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2019-11-18, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Last edited by Ventruenox; 2019-11-18 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Cleanup, Aisle D&D
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2019-11-18, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
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2019-11-18, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Vhaeraun actually offers a good alternative for drow who don't want a drastic change in their lifestyle, but want to be free from needless cruelty, and have a chance at surviving away from Lolth.
As for Eilistraee, she's a mother goddess to the drow, who only wants to help them heal from all the abuse they received since their childhood, rediscover all the beauty and joy that they were denied (alongside the strength in caring for each other), and find their own path in life. So many of her aspects are devoted to this; from the ritual of the Evensong, in which the drow let out their emoptions and experiences of the day for Eilistraee to listen (a moment of intimate connection that proves that they have value as people, unlike Lolth brainwashes them into believing), to her tendency to help her people in direct, practical ways in their everyday life (finding food, scaring off aggressors), to being always delicate and mindful to not force any choice on the drow, but helping them see for themselves what life can be, and choose on their own. To Eilistraee, it's not even about "redemption" (this word isn't even mentioned in Demihuman Deities or The Drow of the Underdark, for example, nor in Cunningham's depcition if her), but about helping the drow heal and be reborn from their ashes. Elaine makes this all clear in Starlights and Shadows, when it's said that, to Eilistraee(ns), it's important that each drow finds their own path, and the goddess and her followers can only help them in this journey, and never force them.
Eilistraee has also an entire order dedicated to risking their own life infiltrating Lolthite settlements just to help drow escape, and your generic preistesses has to save at least a drow per moon. With Eilistraee's own help, there's a non neglectable activity to help the drow escape from the misery forced upon them by Lolth.
Don't mind Smedman's/Atahans' depiction. First off, it has been ignored and then retconned by WoTC themselves, after being commissioned (according to Perkins) to make Drizzt "moar speshul". It's basically apocrypha at this point. Secondly, Smedman comes to the point of sniping specific, essential lines of canon of Eilistraee just to turn them upside down in the worst possible way to fit her narrative. For example, you have thgings like priestesses engaging in the mutilation males for watching the ances that they can take part in (in canon), dictation of faith, and militarism (stuff that is the hallmark of an evil faith, btw), when they're the exact opposite of all that (for example, Smedman has the priestesses demand wounded people to convert to Eilistraee before healing, when in canon priestesses are known to heal and feed all the needy and hungry met on the way, have a seasonal mission to travel around offering food, healing and their own arts to make friends with other races and because that's the right thing to do, etc...) She came to the point of moving Eilistraee's realm to another place just because her story needed so, or to entirely warp her goal and personality to contradict the very core of her belief, again to further her narrative (sacrificing the vast majority of the drow, the people for whom--in Evermeet--she chose to gave up all the comfort and luxury and power that she could have had, to walk a path of hardships that she was terrified of; whose battles she shared. All of that to *force* a needless physical change down the throats of a bunch of her followers, and passing this for "redemption", which is also really f***ed up on its own to begin with). The misanthropy of her followers is also BS, and contradicts previous representations (Cunningham's), the lore, and one of the core beliefs of Eilistraee, which is acceptance and freedom of expression.
That's just scratching the surface of Smedman's compeltely non-canon and distorted portrayal of Eilistraee. Just for a comparison, look at Elaine's portrayal.
Eilistraee helps Liriel a great deal in her journey, but she does that delicately. Eilistraee's subtle interventions lead Liriel to open her heart to the beauty of life, to sisterhood/brotherhood (for example, the first teleport spell cast by Liriel directs her to a group of "moondancers", and they are the first to welcome the young drow on the surface, and to show her genuine affection, which Liriel came to find tempting) to caring for other people, and accepting other people caring for her. The Dark Maiden helps Liriel to keep traveling, because the journey is the only way for the young priestess to open her eyes and break her chains.
In many key moments, it can be seen how Eilistraee provides Liriel with all she needs to keep following her heart, and how she genuinely cares for her. For example, it's the Dark Maiden's song that helps Liriel realize how to achieve the goal of her journey, to feel the rune that she needs to carve in the Yggdrasil so that her own magic could work on the surface. When Liriel is on the surface, Eilistraee makes her presence felt (at one time, the goddess herself even dances with the drow) to let her know that she's not alone. Another beautiful example can be found when Fyodor is on the verge of death. At that point, Liriel is so close to getting rid of Lolth (with whom she had struck a pact in exchange for power and help), yet she feels crushed because she has to summon the Spider Queen to save Fyodor, thus being forced to renew her allegiance. Instead, at that time, Eilistraee intervenes and makes Liriel glow with her own magic to bring Fyodor back from the brink of death, allowing the drow to fully embrace her own path, free from Lolth. As Elaine herself put it, to Liriel, despite her choice of becoming a priestess of Mystra, Eilistraee still symbolizes the sheer joy of existence, beauty, affection that she discovered in her journey to the surface--and that's what this goddess is supposed to be to the drow.
The interesting part is that, as I mentioned, Eilistraee's interaction with Liriel is very subtle. it's never intrusive or overt, it doesn't take much space, but in those few moments, Elaine really nails what Eilistraee is about (infinitely better than Sedman did in 4 whole books), and she delivers it perfectly.Last edited by Irennan; 2019-11-18 at 11:24 AM.
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2019-11-18, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Is it though? How would you define a character that strictly adheres to a code of conduct even if the code of conduct is anathema to the laws of the land in which they live? Does a lawful person adhere to any law they come across or the laws of the territory they are a citizen of first and foremost? It's the same for Good and Evil, what one society perceives as good can be considered bad by another as it is society or the individual that defines the underlying principles. The character alignment system in D&D is a guideline for how the general society perceives and defines moral dichotomy. Altruism can be harmful. Respect for life does not imply you wish to save all life, simply that you don't want it to be squandered. Concern for the dignity of sentient life can mean that you simply don't like torture. Hell, based on a strict reading of the SRD definition of good and evil, paladins can't be good because they commit evil acts all the time. They hurt, oppress, and kill all the time. And yet society calls it good because it is being done for their benefit.
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2019-11-18, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
This is common misunderstanding of what is means to be Lawful. The belief that order is necessary for the benefit of all things is the corner stone to a Lawful alignment, even if those exact laws might vary from place to place. In the grand scheme of things, it raises the group above the individual. Good vs Evil morality does not come into play until you choose to interject it into the system. For example; The best outcome for the group might be the slaughter of the weaker members, to preserve the strength of the nation. That is a lawful concept (and very evil). Following a personal code of conduct does not make you any more lawful than any one else, as it is a code of conduct that applies only to you (the individual). There are notable exceptions (such as the paladin code of conduct) but that does not serve as much of an exception, because they strive to model behavior that others should mimic.
It's the same for Good and Evil, what one society perceives as good can be considered bad by another as it is society or the individual that defines the underlying principles.
The biggest problem is that people unconsciously project a relativistic and subjective morality onto the alignment system in D&D when it is actually quite simple. We just make it complicated by trying to justify everything. Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil are all universal forces in the D&D universe. Trying to ignore their existence and pretend that just because one culture chooses to define something a different way, therefore alignment is wrong, is completely illogical. They are arguing with the forces of the universe and are simply wrong, no matter how much they want to believe otherwise. They are LITERALLY ignoring reality.Last edited by Eldonauran; 2019-11-18 at 06:18 PM.
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2019-11-18, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Not only is this evil, but quite counterproductive since not are alignments objective forces in D&D, the afterlife is a thing that exists and is known to exist. You can literally summon outsiders and ask them what happens to people when they die. What is a minute of air vs. eternity?
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2019-11-18, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Take the life boat example.
If you wait your turn and get the last seat, you are neutral.
If you give up your seat or go to the back of the line, you are good.
If you cut in line or push to the front, you are evil.
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2019-11-18, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- South Africa
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
So much this. I really don't get people's problems with alignment when it really is that simple.
That said, we should not conflate "good" the alignment with "good" meaning "desirable". A culture can recognise something is good aligned while disliking that thing and deciding they prefer evil.The Good Cat Mistress shall show mercy to her servants
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2019-11-19, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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2019-11-19, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
The thread was founded on the premise of actions, not the defining alignment itself. Yes, alignment is set in stone, but the whether the act is good or not is not. This may actually be where misunderstanding comes from.
The desire to survive at all costs does not make one evil and does not make one good. Let's take a very extreme example. Say you have a protagonist that can't die or the world goes boom. This protagonist doesn't want the world to end because they have family. Now comes the twist, everyone in the world is their enemy and is out to kill the protagonist because they believe that if the protagonist doesn't die the world will end. Is it evil then to want to survive at all costs because if they die billions of misguided innocents will die? Even if they are forced to torture, slaughter hundreds of thousands, and not spare noncombatants?
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2019-11-19, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
In D&D, the ends don't justify the means.
Even to save the universe, an act of torture is still an evil act, "not sparing noncombatants" is Murder and thus an Evil act, and so on.
The character might be Neutral if their every Evil act was genuinely "for the good of innocents" but their acts are unambiguously Evil.Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-11-19 at 05:31 AM.
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2019-11-19, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Wandering in Harrekh
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
"Is X Evil if taken to the extreme?"
Yes. Almost anything taken to the extreme is going to be Evil; that's kind of implicit in "extreme."
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2019-11-19, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
In the "fire in a crowded theater" example, doing what most people would do - running for the exits with abandon, potentially shoving or trampling someone - is neutral but cowardly. It would be entirely within reason for a Paladin to fall for such an act - the Good (and especially Exalted) thing to do would be to try and take command of the situation and make sure everyone else evacuates safely before you do. Evil would be intentionally impeding others for your benefit, hunting out the young, elderly and frail so that you can manhandle them out of your way, or barricading an exit once you've gone through it.
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2019-11-19, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
100%, this. The character might believe he is doing the right thing, and the entire world might agree with him that the innocents must die to save everyone else. But that does not change the nature of the action or the choice AT ALL. You must understand, and accept, that Good & Evil, Law & Chaos are just as much universal LAWS in the D&D universe, as we would accept mathematics and all the laws that are derived from them.
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2019-11-19, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
I'll give my two cents...
Shazuko didn't choose to be an assassin ( mostly a spy but when ordered to do so, he killed ). He didn't enjoy it. He stopped as soon as he could ( although more for pratical, rather than moral, reasons ).
I think there are two kind of "I was just following orders" situation.
1- Obeying orders to gain money, privileges, respect.
2- Obeying orders because you have a machine gun behind your back.
The first can still make moral choice. The second? Too, but not totally free moral choices.
Shazuko would not face demotion, loss of prestige or scorn if he disobejed, he would have been flayed alive and feed to the spiders. I played plenty of deliberately evil characters but I felt compassion for the drow that just wanted to survive.
And smoke opium. He smoked a lot of opium. Helped to cope.
In the "fire in a crowded theater" example, doing what most people would do - running for the exits with abandon, potentially shoving or trampling someone - is neutral but cowardly.Last edited by Conradine; 2019-11-19 at 02:53 PM.
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2019-11-19, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Then Shazuko is Neutral, at best. If he lacks the willingness to sacrifice his own happiness, safety, or even his life, to save or help the innocent, but he also feels remorse for the Evil actions he was forced to perform (yes, they are Evil, even if you felt you were forced to choose the option, because losing your life for making another choice is still a choice), this is a perfect example of a Neutral character on the Good/Evil axis. Even the Evil people can feel generosity towards others and help them if there is no risk to themselves. Even the Evil people can love someone strongly. But it all comes down to how far you are willing to go, to save yourself or someone else.
Shazuko is an interesting character. He is complicated, conflicted, but he knows himself even if he hates what he knows. I hope you have fun exploring his path.Last edited by Eldonauran; 2019-11-19 at 03:36 PM.
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2019-11-19, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
If he lacks the willingness to sacrifice his own happiness, safety, or even his life,
He would not deliberately risk the lives of others. He would not take bribes to hurt people, even if he was sure to escape punishment.
But when it comes down to his life, he's too craven. Too afraid of dying.
Even the Evil people can feel generosity towards others and help them if there is no risk to themselves. Even the Evil people can love someone strongly. But it all comes down to how far you are willing to go, to save yourself or someone else.
But the sad truth is, if they happened to be pursuited by an horde of zombies, he's the kind of person who puts a crossbow bolt in the knee of his friend to slow down the horde and save himself. He would suffer tremendously, feel guilty, hate himself...
but, hey, survival is survival.
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To be more specific: he would not blame anyone for acting that way, too. Not an hypocrite. He would never ask someone to give up life.
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Actually, there is one thing he would not do to survive. If faced with the prospect of torture ( es. capture by Lolth priestesses ) he would rather die or even kill himself.Last edited by Conradine; 2019-11-19 at 04:29 PM.
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2019-11-19, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Cowardice neither excuses Evil actions nor justifies Good ones. The character lacks the moral fortitude to firmly put himself in either the Good zone or the Evil zone, but is fully capable of performing both kinds of actions. This is a Neutral character. You can tag on "with Good tendencies" if you want, if it makes you feel a bit better about it. It depends entirely if you want an objective answer to your question, or one that placates your feelings.
Actually, there is one thing he would not do to survive. If faced with the prospect of torture ( es. capture by Lolth priestesses ) he would rather die or even kill himself.Last edited by Eldonauran; 2019-11-19 at 06:14 PM.
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2019-11-19, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Denver.
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2019-11-19, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Denver, CO
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
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2019-11-19, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
I suppose you can do that if you are so inclined. I usually don't bother. I understand that characters (and the people that design them) are highly complex and that alignment is not prescriptive, only descriptive. The character is whatever alignment they write down on character creation and it changes based on their actions over time. One of the biggest assumptions I make is that every character (and person) is capable of (and often feels) generosity, charity, avarice, greed, malice, envy, etc, etc, etc, etc. These things do not make them a certain alignment. How they behave and act on these traits is what makes them the alignment they are, and how often they act on these traits.
So, write down N(NG) on your sheet. When you are hit with Unholy Blight and it hardly hurts you, even without making the save, you get a more direct accounting of your alignment.Last edited by Eldonauran; 2019-11-19 at 08:02 PM.
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2019-11-20, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
But would he torture somebody else?
But if he was - example - prisoner of devils / Lolth's priestesses and he was said "it's you or him", he would break.
Cowardice neither excuses Evil actions
This is a Neutral character. You can tag on "with Good tendencies" if you want, if it makes you feel a bit better about it. It depends entirely if you want an objective answer to your question, or one that placates your feelings.Last edited by Conradine; 2019-11-20 at 09:57 AM.
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2019-11-20, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Forgiveness is a personal choice, just like the behavior was that lead to the betrayal. It has nothing to do with the objective reality that D&D sets with the forces of alignment. You are using subjective morality to view the situation and your responses to it change based on the intentions or situation. It is not an unreasonable approach to dealing with betrayal and is highly empathetic, for that I applaud you.
So, do you agree that's not an Evil character? I never tought he was Good. More "benevolent Neutral".
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2019-11-20, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
I read it as Evil.
Performing evil acts, even under duress, is still evil.
Now, as many others have already mentionned, one can still regret the acts after the fact and it just makes for an interesting character potentionally on a redemption arc.
The evil of the acts is not erased by regret, though.
The point is, your character doesn't need to revel in the evil it's causing, but if it performs these acts, it still taints its alignmenent towards Evil. Note that it's also true of Good acts, meaning that depending on the character's arc, it can easily be or become Neutral.
I think it more interesting to ping it Evil for play, and then actually have to work towards Good. But you know, that necessitates conscious atonement and actual effort, which seems to be at odds with the practical cravenly way your character is depicted so-far.
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2019-11-20, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
ANYTHING can be Evil if taken to extreme.
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2019-11-20, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- In the Heart of Europe
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Again, if he has no li9mits in what he would do to keep himself safe/Alive, then that means he is willing to commit unspeakably Evil (and evil) Acts.
As soon as he does those things, he will be at the very best slightly south of Neutral, at the worst one of the maniacs that endanger the world for their own plans.
In D&D that makes him clearly Evil with neutral tendencies (as you cant judge people only after what they do if they can freely choose without any outer influences, and neither only after what they would do to survive).
In our more relative real world, I would call him mad/Stupid, but not Evil.
However:
A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2019-11-20, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Isn't this exactly the argument a lich uses? "I value my life more than all others. As such, it is proper for me to make sacrifices to prolong my own life."
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2019-11-20, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Denver.
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Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2019-11-20, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Is the desire to survive Evil if taken to the extreme?
Not exactly the same, but related enough to draw logical thought between the two. The way I see it, is that most Evil creatures don't give much thought towards their Evil-ness. They 'see' things a certain way, such as the value of others compared to themselves, and seek to use that value as they see fit. What I find terrifying is those Evil creatures that fully know what they are doing, and choose to do so anyway.
Last edited by Eldonauran; 2019-11-20 at 07:32 PM.
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2019-11-20, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009