That's due to having no formal position within the pre-existing covenants the gods have forged, and has nothing at all to do with godhood. Mortal Clerics could theoretically be granted a vote at the godsmoot if the gods voted to allow that I'm sure.

Also, atheistic clerics are kind of a weird mess in oots, but I'm sure the giant has as much interest in explaining the finer details and smoothing out how they work as he does in explaining how the magic system in cyberpunk snack food world worked. All we really have is that the creed of the stone doesn't get their spells from any gods, and earth elementals/Dao might be the ones supplying them.

That's not on Rich. Non-theistic clerics are a mess in D&D because they really don't fit in with the established mythos. Rich is just dealing with that.

[Peelee]

That's not on Rich. Non-theistic clerics are a mess in D&D because they really don't fit in with the established mythos. Rich is just dealing with that.

I'd argue that they do fit, as a clerical extension of druidic power sources. Of course, you could argue that doesn't fit the mythos, of course...

[Rogar Demonblud]

It doesn't, really. Power either comes from the divine hierarchy or spellbooks, which is why druids always used to be tied to a specific deity. But then they added bards getting magic from music, and druids from a generic nature, and sorcerers, and...

Really, once again D&D needs to be pulled apart and reassembled. Either make the rules fit the mythos, or the mythos fit the rules.

[Roland Itiative]

It does actually make sense, myth-wise. Divine magic comes from faith, usually channeled through a god. Godless clerics are just skipping the middle-man. The power technically doesn't originate from the gods, it originates from the mortals' faith, goes to the god, and the god sends it back in the form of granted spells.

Likewise, arcane magic isn't in the spellbooks, or even the spells themselves, these things are just a gateway to access whatever magic is (the Weave in Forgotten Realms, for instance), with other alternate means being possible.

[Squire Doodad]

snap

So what you are suggesting is that Banjo/Giggles can be a god, but that doesn't mean they've acquired sufficient power to achieve a quiddity?

[Riftwolf]

So what you are suggesting is that Banjo/Giggles can be a god, but that doesn't mean they've acquired sufficient power to achieve a quiddity?

Do we have estimates for how much times elapsed since we left the orc island worshipping Giggles?
From memory in SoD, it took a while for TDO to ascend after his death. Perhaps, just perhaps, if we all shut up about Banjo and let the subject die, then he might ascend.

[Squire Doodad]

Do we have estimates for how much times elapsed since we left the orc island worshipping Giggles?
From memory in SoD, it took a while for TDO to ascend after his death. Perhaps, just perhaps, if we all shut up about Banjo and let the subject die, then he might ascend.

Nonsense! Our fussing is what gives him power!

[ElderSage]

If Banjo and/or Giggles has a fifth quiddity, then they must have the four pieces that Thor said were essential for the gods. They probably have some small amount of Belief and Worship from that orc tribe and Elan, but how much Dedication and Souls could they possibly have? At most, it's from that orc tribe, so... presumably, some of them could have died since they gained Giggles as their god. Except every dedication/soul that they receive is that much less belief/worship because their followers are so limited.

Although, maybe the religion totally spread after Elan left...