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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Is there any forums or guides for Pathfinder 2E? It's been out for a year and we happened to pick it up for our new campaign semi based in the Warhammer fantasy universe. But there's hardly anything online besides the srd.
    Every time I try to make progress on building a character, I get lost.
    For example I tried to make a sword & shield healing all around cleric, but I got confused reading. For example I'm told there is a point buy system, but I just see a crap ton of choices. I'm in analysis paralysis right now. I don't really have time for that anymore.

    Right now I got a war priest dwarf cleric that took the inflict route. The heritage is the speed ignore one. The background was battle medic. I took the deity with the Trident. This was from pathbuilder2e app.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    Is there any forums or guides for Pathfinder 2E? It's been out for a year and we happened to pick it up for our new campaign semi based in the Warhammer fantasy universe. But there's hardly anything online besides the srd.
    Every time I try to make progress on building a character, I get lost.
    For example I tried to make a sword & shield healing all around cleric, but I got confused reading. For example I'm told there is a point buy system, but I just see a crap ton of choices. I'm in analysis paralysis right now. I don't really have time for that anymore.

    Right now I got a war priest dwarf cleric that took the inflict route. The heritage is the speed ignore one. The background was battle medic. I took the deity with the Trident. This was from pathbuilder2e app.
    Just take a look at the character sheet, and, fill it in. As you are new to this game, hell, I don't know either, you could also just look at each term in the glossary or index and make sure it is covered? If you need help scene to scene, just apply logic to each 'test?' Hell, the game master is the one who tests the players, they make the calls... if they don't call, the game is not played it just flows, so, you need to just write down the glossary terms and play it through until the term reminds you of the scene, then learn, maybe?
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    FWIW, the few threads on Pathfinder 2 in the Giantitp forums are in the 3e section, though they are few and far between.

    I sometimes visit the Paizo Pathfinder 2 forums as well, but I agree with you that it is hard to find posts on Pathfinder 2.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by patchyman View Post
    FWIW, the few threads on Pathfinder 2 in the Giantitp forums are in the 3e section, though they are few and far between.

    I sometimes visit the Paizo Pathfinder 2 forums as well, but I agree with you that it is hard to find posts on Pathfinder 2.
    Thanks, I'll search those up. I have a feeling that pf2 is going to be a dud. I was expecting a surge of popularity for a few years.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    Thanks, I'll search those up. I have a feeling that pf2 is going to be a dud. I was expecting a surge of popularity for a few years.
    Paizo's forums for PF2 don't seem to have all that much activity either.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Nobody wanted PF2, and certainly not in the form it was released. It was, truthfully, time for a new edition despite the fact that nobody wanted one (especially Paizo's biggest fanboys, who have been adamantly against even the hint of a second edition for years already) but Paizo really needed to hit it out of the park since it was a tough sell.

    As-is they produced a game that is okay at best, and split their fanbase in the process. I genuinely fear for their future.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Nobody wanted PF2, and certainly not in the form it was released. It was, truthfully, time for a new edition despite the fact that nobody wanted one (especially Paizo's biggest fanboys, who have been adamantly against even the hint of a second edition for years already) but Paizo really needed to hit it out of the park since it was a tough sell.

    As-is they produced a game that is okay at best, and split their fanbase in the process. I genuinely fear for their future.
    Would be some real poetic irony if they went under by releasing a base-splitting game that became a major target of hate for the proponents of the older system.

    My fear would be them going under eliminating the free material for 1e available legally on the internet, which is one of Pathfinder's strongest suits imo (though potentially one that damaged their ability to shift product? Dunno, not an economist).

    2e did try - doubling down the sheer range of character customization that was one of the focuses/draws for 1e makes sense. It just... can't excite me to really devote the time to learn/explore the system (nor does it offer themes or a setting on the narrative end to interest me, though neither did 1e). The other person at my table who revolving doors with me as GM picked up 2e, yet chose to run our new second string game for the group with 1e; I don't know if that's telling, or if he just wanted to get a game off the ground ASAP.
    Last edited by RifleAvenger; 2019-11-19 at 09:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by RifleAvenger View Post
    Would be some real poetic irony if they went under by releasing a base-splitting game that became a major target of hate for the proponents of the older system.
    The real irony is that Pathfinder 2e borrowed heavily from D&D 4e. The game is heavily tactical, feats give tiny bonuses in specific situations, multiclassing is exactly like 4e and “every level choose a class feat or a skill feat” is also how 4e did things.

    It is a shame because I really like Golarion and the Adventure Paths.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Nobody wanted PF2, and certainly not in the form it was released. It was, truthfully, time for a new edition despite the fact that nobody wanted one (especially Paizo's biggest fanboys, who have been adamantly against even the hint of a second edition for years already) but Paizo really needed to hit it out of the park since it was a tough sell.

    As-is they produced a game that is okay at best, and split their fanbase in the process. I genuinely fear for their future.
    While that's disappointing to hear, we already committed to starting this one. Guess it'll be like the bad old days when people guessed what options were the best vs what was cool.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Nobody wanted PF2, and certainly not in the form it was released. It was, truthfully, time for a new edition despite the fact that nobody wanted one (especially Paizo's biggest fanboys, who have been adamantly against even the hint of a second edition for years already) but Paizo really needed to hit it out of the park since it was a tough sell.

    As-is they produced a game that is okay at best, and split their fanbase in the process. I genuinely fear for their future.
    Really? I've heard a lot of good things about Pathfinder 2. Splitting the fanbase is probably inevitable but from what I've heard the new edition is pretty good in its own right.
    Last edited by Hytheter; 2019-11-20 at 12:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hytheter View Post
    Really? I've heard a lot of good things about Pathfinder 2. Splitting the fanbase is probably inevitable but from what I've heard the new edition is pretty good in its own right.
    It's "pretty good" (though that's debatable) but it pretty much needed to be indisputably excellent to succeed.

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    PF2 suffered from the relative success of Starfinder. People who wanted a change had moved over to it, and those that didn't want to change were sticking with PF1. While I like some of the ideas that PF2 has, I haven't had any desire to run it. And neither has anyone else in my gaming circle, although I don't know if anyone else has even looked at it.
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    PF2E is, alongside Starfinder, Paizo's first attempt at making their own mechanics, instead of coasting on someone else's. The results aren't terribly inspiring. It's unlikely to excite people who don't like PF1E to begin with but has enough to discomfit people who do like it. And it has 5E D&D to contend with, which actually plays to the system's strengths instead of hammering square pegs into round holes the way both PF editions do, and is massively popular in general.

    I still expect it to sell well, though. Paizo has clout second only to WotC's and many people will see a new edition and buy it, simple as that.
    Last edited by Morty; 2019-11-20 at 04:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by lightningcat View Post
    While I like some of the ideas that PF2 has, I haven't had any desire to run it. And neither has anyone else in my gaming circle, although I don't know if anyone else has even looked at it.
    That's the unfortunate truth. Had this game been published around the same time as 5e, I would have jumped into the ship, because I love a lot of its idea (and a lot of the ideas it took from 4e).
    But for now, I've filled the need for complex RPG with homebrews made by our group, and PF2e is too complex to learn just for one-shot sessions.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    While that's disappointing to hear, we already committed to starting this one. Guess it'll be like the bad old days when people guessed what options were the best vs what was cool.
    In its defense, the game is pretty well balanced (4e DNA will do that), so you can choose concept first then build to it.

    Also, to clarify my previous post, I liked 4e, I’m just worried that the people who switched to Pathfinder because they hated 4e aren’t going to want to switch to Pathfinder 2e.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    I'm surprised, I assumed PF2 (which I have paid zero attention to) would have been an attempt to jump on 5E's bandwagon, rather than 4E's. Whcih would make sense from a "trying to catch the biggest market (at the potential expense of a large chunk of your current customer base)" viewpoint.

    But if they went more for 4E, the decision to move away from the explict thing everyone came to Paizo for after 3.5's demise explcitly because of 4E is a bit baffling, to say the least.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    The amount of 4E in PF2E is pretty overstated. It's not insignificant, but a lot of it is frankly superficial - mostly the formatting of feats and spells. Other major features of 4E were scaled way back (martial powers) or cut out with prejudice (per-encounter resources).
    Last edited by Morty; 2019-11-20 at 08:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The amount of 4E in PF2E is pretty overstated. It's not insignificant, but a lot of it is frankly superficial - mostly the formatting of feats and spells. Other major features of 4E were scaled way back (martial powers) or cut out with prejudice (per-encounter resources).
    I mean, the existance of per-encounter resources were not even remotely one of 4E's problems, so that seems an odd one to take the determined hatchet to.

    (Wouldn't fill me with any confidence, but then PF2 has held as much interest for me as 5E has, which is so far to solely have stolen the terms Advantage/Disadvantage, since it's a lot easier to write that for 3.5/PF1 than "roll two D20 and take the best/worst one.")

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    We ran our first session, and ran into a couple technical problems due to roll 20 online not being properly supported. Nobody knew how to enter spells and we got to a late start.
    We have a rogue, a wizard, an alchemist and my cleric. We noticed some things such as
    number inflation going on since armor and attack are adjusted by your level. Not sure what it'll mean later on.
    Making everything an action is more intrusive then I expected but it does give me some options. Eg move, attack, raise shield, anything small. They all consume equal resources. That means even though I have a cool extending weapon, I'll never activate it since it will cost 2 actions. 1 to turn it off and another to draw my shield, and probably a third to raise my shield.
    Crit decks pissed me off last night. I nat critical something and I drew infection. So instead of doubling my damage, I dealt regular damage and infected the bandit...1d4 days later.

    The combined race/background into point buy was interesting but no odd numbers was strange. Having to eat-4 to get a+2 stat was really annoying but manageable.
    I did appreciate knowledge skills being not int based and that initiative could be based off multiple skills or attributes.
    Not a fan of 4e style multi classing. Wasn't impressed with summoning so far. We started at level 4.
    Not a fan of the wealth by level system for new higher level characters but mostly because options were lacking.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    I played my first session of “Fall of Plaguestone” last week. I’m not gonna lie: D&D 5e is a rule system that better matches the way I play RPGs. I find the surfeit of small bonuses to be fiddly and I find that tons of detailed rules limit character options rather than encourage them.

    However, my impression is that to Pathfinder players, the above is a feature, not a bug.

    The principal thing that annoyed me about the system were the skill rules. The game really leans into the idea that if you are untrained in a skill you are garbage at it, and tends towards skill checks that increase with level. Given that some builds tend to have very few skills (like 4), this encourages a game style that I don’t like, where certain characters essentially disappear in the non-combat encounters, and you get gamist situations where the DC of the same situation depends on your level, and the barbarian has to bring a friend along everywhere in order to speak to anyone in the city.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Having read the core rule book for 2e the only thing I can praise it on is the religious consistency with which the range of the system’s outputs are confined to The One True Path.
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    For all the hate 4e got there was at least diversity in your options on the dungeon grid. As a combat game pf2e has crippled the potential for magic to contribute to combat beyond a chance at trading your action for an enemy’s or just blasting with your exceptionally limited spell slots. Combat is decided by throwing bricks of numbers at the monsters which are themselves bricks of numbers. Any of the few options you’ve picked up are minor contributions to determining outcomes outside of a handful of obvious auto picks. The range of bonuses available is slim, add to this the treadmill of “x enemy ac and hp etc scaling for y level” and it makes combat float or sink on the whims of rng, but almost always slog.

    Outside of combat casters still have wonderful plot/adventure bypassing spells. They tend to come online later than pf1/3.5 versions but they are still something of an exclusive domain for casters.

    Comparing pf2 to 5e the latter is smooth and simplified small candies each with a single taste that floods the mouth. The former gives you a field of lint balls with some crumbs included to pick N from, then says you can only stack a lettuce crumb, a meat crumb and a bread crumb to make a sandwich that is then rated by a giant to whom it tastes differently depending on which part of his tongue it lands on.

    I’m not the first to say it but mark down my agreement. The one thing pf2 is best suited to is performing as a system where players’ inputs can’t break modules simply because the game only allows a very narrow range of options.


    Vs pf1/3.5 it doesn’t have the crunch or the swathes of meaningful, impactful choices

    Vs 5e it has more choices but they’re of such minimal impact that players may rightly feel 5e better rewards their choices with the archetypes and features providing noticeable differences.

    Call me out if I’m wrong, but the product was neither desired nor asked for. It’s smoothed over and bland in the middle of a market with two strong competitors flanking it.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    I think people are being a little harsh on PF2. Is it perfect? No. Does it fill a nice niche in between 5e and 3.5/pf1? Yes. From my experience, it looks like PF2 took their favorite aspects of many different rules systems (Starfinder, PF1, 5e, 4e, and a clear few other influences) and made a very fun blend.

    All 3 of my groups (I GM 2, play in 1) have switched over to it (2 from 5e, one from 3.5), and they are all enjoying themselves. The 5e groups were looking for a more complex system with more impactful choices than "I pick my class and subclass. I'll only need to adjust my character sheet 4 times unless I multiclass" and the 3.5 group was looking for a more balanced game that didn't involve rocket tag.

    The 3 action system has combat running very smoothly; it definitely runs much more efficiently than 3.5, pf1, and 5e. It features a lot of character customization (not as much as some systems like Mutants and Masterminds, but a lot more than 5e) without going too overboard with options (though this is likely to change as they keep churning out new guides, adventure paths, and splat books). Caster and martial disparity has been addressed (much to the disappointment of the wizard in the 3.5 game).

    As far as resources go, I'd recommend the paizo forums. You're not going to find a lot overall, as it's a newer game. And as people have pointed out, it's also a niche system between 3.5 and 5e (though I think the comparisons to 4e are a little disingenuous. It has definitely borrowed some elements from 4e but the systems themselves have very little in common) whose target demographic has likely already found other systems to meet their needs.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    There's a SubReddit for Pathfinder Second Edition: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/
    ...which has a resources topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2...sources_guide/

    And there's a Zenith Games Guide to Guides up: https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/201...to-guides.html
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emay Ecks View Post
    I think people are being a little harsh on PF2. Is it perfect? No.
    Maybe.

    Previous forum discussions suggest that while P2 has a lot of choices, very few of those are actually meaningful (almost all feats give a marginal bonus to something you could already do, or are extremely situational); that while the 3-action system is nice in theory, there are lots of actions that arbitrarily take two or three or zero actions, making it messy in practice; and that P2's "solution" to rocket tag is to make debuff and crowd control spells essentially non-functional.

    the 3.5 group was looking for a more balanced game that didn't involve rocket tag.
    PF1 is a more balanced game than 3.5, and doesn't involve rocket tag until very high level It's telling that Paizo's P1 forums are actually more active than their P2 forums.
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    There's a SubReddit for Pathfinder Second Edition: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/
    ...which has a resources topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2...sources_guide/

    And there's a Zenith Games Guide to Guides up: https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/201...to-guides.html
    The first two links weren't the greatest at first glance but I did appreciate the cleric domain breakdown. I'll dig deeper later.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The amount of 4E in PF2E is pretty overstated. It's not insignificant, but a lot of it is frankly superficial - mostly the formatting of feats and spells. Other major features of 4E were scaled way back (martial powers) or cut out with prejudice (per-encounter resources).
    Besides if you like aspects of 4e 5e has a lot of 4e in it just fairly well hidden or used subtly. One thing that I think will hurt PF2 is that it did not learn one of the key lessons from 4e which is that there are a number of people that will like concepts used in a game like 4e but do not like it being so blatant in being a game. 4e is pretty up front with gameyness and uses the idea that the players and DM are to take the gaming concepts and dress it up how they like and for some that works fine or even great (I for one never had an issue with this) however others look at that as lazy at best or they just outright hate it at worst.

    As for the 3 actions I am not really a fan. I will agree it is better than 3e style action economy but i consider that action economy to be absolutely awful and an insult to anyone that uses a weapon (full attack action is the worst thing to ever be foisted on the fighter class ever). I consider 5e's action economy to be much MUCH better especially as basic movement does not hurt your ability to do your actions and the ability to split your attacks with weapons during your movement is fun, dynamic, and potentially potent. I would want to make some changes such as changing how TWF works but on the whole I like that a lot more.
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Is there a breakdown of the 2Handed vs sword and shield style? It kinda irritates me that there doesn't seem to be much difference between 2H vs 1 handed but the shield REQUIRES 1 action every round or it's useless. And then the shield gets a limit of hp/broken threshold. Does that imply shield dR +ac for the cost of 1 action is too strong? Or is it just punishing specialization?

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    High level PF 1 not becoming rocket tag is essentially the job of the players, and usually very much lessened if a character had to be played from at least a medium level up. Sure you can build a blaster/debuffer focussed on a variety of schticks that have MENTAL saving throws and attack rolls. But our characters that started as as early as 6th, 3rd or even first level did not NEARLY have as much stuff focussed on high level performance (if you struggle to stay alive at 1st level you pick Toughness, not Spell Focus for your spells that come online on 5th or 9th level). That being done, "rocket tag" is usually the reward for the players sticking with a campaign for so long. They managed to not loose their soul or bodies in 15 levels? Let them have SOMETHING.

    As someone who quit Pathfinder offline about 1,5 years before PF 2 was even released, we quit because of the following reasons:
    1) The DM(s) were overwhelmed by the sheer amount of (defensive) options by players. If you want to do a debuffing villain, you better not have a paladin in your group. If you crank up the DCs, the other players have NO chance at succeeding the saves, if you don't the paladin is essentially immune. (same goes for clerics and will saves, or rogues and dex saves, everything pretty much baseline and out of the phb).

    2) Sometimes the prep time (with custom monsters and villains) is just too much. I needed way too much on needless background stuff for my campaign, and its flavor suffered because of this. For a 5 hour prep time involving everything, I spent 4 hours on NPC sheets, 30 minutes on story, 20 minutes on plot hooks and 10 minutes on music (and then 2 hours on decent ****ing art for the npcs and locales because im the way i am). And lets say, it showed. My story was lacking, the plot hooks were contrieved, but at least I knew if the villainous leader had acrobatics +7 and not +9? yay me?

    Whichever improvements PF 2 did for THAT was not properly communicated. I use the pfsrd, and they even did an advertisement for pf 2 but the ship has sailed imho. 5e has the market cornered for D&Desque rules light gaming, PF is rules heavy without the MAJOR shenanigans of 3e, Starfinder is a derivation from classic RPG/fantasy tropes. so I feel there is just no market for PF 2.

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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    High level PF 1 not becoming rocket tag is essentially the job of the players, and usually very much lessened if a character had to be played from at least a medium level up. Sure you can build a blaster/debuffer focussed on a variety of schticks that have MENTAL saving throws and attack rolls. But our characters that started as as early as 6th, 3rd or even first level did not NEARLY have as much stuff focussed on high level performance (if you struggle to stay alive at 1st level you pick Toughness, not Spell Focus for your spells that come online on 5th or 9th level). That being done, "rocket tag" is usually the reward for the players sticking with a campaign for so long. They managed to not loose their soul or bodies in 15 levels? Let them have SOMETHING.

    As someone who quit Pathfinder offline about 1,5 years before PF 2 was even released, we quit because of the following reasons:
    1) The DM(s) were overwhelmed by the sheer amount of (defensive) options by players. If you want to do a debuffing villain, you better not have a paladin in your group. If you crank up the DCs, the other players have NO chance at succeeding the saves, if you don't the paladin is essentially immune. (same goes for clerics and will saves, or rogues and dex saves, everything pretty much baseline and out of the phb).

    2) Sometimes the prep time (with custom monsters and villains) is just too much. I needed way too much on needless background stuff for my campaign, and its flavor suffered because of this. For a 5 hour prep time involving everything, I spent 4 hours on NPC sheets, 30 minutes on story, 20 minutes on plot hooks and 10 minutes on music (and then 2 hours on decent ****ing art for the npcs and locales because im the way i am). And lets say, it showed. My story was lacking, the plot hooks were contrieved, but at least I knew if the villainous leader had acrobatics +7 and not +9? yay me?

    Whichever improvements PF 2 did for THAT was not properly communicated. I use the pfsrd, and they even did an advertisement for pf 2 but the ship has sailed imho. 5e has the market cornered for D&Desque rules light gaming, PF is rules heavy without the MAJOR shenanigans of 3e, Starfinder is a derivation from classic RPG/fantasy tropes. so I feel there is just no market for PF 2.
    I agree very much with part of what you said in that 3e type games take a LOT of work to run and after doing level 1-20 games and then trying other versions of D&D at those same levels I will never go back to Dming 3e. I will play 3e (though it is not my favorite since I like using weapons and 3e's action economy fights against you in that regard) but I will not DM 3e anymore just too much work and hassle for the fun I get out of it.

    PF has the same problems. I am not sure about PF2e but generally I am not very impressed with Paizo's work and since nobody I know is playing PF2 currently and I do not own it so my experience with it is more limited so I am not sure yet if it DMs better than 3e and PF.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2019-11-26 at 11:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Resources on Pathfinder 2E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    High level PF 1 not becoming rocket tag is essentially the job of the players, and usually very much lessened if a character had to be played from at least a medium level up. Sure you can build a blaster/debuffer focussed on a variety of schticks that have MENTAL saving throws and attack rolls. But our characters that started as as early as 6th, 3rd or even first level did not NEARLY have as much stuff focussed on high level performance (if you struggle to stay alive at 1st level you pick Toughness, not Spell Focus for your spells that come online on 5th or 9th level). That being done, "rocket tag" is usually the reward for the players sticking with a campaign for so long. They managed to not loose their soul or bodies in 15 levels? Let them have SOMETHING.

    As someone who quit Pathfinder offline about 1,5 years before PF 2 was even released, we quit because of the following reasons:
    1) The DM(s) were overwhelmed by the sheer amount of (defensive) options by players. If you want to do a debuffing villain, you better not have a paladin in your group. If you crank up the DCs, the other players have NO chance at succeeding the saves, if you don't the paladin is essentially immune. (same goes for clerics and will saves, or rogues and dex saves, everything pretty much baseline and out of the phb).

    2) Sometimes the prep time (with custom monsters and villains) is just too much. I needed way too much on needless background stuff for my campaign, and its flavor suffered because of this. For a 5 hour prep time involving everything, I spent 4 hours on NPC sheets, 30 minutes on story, 20 minutes on plot hooks and 10 minutes on music (and then 2 hours on decent ****ing art for the npcs and locales because im the way i am). And lets say, it showed. My story was lacking, the plot hooks were contrieved, but at least I knew if the villainous leader had acrobatics +7 and not +9? yay me?

    Whichever improvements PF 2 did for THAT was not properly communicated. I use the pfsrd, and they even did an advertisement for pf 2 but the ship has sailed imho. 5e has the market cornered for D&Desque rules light gaming, PF is rules heavy without the MAJOR shenanigans of 3e, Starfinder is a derivation from classic RPG/fantasy tropes. so I feel there is just no market for PF 2.
    1) The paladin shouldn't be able to win the fight alone if this encounter is meant to be any sort of threat. What's wrong with letting him be immune and taking the actually vulnerable people out of the fight? I had a high level game with a player who had a sky high AC and massive saves (25-30+ on all three), as well as another playing a dedicated healbot who was actually decent at in-combat healing (sub-optimal yes, but made threatening the rest a good deal harder). I had the BBEG quagmire invinci-man with minions and non-save BFC, focus the healer down, and then turn attention to taking out the rest of the party. Heck, eventually invinci-man rolled low enough to fail a save while trying to move through a Disruptive/Dazing Sirocco because he thought he really was invincible.

    Also, anything the players can do, you can do too. You can do BETTER since the GM is allowed to just make stuff up behind the scenes.

    2) I mean, you can just abstract the stats for NPCs who won't matter so much. Yes, it took me several hours to stat out the BBEG high-priest, but he was the most important non-player character in the campaign, so knowing exactly what he could do was important. He got a full character sheet with WBL gear. Some nobody the players will meet once, and never again? Just set the stats to a reasonably % of success against the party (in line with your concept for NPC's skills, weaknesses, and personality), give them the abilities you think will actually matter in a combat/social/other encounter, and be done with it in 5-10 minutes or less. The players are never going to see your notes, so why bother stating out everything?

    That's the way I handle monster and NPC creation in all crunchy games, from D&D 3.X to anything White Wolf/Onyx Path. Pathfinder is a hard game on GM's, but that's really more from a narrative fragility angle given powers that ruin soft plots. If the players choose to actually step into a straight up fight, that's the easy part past mid levels.
    Last edited by RifleAvenger; 2019-12-03 at 06:50 PM.

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