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Thread: The Fifth Color

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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    The orc tribe might not worship the blue gods due to being a neglected monster our race. They don’t appear to have worshipped one of the existing pantheons previously, similar to the goblins not worshipping any gods before TDO.
    They worshiped some generic land spirit, but yeah they might be unaffiliated with any quiddity at the moment. In that case it'd probably be yellow because of Elan.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    They worshiped some generic land spirit, but yeah they might be unaffiliated with any quiddity at the moment. In that case it'd probably be yellow because of Elan.
    If orcs aren’t affiliated with a pantheon because they are monstrous humanoids, it’s actually possible that after certain politics shake out the Purple pantheon could end up looking to expand to other monster races to try to increase their total Belief (it’s implied being part of a large pantheon know by huge numbers is beneficial to the gods) and look to the puppet worshipping orcs. It’s possible that Elan will actually have managed stumble**** his way into actually getting his puppets deified. I don’t think this will be a big plot point but I can see it being a callback in the end.

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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    If orcs aren’t affiliated with a pantheon because they are monstrous humanoids, it’s actually possible that after certain politics shake out the Purple pantheon could end up looking to expand to other monster races to try to increase their total Belief (it’s implied being part of a large pantheon know by huge numbers is beneficial to the gods) and look to the puppet worshipping orcs. It’s possible that Elan will actually have managed stumble**** his way into actually getting his puppets deified. I don’t think this will be a big plot point but I can see it being a callback in the end.
    Feels like doing that would be a "oops, turns out the 4th quiddity problems would have been dealt with anyways once you stopped Xykon so Durkon's 'go chat with RC' arc didn't mean much!". However, the Giggles orcs will for sure be mentioned in the end/epilogue, just not with purple quiddity being a major plot point.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Feels like doing that would be a "oops, turns out the 4th quiddity problems would have been dealt with anyways once you stopped Xykon so Durkon's 'go chat with RC' arc didn't mean much!". However, the Giggles orcs will for sure be mentioned in the end/epilogue, just not with purple quiddity being a major plot point.
    I think that it might be a situation where Giggles does not have the power to ascend on his own but could be deified with purple sponsorship. This would prevent it from making the whole plot meaningless. We already know that many gods have ascended in this world and the prior worlds but out of all of them only TDO ascended with a new quidditch - it’s clearly a very special rare kind of ascension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I think that it might be a situation where Giggles does not have the power to ascend on his own but could be deified with purple sponsorship. This would prevent it from making the whole plot meaningless. We already know that many gods have ascended in this world and the prior worlds but out of all of them only TDO ascended with a new quidditch - it’s clearly a very special rare kind of ascension.
    I could see the "Banjo/Giggles ascend thanks to TDO" ending happening, that doesn't ruin anything. It's just the "Giggles would have been purple anyways" bit that would be off.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Feels like doing that would be a "oops, turns out the 4th quiddity problems would have been dealt with anyways once you stopped Xykon so Durkon's 'go chat with RC' arc didn't mean much!". However, the Giggles orcs will for sure be mentioned in the end/epilogue, just not with purple quiddity being a major plot point.
    I doubt the orcs have any 17th level clerics of Giggles right now, so i don’t believe they could seal the rift even if they wanted to.

    And even if the Orcs had a 17th level cleric, Giggles seems to be evil and capricious, so he may just let the world burn to harm Banjo.

    Also, Giggles is a puppet.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-25 at 08:47 AM.

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    Yeah I didn’t mean to suggest Giggles would’ve been purple all along, just that it’s possible that TDO would look to expand the purple pantheon by finding other candidates for deification among the mobsteroys humanoids. All the gods have an interest in purple surviving and it makes sense for it to evolve into a pantheon for the neglected humanoid races. It seems pretty strongly suggested that TDO’s ascension is unique and unlikely to happen again in the next few billion years if ever.

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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    i feel like the TDO might look more for unique monsters like himself then for puppets being worshiped though. He was a purple goblin who excelled in leadership and created an army. He may look for similar qualities among the other monsterus races. An albino orc with mystical arcane powers, A red-haired Drow who's killed thousands, but nobody knows her face. A Winged Kobold who's managed to take control of an entire tribe of half-dragon lizardfolk, etc.

    I could be wrong, but that just seems like the kind of things he may look for, the best of the best and the most unique of the best.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    i feel like the TDO might look more for unique monsters like himself then for puppets being worshiped though. He was a purple goblin who excelled in leadership and created an army. He may look for similar qualities among the other monsterus races. An albino orc with mystical arcane powers, A red-haired Drow who's killed thousands, but nobody knows her face. A Winged Kobold who's managed to take control of an entire tribe of half-dragon lizardfolk, etc.

    I could be wrong, but that just seems like the kind of things he may look for, the best of the best and the most unique of the best.
    To be fair, Giggles is precisely that kind of a monster. How many hand puppets managed to get an entire tribe of orcs to worship them?
    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    To be fair, Giggles is precisely that kind of a monster. How many hand puppets managed to get an entire tribe of orcs to worship them?
    ... Touché good sir. Touché.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    i feel like the TDO might look more for ......
    I kind of suspect that there's not alot of precise choice about who's available for deification. The orc zeitgeist exalts a zany hand puppet; tDO has the choice of sponsoring the hand puppet, nothing, or some dead orc hero that the orcs will get bored with.

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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I kind of suspect that there's not alot of precise choice about who's available for deification. The orc zeitgeist exalts a zany hand puppet; tDO has the choice of sponsoring the hand puppet, nothing, or some dead orc hero that the orcs will get bored with.
    "priest grugnug said we worship orc hero slamalan, but slamalan boring. all slamalan do is be decapitated and talk about attacking merchants to cut off supply lines. giggles god of power; giggles understand both warfare and diplomacy."
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-11-25 at 04:59 PM.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    i would presume he'd look for individuals who are still alive and doing great things. Probably grant them small boons in the form of items or powers, and if they become worthy enough, assisting them in ascending to godhood after some great death or something.


    Kind of pulling this idea from the Outsider in Dishonored. He just kinda looks for interesting people, gives them super powers in the form of his mark, and then watches as they perform great things with those powers, not really caring if they're good or evil. They probably would have still DONE those great things without the powers, but they're just doing it in more interesting ways now.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    To be fair, Giggles is precisely that kind of a monster. How many hand puppets managed to get an entire tribe of orcs to worship them?
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    The Dark One strikes me as the sort who would hoard all the divine power he can get for himself, assuming he even has enough to sponsor another god to join the pantheon.

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    Maybe, but being part of a pantheon seems to make both good and evil gods more powerful. He was an evil warlord and leader of a great army, not an evil loner villain.

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    Letting aside the idea that a joke character trivialising one of the main plots would be weird as heck as a storytelling device, I don't think Giggles/Banjo would necessarily get their own colour if they truly ascended. TDO seems to have gotten a different colour not just because he was unaffiliated with any other pantheon, but also because he was completely antagonistic towards all the other gods.

    Other ascended gods seem to take root in whatever pantheon their culture is affiliated with, with the elves becoming red gods being the prime example we have.

    Getting worship from a monster race also doesn't preclude a god from being from a pre-existing pantheon, as we've seen a demigod of giants in the Northern Pantheon, and Tiamat seems to be widely worshipped by dragons and kobolds in this world.
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    I don’t understand the difference between “real” gods like Thor and TDO vs. “fake” gods like Banjo, the orc hero Slamalan, or whatever it is the the Creed of Stone worships.

    But since Thor uses nearly the same language to describe quiddity that is used to describe Hawking radiation emitted from a black hole, it seems reasonable to suppose the “real” gods are something akin to black holes.

    Perhaps the gods with quiddity have accumulated such mind-boggling-super-massive quantities of worship, belief, dedication, and souls that their very existence warps and tears the fabric of time and space around them.

    If that’s the case, then Banjo next to Thor is like a little red clown nose compared to the supermassive black hole in the center of the Milky Way. Sure, they’re technically made of the same stuff, and in some sense the only difference is quantitative. If you just make that red nose super massive and super dense, it’s eventually going to turn into a black hole of its own.

    Sometimes quantity creates actual qualitative differences. Once you talk about singularities, the sorites paradox goes away.

    So one possibility is that Banjo is really actually qualitatively different than Thor, because Thor has such a massive amount of worship, belief, dedication, and souls to establish a divine singularity and Banjo does not.

    (This is one of the serious posts. Well, sort of. I’m never actually serious when I talk about ironic postmodern physics.)
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-26 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I don’t understand the difference between “real” gods like Thor and TDO vs. “fake” gods like Banjo, the orc hero Slamalan, or whatever it is the the Creed of Stone worships.
    Gods can grant spells to clerics. (That's actually practically the definition of a god in normal DND)

    Banjo cannot grant spells to clerics, he can barely even smite Roy. And that's assuming the tiny lightning bolt wasn't an illusion created by Elan for a joke.

    Slamalam does not canonically exist in any form to my knowledge, unless he's some sort of reference to bonus material I haven't read. If he was, though, he wouldn't be a god at all unless deified like the dark one. He'd just be a dead mortal.

    The Creed of Stone does not worship any gods, they revere the concept of earth itself. And according to word of giant are granted spells by various elder earth elementals and not in fact by deriving divine power from their belief in the power and stability of elemental earth itself like concept clerics in default 3.5 settings would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Gods can grant spells to clerics. (That's actually practically the definition of a god in normal DND)

    Banjo cannot grant spells to clerics, he can barely even smite Roy. And that's assuming the tiny lightning bolt wasn't an illusion created by Elan for a joke.

    Slamalam does not canonically exist in any form to my knowledge, unless he's some sort of reference to bonus material I haven't read. If he was, though, he wouldn't be a god at all unless deified like the dark one. He'd just be a dead mortal.

    The Creed of Stone does not worship any gods, they revere the concept of earth itself. And according to word of giant are granted spells by various elder earth elementals and not in fact by deriving divine power from their belief in the power and stability of elemental earth itself like concept clerics in default 3.5 settings would.
    Slamalam is a fake thing I came up with as a joke XD It's a nice enough name, but it's not real. Er, less real.

    Giggles might be able to grant spells, a group of a hundred or so orcs is about the size of a small town in greco-roman times, and plenty of those had a "patron deity". So if we assume a small town (say, in the middle of the Western continent) was worshipping a dead unicorn as their god and that the resulting deity could grant Cleric spells of some sort, then the same applies to Giggles. Banjo doesn't have quite the same flow of worship though, which means Banjo probably has even less power.

    Didn't know about the elder earth elemental bit, that's really neat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Gods can grant spells to clerics. (That's actually practically the definition of a god in normal DND)
    Giggles and Stone can both grant spells, and are therefore both gods. Neither rocks nor puppets have a vote at the godsmoot, and neither has the power to seal the rift.

    Therefore there is a difference between rocks and Thor.

    My question is: is this difference an actual qualitative difference between Thor and a pile of rocks? Or is there some sorites Paradox where all gods are qualitatively identical, and the only differences are quantitative?

    I was proposing an in-universe qualitative distinction between TDO and a powerful earth elemental, which would explain why earth elementals, which are gods that grant spells, are not gods with voting powers or the ability to seal the rift.

    And further, I was proposing why Banjo and Giggles, who may (or may not) be gods, and may (or may not) have the power to grant spells, would have any vote at the godsmoot or the ability to seal the rift.

    They might be actual gods, but until they reach supermassive black hole size they’re not going to generate a quiddity.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-26 at 02:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Giggles .... can grant spells
    [citation needed]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [citation needed]
    Ok, he might or might not. But according to the D20 rules, there’s absolutely no reason he couldn’t (which is the whole point of the Banjo joke).

    So my point is that saying “the definition of a god is in the rule book” is a pretty useless distinction between Giggles and Thor.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-26 at 02:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Ok, he might or might not. But according to the D20 rules, there’s absolutely no reason he couldn’t.
    And according to the D20 rules, Tsukiko got too many schools.

    Without even resorting to the rules, I think we can say that "no spells granted = not a god" is a decent enough differentiation*. If not that, then "too few followers" would work. Or lack of sentience.

    *and no reverse correlation neener neener!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And according to the D20 rules, Tsukiko got too many schools.

    Without even resorting to the rules, I think we can say that "no spells granted = not a god" is a decent enough differentiation*. If not that, then "too few followers" would work. Or lack of sentience.

    *and no reverse correlation neener neener!
    Was Hel not a god(dess) when she had no clerics to grant spells to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Was Hel not a god(dess) when she had no clerics to grant spells to?
    Well, she had the power to grant spells. In D20, everything has the power. It’s all gods there. Everything is a god, even gods.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-26 at 02:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Was Hel not a god(dess) when she had no clerics to grant spells to?
    There were like two Wights at all times that were maintaining her goddess status.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Was Hel not a god(dess) when she had no clerics to grant spells to?
    Sure she did. They just got killed really fast. And then even the high-powered ones got killed really fast!

    She had no living clerics, but she definitely talked about having undead clerics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And according to the D20 rules, Tsukiko got too many schools.

    Without even resorting to the rules, I think we can say that "no spells granted = not a god" is a decent enough differentiation*. If not that, then "too few followers" would work. Or lack of sentience.

    *and no reverse correlation neener neener!
    Thor and Odin seem to think Banjo at the very least could become a god by joining the pantheon, meaning his (likely) lack of sentience and ability to grant spells then wasn’t a problem, the question of whether or not Banjo+Giggles currently have enough worship and belief to be a god can’t really be adequately answered unless someone who would be able to know whether or not they are real gods says so.
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    Default Re: The Fifth Color

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Thor and Odin seem to think Banjo at the very least could become a god by joining the pantheon, meaning his (likely) lack of sentience and ability to grant spells then wasn’t a problem
    The Dark One couldn't grant spells before becoming a god, so we know that such things are not impediments to becoming gods. We do know, however, that all gods can grant spells and are sentient, so I think it's safe to assume Banjo would have gained sentience upon becoming a god.

    We also know, of course, that Banjo did not become a god.
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