Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?

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The best and most obvious way to start is either a) Dark Imperium, or b) Know No Fear. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Death Guard army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Death Guard, you will almost definitely want to look into Start Collecting! boxes - with a few exceptions.

*Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Codecies, an 'Astartes' army - in this context - could mean Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves, and, at the very outside, you could even start a Deathwatch army with Dark Imperium or KNF. The models found in Dark Imperium/KNF, work best with Dark Angels or Space Marines. But, until you have a Codex (or even just Datacards), you don't have to make that decision.

However, just having the models, isn't really enough to play the game - you will need a rulebook. Dark Imperium comes with a rulebook, whilst Know No Fear, doesn't. That being said, Games Workshop offers the core rules to play the game on their website. So, if you can't afford a rulebook, and you just want to start playing the game with your friends, as long as you're matching Power Rating, you should be mostly okay...Mostly.

Also, you need dice. ~30 is a good number to have. Any excess dice you have can be used for wound counters, or to keep track of Command Points (if you don't know what those are yet, that's fine). But, just as a frame of reference, the Inceptors you get in Dark Imperium/KNF, they roll 18 dice to hit. Additionally, try and have different colours of dice. It will speed up your games.

Also, you'll need Terrain. If you don't have terrain on the board, the game vastly swings to playing a certain way, and all other units that don't play that way, are terrible... You don't want that. But we'll circle back to this.

Additional Resources that you will want:
- Battlescribe; Battlescribe is a free App for Mobile and PC (however, you can pay for it to remove ads). It's incredibly useful as it contains all the rules for all your units - including points costs. This greatly increases your ability to play the Matched Play version of 40K, as all's you need to do is plug the units you have, into the App, and you get given an army list complete with rules. However, do be aware that in the real world, when playing a real game, most people don't want to read rules from your phone - however, running it from a tablet, or printing it out, is almost always accepted. Battlescribe is for you, not for your opponents.

- [Faction] Datacards; If you don't have a Codex, well, Battlescribe doesn't have rules for Stratagems. Your Faction's Datacards provide all the rules you need to run your chosen Factions' Stratagems, while also including all the cards you need to play Maelstrom Missions. Maelstrom is currently the most commonly played format of the game. But, if your playgroup - otherwise known as your 'metagame', or 'meta' - doesn't play Maelstrom, at least you've got all your Stratagems.

- Open War cards; Open War is exceptionally useful for newer players as it gives you rules for Missions you can play, without having to buy the rulebook. Because of the random nature of the cards - like Maelstrom - you can have a variety of experiences depending on how the cards draw. The rules for Open War also allow for what happens when player has more Points or higher Power Rating than their opponent. Which can sometimes act as a balancing factor. However, those 'extra rules' can be very swingy depending on the units or army you have, so the better idea is to simply try and even out the points costs and ignore those rules.
While Open War cards aren't required to play the game (GW offers the Core Rules for free), they will give you a decent experience of the game until you can get your hands on the rulebook and/or the most current edition of Chapter Approved.

- Spin-down Dice; What? Okay, Magic: The Gathering (and others, but M:TG is the most obvious) produces spin-down d20s. These are d20s where the numbered sides are consecutively next to each other, which makes them incredibly useful as wound counters, Victory Point and Command Point trackers, additionally, they can't be accidentally picked up when you need more d6s to roll. They come in several different coloursm, just in case. GW themselves, sells 'Wound Trackers', but, they are in fact, just regular d10s.

...Points? ...Power Rating? What's the difference?

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Both units of measurement are ways of keeping the game balanced. If one player's army is vastly superior to their opponent's, that's not a very fair game, is it? If you think that you're just going to 'put down everything you have on the table', well, that might work for smaller games. But once you get larger collections, what you have, and what your opponent has, may be very different collections and just...No.

Power Rating; Power Rating is the easiest method to play the game. Your unit is always Rated the same, regardless of what wargear has. Whether your model has a Chainsword, or Thunder Hammer, still costs the same. This makes it incredibly easy to make army lists because you just put down your unit without regards to wargear. However, if everything costs the same, then the Good Stuff, costs exactly the same as the Bad Stuff, so why isn't everyone taking the Good Stuff all the time? Power Rating is incredibly abusable and all's it takes it a slight desire to start winning games and then the whole thing is ruined. Power Rating is also problematic because the way Games Workshop - allegedly - arrives at a unit's Power Rating makes no sense. Additionally, with the ebb and flow of the meta, with certain units becoming more conducive to winning games than others, no unit in the game's Power Rating has ever been changed.

Points; Points are exclusively found in your Factions' Codecies (and Battlescribe). The way this works, is that everything has a points cost - even wargear. This means that Bad Stuff costs less points, whilst Good Stuff, costs more points. So, if you - or your opponents - want to start winning games, they're even further limited in what they can take. This is vastly more fair than using Power Rating to decide how to build your army. Additionally, Games Workshop releases points cost changes a few times a year, so, depending on your Codex's age, the points in the back may well be totally redundant, and you're going to want to pick up the most recent edition of Chapter Approved, which GW releases annually. Which is the downside. In order to keep it fair, points need to keep being re-balanced.

So, what's a good start then?

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Dark Imperium; The Astartes side is 773 Points, with a Power Rating of 41. The Death Guard are 636 Points with a PR of 34.
Know No Fear; Astartes; 481 Points, PR 24. Death Guard; 456 Points, PR 25
(Using the most recent Codex for both Factions, and Chapter Approved 2018)

Know No Fear is a lot more fair. That being said, even in Dark Imperium, they are designed to be a start to an army, they are not an army, in and of themselves.

If you don't want Astartes or Death Guard, you're going to want to look at Start Collecting! with the following exceptions:
- Space Marines, Blood Angels and Primaris Space Wolves; The reason for this is easy. Know No Fear is cheaper, and better (and you can sell off the Death Guard half). The regular Space Wolves SC! box, is...Okay. If it doesn't have Primaris Marines and does have Thunderwolves, get that Space Wolf one.
- Craftworlds; A pile of Elite and Heavy units is not how you start a Craftworlds army. That being said, if your idea of Craftworlds, involves a bunch of <Wraith Construct> units (e.g; Craftworld Iyanden), then you should absolutely buy it. If it's want you want, get it.
- Orks; It's...Not great. While yes, it's a more legitimate start to an Ork army than Wraith-units to a Craftworlds army. It's just not a particularly good start.

Because the Start Collecting! boxes are not fixed models, their points costs and Power Rating is indeterminate at best, because some units are dual kits, and some units have a vast array of wargear available to them. Ask the Thread for optimal builds for particular kits or boxes.

Terrain - you mentioned it before. Talk about it, now.

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Terrain...Is good. It slows down Melee armies from destroying you on Turn 1 or 2, and it increases your defense against Shooting attacks so you don't automatically lose on Turn 1 against a gunline. Wargaming terrain is an extremely fun hobby project where you can find hundreds of tutorials online to scratch-build almost anything you want. If you want to be even more creative than that, you can even theme your terrain to your army!

A good rule of thumb is that anywhere between 33% and 50% of your table space should be covered in terrain.
- 4x4' (low point games): You'll want 6-8 pieces of terrain with a combined total of a 1.3 - 2 foot square.
- 6x4': You'll want 8-12 pieces of terrain, combining between 2'x4' and 2x6'.

Not only that, but you'll also want (trust us) terrain that fully blocks Line of Sight. That is, terrain that is a solid mass that you can't see through. Examples might include Buildings or Statues. Small boards want at least one, and large boards want at least two. It's also a good idea to create terrain that partially blocks Line of Sight. That is, some of the terrain, you can't see through, but other parts, you can. A good example of this might be a shelled-out Ruin. Where the foundations of the Building are intact, and thus, built like a wall. While the upper levels of the Building have been hit by explosive attacks like an air raid, and thus the walls are not so intact and you can see through them.

If your community has a gaming hub (such as a gaming store, or club), if those places are any good, they should have enough terrain for all of their gaming tables, and you don't really need to worry about this. If your local hub doesn't have enough terrain for its tables - or its terrain is just...Bad, and for example, doesn't block LoS - see if you can get involved in your community and organise a terrain building hobby day, or a challenge month or something, where terrain made is donated to the hub. More, better and diverse terrain in your hub benefits everybody, and your community manager should be on board for such an idea.

Obviously, you can simply just buy Games Workshop terrain. But then you kind of only get to use what they can sell you. If that's what you want, well, it's less work than making your own terrain, that's for sure.

While we're here, a 4x4' board is typically used for games below 1000 Points (or <50 PR), and a 6x4' board is anything bigger. The rulebook - if you have one - will tell you this.

I've heard about Conquest. What's that about?

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Well, first off, it's only available in select countries. If you happen to live in one of those countries...

Conquest Magazine is a subscription service with a total of 80 issues (4 per month). Over the course of almost two years, you will build up solid collections for Space Marines, Death Guard, and you will get a whole load of terrain. Additionally, the Magazine itself, comes with Missions, paints and paint brushes and will literally help you build up your hobby at a reasonable pace without overwhelming you.

Conquest is great for people with limited time and limited funds, but who still want to get into the hobby. The main issues with Conquest is that the models you get are fixed - so here's hoping you like Astartes and/or Death Guard - and that it takes almost two years to finish. So if you're looking to dive right into the hobby, and start playing lots of games within six months with a strong, personalised army...Then Conquest probably isn't for you.

On a personal note, if Conquest had been a Thing when I was a University student, I absolutely would have bought into it.

This is so expensive!

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So is buying a gaming console, and a game every month. So is buying a bunch of power tools, buying wood and learning home carpentry. Warhammer is a hobby, same as anything else. If you want to spend a little bit of money, you can. There are game modes where GW attempts to tell you that you don't need to spend a lot of money (but in actual fact you do, if you want to be good at it). If you want to spend a lot of money on the hobby, you can do that, too.

It's not called 'plastic crack' for nothing, and it doesn't make significant others mad for no reason.

Most independent gaming stores will sell GW products at -20%, and of course there's 'Battlescribe & Datacards = A Codex'. But, additionally, you can search internet to see if people are selling their models at a decent price. There are very affordable - and mostly safe - ways to strip paint from models if you see a bad paint job on models you want. That being said, the reason people most often sell their models is 'cause they aren't any good on the table. While that isn't the case all the time, it is the case...A lot. If you see a good deal, just make sure that they're models you actually want.

Wait...So you weren't kidding, there actually is 'Bad Stuff' in the game?

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Unfortunately...Yes. The good news is, what's bad or good, depends on your meta. It's always useful to check out what other players are playing, and build to your meta.

Build to my meta?

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What works for someone on the other side of the world, or Hell, just 200kms north of you, might not work for you, because their local meta, is different to yours. The only person who truly knows what you need to buy for your army, is you, and you only learn that, by talking and engaging with your other local players. Of course, you can build to the meta, and run some or all of the best units in the game. But, if your meta is even slightly reasonable, there's a good chance that you don't need - or probably even want - to run the best units in the game because your opponents don't play their armies that way.
...But, of course, they might, too.

So what am I here for?

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Other perspectives and opinions. A lot of people play the game a certain way that they enjoy - it's a hobby, after all. That means that even if you talk to people in your meta, the advice you get given will only be relevant to their skill ceiling and knowledge base. If no-one in your meta plays Necrons, it's probably fair to say that not many people in your meta have experience playing with or against Necrons, and thus, their advice will be limited. There's a chance that you could ask everyone in your meta for advice, and get no helpful directions.

It's also pretty fair that if you ask your opponents how to beat them, they're not going to tell you - why would they? It's also pretty fair that if you're asking your local store manager how to build an army, that your manager will make recommendations that end up with you spending the most money possible. It's a ****ty thing to do, but it is realistic.

Mostly, the internet is for looking for competitive advice. If you are looking to win games, the internet will tell you how. Mostly, the internet will talk about the meta. That is, objectively, there are units in the game that are more suited to playing to the win conditions of the game, than other units. Internet discussion usually revolves around either taking those units, or taking units that counter those units, sometimes with a third 'meta-buster' build that is reasonably good against the unit and counter-unit.

Now, if your meta, doesn't have people running those units, then talking about the meta, only goes so far. However, even taking 'sub-optimal' units, can still win games. A unit that's rated 8/10 is still pretty good, even if it's not 'the best' and will still cause problems given the chance.

If you're having fun, playing what you want to play...Then talk about that.

So can I take sub-optimal units that I like the look of, and still win games?

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That's the elephant in the room...And the answer, at best, is only 'Maybe.'

If having fun and doing hobby is what you care about, no-one can tell you how to have fun. No-one can tell you not to have fun - especially if you don't know them 'cause they're some dude on the internet and who cares what they think anyway? If you're having fun doing whatever it is you're doing, then you keep doing it. If, by some miracle, you're winning games while also taking like, units rated 5/10, 4/10 or worse, then who cares? You're playing with models you want, and you're winning games. Keep doing exactly what you're doing.

If the units or models you like are Not Good, and potentially contributing to you losing every game - and that matters to you. Well, that sucks. The units you like, are bad, they don't perform, and you have to buy new models. What you have doesn't work, you should probably replace it. Or, at the very least start cutting up the models you do have and start giving them new wargear. Everyone understands that this feeling sucks, and it sucks even harder that you've potentially wasted a lot of money. That's why making sure you know what you want to buy, before you buy it, is so important. That being said, GW can just nerf what you like into the ground and then what do you do?

At the end of the day, the important point you should know is that 'I want to have fun,' and 'I want to have fun...And win games,' are quite often different conversations.

So, are some Factions are better overall than others?

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As previously mentioned, some units are more or less suited to winning games than other units. The more of these units a Faction has, the better or worse they are at winning games. So, unfortunately, the answer is 'Yes.' While it's certainly possible to win games with any Faction in the game, your ability to win games is dependent on what your opponents are running (i.e; Go back to your meta, see what people are running and how they play). If your meta is full of people who are playing cutting edge, top of the meta lists, there's a pretty good chance that you wont be able to just put down any unit you like and still have a good game...And that sucks.

But, for better or worse, Games Workshop has both officially and unofficially-by-game design stated that allied Factions are an intended part of the game, and that they're not going anywhere:
1. This means that they don't have to write 'complete' Factions that can do everything, all the time, because you - a player/consumer - can plug the holes in your preferred Faction's tactics by adding another Faction that is good at it. This makes game design very forgiving on GW's end, especially for Imperium and Chaos factions.
2. As a business, they sell you a more diverse range of models, so that certain kits don't just stay on the shelf forever and lose money by existing.

If you don't want to include a second or even third Faction in your army (not least in part 'cause it requires spending more money), that's a choice you are fully allowed to make. But, if there's a choice in another Faction that does do what you need a unit to be able to do, and you are choosing not to take it, well...What can be said?

I can't paint.

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Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

WarhammerTV (YouTube) has several beginner guides on how to paint almost any model that GW sells. Also, as mentioned, Conquest Magazine is excellent if you want to learn how to paint Ultramarines and/or Death Guard and/or a bunch of GW's terrain features. Other than that, other YouTube channels also do painting tutorials, there are a whole bunch of blogs that also occasionally talk about how they painted their models. If you want to learn how to paint something specific, there's almost definitely a guide for it, somewhere.

If you want to get better at painting, full stop:
a) Make sure you have different sized paint brushes for different tasks - not every brush is useful, all the time.
b) Develop your fine motor skills. It takes practice. You wont be good at it for a while. Don't worry about bad paint jobs. When you get better, just strip them.

GW also has a Contrast Paint range, which is very helpful for getting people who don't want to paint, to paint. If painting for you is too hard, or too time-consuming, then make sure to look those up. Though, there are a number of stories where at the higher end of the painting scale, when you start getting good, Contrast Paints don't actually save you time, and are harder to use than normal paints (e.g; Once you learn drybrushing, it is both quicker and easier than Contrast).

Here are a number of Guides put together by the GitP 40K Community...

Helpful Army Building Guides

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Adeptus Custodes Out of date
Adeptus Mechanicus Out of date
Astra Militarum by LeSwordfish
Chaos Space Marines by LeSwordfish
Craftworlds by Forum Explorer
Dark Angels Out of date
Death Guard by LeSwordfish
Deathwatch Out of date
Drukhari by Gauntlet
Grey Knights
Necrons by Requizen
Space Marines Part I - Part II Very Out of Date and Bad.
Thousand Sons by Wraith

Index: Inquisition (White Dwarf, Nov '19)
Index: Officio Assassinorum (White Dwarf, Mar '19)
Index: Sisters of Silence (White Dwarf, Oct '19)

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics by Vaz
Solar Auxilia by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List by Vaz
Questoris Knights by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List
Legion Special Rules
The Primarchs

Previous conversations to search through...

Previous Threads

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* Warhammer 40K Tactics
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
* VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!"
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends."
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!"
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff.
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
* XXX: Imperium After Dark
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn
* XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One
* XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
* XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up
* XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering
* XVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It
* XVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Cheesegear]

Previously in the Eternal Darkness...

• NOVA 2019 is happening as the new thread goes up. So, bunch of stuff to talk about.
• Blatant wish-listing Homebrew arguments for how Objectives are scored should be based on PR.
• New Space Marine Codex came out. Very few people commenting on it. Why is that? Did anything even actually change? Or was it all unnecessary changes that didn't actually solve any of the problems that Space Marines in 8th Ed. currently experience?
• Agressors got a new wound! Do they rate vs. Assault Centurions and Centurion Devastators even though Guilliman no longer gives flat re-rolls to wound to S4 models?

...We now return you back to the Darkness.

[LansXero]

New sisters expensive box. If only the beta codex wasnt so ****ty. Now I know there wont be enough leaks before it goes out of stock, so its either buy in blind and get screwed, or miss out and feel like a chump. Not to mention there is a 'limited edition' codex bundled because of course sisters players will just lap it up and overpay on needless filler.

[Cheesegear]

Announcing the new Chapter Master for the Raven Guard...The lead singer of My Chemical Romance!!!

*headdesk* Put your helmet back on, you look stupid. And get a haircut!
That being said, his Grav-Chute has Melta weapons it, so Shrike is rad. I'll be replacing his head with an Infiltrator (maybe Reiver, if I hate myself) head and now I have no complaints.
...Except that Line of Sight will be stupid and I definitely hate the base. But, modelling for advantage is a thing. I'll have to find something to replace it.

Psychic Awakening is a campaign, where each book has 'at least two' Factions in it. At least, though, right? Is it too much to hope for that one book will contain all the rules I want?
Great. Time to get drip-fed rules for four months. My enthusiasm for PA has died immediately on its announcement, and that's before I even know what it is.

[LansXero]

Announcing the new Chapter Master for the Raven Guard...The lead singer of My Chemical Romance!!!

*headdesk* Put your helmet back on, you look stupid. And get a haircut!
That being said, his Grav-Chute has Melta weapons it, so Shrike is rad. I'll be replacing his head with an Infiltrator (maybe Reiver, if I hate myself) head and now I have no complaints.
...Except that Line of Sight will be stupid and I definitely hate the base. But, modelling for advantage is a thing. I'll have to find something to replace it.

Psychic Awakening is a campaign, where each book has 'at least two' Factions in it. At least, though, right? Is it too much to hope for that one book will contain all the rules I want?
Great. Time to get drip-fed rules for four months. My enthusiasm for PA has died immediately on its announcement, and that's before I even know what it is.

A campaign where not everybody has new rules at the same time. Sounds so much like Old GW its not even funny.

[Turalisj]

All I can see is Spiderman walking down the street giving finger guns.

[druid91]

Usually their commercials lately have been pretty good.

Psychic awakenings commercial was terrible. I'm going to reserve judgement for now because that was practically a non-answer.

[9mm]

I'd like to complement the work it took to tape a cannonist box under every chair in the hall. Also they previewed music from the Angels of death cartoon.

Biggest laugh was when they put up the slide that PA was not endless spells.

However I am sad that with warhammer legends Index only units are finally being removed from play.

[LansXero]

I'd like to complement the work it took to tape a cannonist box under every chair in the hall. Also they previewed music from the Angels of death cartoon.

Biggest laugh was when they put up the slide that PA was not endless spells.

However I am sad that with warhammer legends Index only units are finally being removed from play.

You and me both. An Autarch with banshee mask / reaper launcher was a staple in most if not all my lists. It will change how I play dramatically, as having something to soak up overwatch was very nice.

[Turalisj]

Spikeybits managed to sum up my feelings on PA nicely.

That sounds like a multi-book format that will only update 2 or more of the 21 factions above in each one. Correct us if we’re wrong but that sounds like a pay to play micro transaction scheme that has the potential to be pretty offputting to hobbyists.

[LansXero]

Its also entirely optional, since it most likely will add rules and models, not replace them. I hope TOs get reasonable and not allow any of it until its all out.

[Forum Explorer]

However I am sad that with warhammer legends Index only units are finally being removed from play.

That is very annoying because some datasheets are just flat out empty compared to their Index versions. Also there's a ton of options for units that just didn't make it into the codex for some reason.

But seriously, Autarch's that can't take equipment is just stupid. It makes walking Autarch literal garbage.

[Avaris]

New sisters expensive box. If only the beta codex wasnt so ****ty. Now I know there wont be enough leaks before it goes out of stock, so its either buy in blind and get screwed, or miss out and feel like a chump. Not to mention there is a 'limited edition' codex bundled because of course sisters players will just lap it up and overpay on needless filler.

I’m now quite concerned that this will be the Sisters getting a new codex and models but no ‘new’ units to bring them up to date in other ways. They’re focusing heavily on ‘plastic sisters’ as the selling point, but we also want a viable army.

At the very least, I want to see what the new AoF system will be (they’ve said it is being completely reworked from the beta). I’m almost certainly going to buy this army box, but that’s because Sisters are my primary army and I’ve been planning to get the special edition codex for a while. But that doesn’t make this ‘army box’ a good product!

Psychic Awakening is a campaign, where each book has 'at least two' Factions in it. At least, though, right? Is it too much to hope for that one book will contain all the rules I want?
Great. Time to get drip-fed rules for four months. My enthusiasm for PA has died immediately on its announcement, and that's before I even know what it is.

However I am sad that with warhammer legends Index only units are finally being removed from play.

Spikeybits managed to sum up my feelings on PA nicely.

That sounds like a multi-book format that will only update 2 or more of the 21 factions above in each one. Correct us if we’re wrong but that sounds like a pay to play micro transaction scheme that has the potential to be pretty offputting to hobbyists.

It looks like they’re moving to the model I’ve been predicting for a while: the main codexes have been released, and rather than rebooting through 9th edition they’re sticking with this and releasing new models and rules outside of codexes. Over time older models will be retired to ‘Legends’ and codexes either individually rebooted (like Space Marines) or v2 with new datasheets from the campaign supplements (like CSM). The existence of Legends in particular suggests to me that we won’t see a significant reboot of the rules for a long time now: 8.5 edition perhaps, but not 9th.

Despite the concerns over microtransaction models, I personally feel this model is superior to what we’ve seen previously, where individual armies go a long time without updates or new models. Everyone has a codex, and provided they do v2 updates regularly new players will be able to have their full rules with reasonable reliability, whereas old players can keep up to date via the campaign books. NB: I’m not saying this is the best model we could have, or even a particularly good one, just that it’s better than the cycle of new edition-codex-several year gap-new edition-codex we’ve seen before.

The big thing missing though is alternative routes to getting the rules. To be a good approach, it needs to be accompanied by either a decent digital app containing the bare bones rules, or the rules being contained with the models themselves (which we see with AoS?), ideally both.

There are also massive concerns over cost and release schedules. A bad approach would be quick fire release of expensive books, like seen in the Warhammer End Times series. A better approach would have a similar price point to the codex supplements just released, and with each army only appearing once, so you don’t need to buy them all. I suspect that we’ll end up something in the middle, at a similar price point to the Vigilus books, which is not great.

Its also entirely optional, since it most likely will add rules and models, not replace them. I hope TOs get reasonable and not allow any of it until its all out.

I wouldn’t expect this to happen without knowing the full release schedule? Psychic Awakening coming out over the course of a year is a very different prospect to it coming out over a few months; in the latter case delays would be reasonable, but asking people to wait a year is unreasonable. And naturally, because GW hates transparency, we have no idea which it will be.

[Cheesegear]

Despite the concerns over microtransaction models, I personally feel this business model is superior to what we’ve seen previously...

Do you work for GW? 'Cause everything would make sense if you do.

There are also massive concerns over cost and release schedules. A bad approach would be quick fire release of expensive books

Wrong. Drop everything at once, let people review all the books at the same time, and consumers will choose the best one(s) for their price allowance.
But GW hates letting people review things in real time.

[LeSwordfish]

Wrong. Drop everything at once, let people review all the books at the same time, and consumers will choose the best one(s) for their price allowance.
The only reason to drip feed rules is for sustained profits over time where people have to buy everything in order to keep up, instead of only buying one thing - the best one - and ignoring everything else.

Okay, so you want a six-month release drought while they write an update for the entire range at once?

[Cheesegear]

Okay, so you want a six-month release drought while they write an update for the entire range at once?

If I already own the Codex, yes.
There is no reason for GW to drip-feed us Supplemental Codecies for 6 months. Why isn't it a single release like Angels of Death was?

[Avaris]

Do you work for GW? 'Cause everything would make sense if you do.

No, but I am a qualified chartered accountant, so I have some understanding of how businesses work. And again, I’m not saying this is a good model, I’m saying it’s better than the cycle we previously had.

Wrong. Drop everything at once, let people review all the books at the same time, and consumers will choose the best one(s) for their price allowance.
But GW hates letting people review things in real time.

The model I’m saying is bad is £75 books released a couple of months apart, which is what we saw in the End Times. What is better is £20 books released in quick succession (which is what you’re suggesting I think? We don’t disagree.) What I suspect we’ll get is £40 books released a couple of months apart, which isn’t great but better than the End Times approach.

[Wraith]

I thought, for the sake of a new thread, I would list the current announcements from NOVA and see if anyone has anything particular that they hadn't seen yet, but wanted to comment on.

Warhammer Legends
GW are going to print a one-and-done data sheet for all of their retired models - Chaplains on Bikes are the given example, along with "everything else" that used to be in Index or has otherwise been retired.

They almost certainly won't be allowed in tournaments, and their rules will never be updated - if it sucks under Legends, then it's going to suck forever. But I think it's a nice gesture from a company whose previous way of dealing with obsolete minis and missing rules was just to ignore the issue entirely.

Necromunda & Warcry get expansions
Warcry is about 10 minutes old and already there's DLC? Okay, whatever. The expansion contains roaming monsters and 'mercenaries' to add to existing gangs.... Given that there's at least 2 unnamed gangs teased in the rulebook and we don't yet have rules for some of the existing AoS factions, like Seraphon and the various flavours of Dwarf, I can't imagine that any of the player base thought that this was a high priority.

Necromunda has teased "Dark Uprising", featuring a character named "the lord of Skin and Sinew" and a highly obscured miniature that looks vaguely like a beastman/mutant with a big cleaver in one hand. I was pretty well informed on the old Necromunda lore, but I can't think who this guy might be so it sounds like an all new character, possibly attached to a campaign or maybe just a unique Hireling.
Again, kind of weird given that Ratskins, Spyrers, Scavvies, Wyrds and Pit Slaves still aren't out, but they were all expansion models anyway so there's still promise that they will turn up at some point.

Plastic Aspect Warriors
'Bout damn time. Only Howling Banshees have been shown so far, and they look exactly like the old ones so I wouldn't expect any big redesigns in the new generation.

Primaris Shrike
Silly haircut aside, I've already heard some complaints that he's just not impressive enough for a named Chapter Master. There's some bling on his belt, some stubby little lightning claws and he has a fancy-ish gun, but he otherwise looks like a normal Reiver with a jump-pack and some generic bits stuck to him. Not going to lie, I'd have hoped for more effort being spent on the model, rather than his cinematic base.

Psychic Awakening
"Pay-to-win microtransactions" in book form. I don't think there's much else to say about it to be honest; it's either going to be unbalanced as hell, insanely overpriced, or both - a real step backwards for "new" GW.

Adeptus Sororitas army box
I am not filled with confidence by the fact that the box we've been shown so far does NOT have a picture of the full contents, like the other Getting Started/Army boxes. I get that they're trying to create interest with a bit of coy mystique, but I similarly can't help but feel that's not the only reason they don't want me to see what's inside it.
Hopefully heralding a new codex, because otherwise it's going to be a still-born project. As nice as they loo, as long as they've been requested by players, there will be only token interest if they're not usable on the table.

40k Horrors novels
Honestly, I haven't heard much about this series of books beyond that they're slightly more dark-grim than they are grimdark. Apparently they're okay? I get the feeling that Horrors are being used as a proving ground for new writers before they're allowed to work on "real" IP projects, so quality may vary.

"Underwhelming" seems to be the overall feeling for the announcements so far. Absolutely nothing has made me jump up and say "I must have it!" out loud, which I literally did when they announced Necromunda Enforcers.

I think the real downer is the piecemeal approach to what's coming out. One Space Marine character here, one Necromunda character there, a scattering of optional Warcry stuff... where's the centrepiece? Where's the unifying theme that draws everyone in rather than just a couple here and there?

[Cheesegear]

The model I’m saying is bad is £75 books released a couple of months apart, which is what we saw in the End Times. What is better is £20 books released in quick succession (which is what you’re suggesting I think? We don’t disagree.) What I suspect we’ll get is £40 books released a couple of months apart, which isn’t great but better than the End Times approach.

Okay, take the obvious Space Marine Codex Supplements. We already know what they are (with only slight confusion on whether the Imperial Fists one will include Crimson Fists and Black Templars in it, but, I guarantee you that GW already knows).

Why should anyone be building Space Marines after the new Codex, when we know for a fact that their rules aren't complete yet? This is bad for the consumer, because hey, Iron Hands will probably be good. Salamanders might end up with T6 Centurions and T5 Intercessors. We don't know. We know that Guilliman has been hard nerfed into the ground, so Ultramarines are no longer the be-all and end-all, and we also know that Raven Guard have the best Chapter Tactics to begin with, so really we're just waiting on them. To be fair, GW announced them...After the Codex was released.

But we're still keeping Salamanders' players strung along, 'cause who cares about them? Which also leaves everyone strung along, because they don't know if Salamanders are good and they should jump ship or start buying models to gear up for the release.

I think the real downer is the piecemeal approach to what's coming out. One Space Marine character here, one Necromunda character there, a scattering of optional Warcry stuff... where's the centrepiece? Where's the unifying theme that draws everyone in rather than just a couple here and there?

It's supposed to be Sisters.
...That being said, I think the announcement for New!Tomb Kings ate what they were supposed to spend on the 40K hype train.

[Avaris]

Okay, take the obvious Space Marine Codex Supplements. We already know what they are (with only slight confusion on whether the Imperial Fists one will include Crimson Fists and Black Templars in it, but, I guarantee you that GW already knows).

Why should anyone be building Space Marines after the new Codex, when we know for a fact that their rules aren't complete yet? This is bad for the consumer, because hey, Iron Hands will probably be good. Salamanders might end up with T6 Centurions and T5 Intercessors. We don't know. We know that Guilliman has been hard nerfed into the ground, so Ultramarines are no longer the be-all and end-all, and we also know that Raven Guard have the best Chapter Tactics to begin with, so really we're just waiting on them. To be fair, GW announced them...After the Codex was released.

But we're still keeping Salamanders' players strung along, 'cause who cares about them? Which also leaves everyone strung along, because they don't know if Salamanders are good and they should jump ship or start buying models to gear up for the release.

You’re absolutely right. Not telling us which codexes are coming out soon is stupid and unhelpful. For Psychic Awakening to be ‘good’ we need to know when each is coming out, and who it is supporting, and ideally any one army will only appear in a single supplement, so once it’s out that’s your lot. I don’t think that is what we’ll get unfortunately, but still think the Psychic Awakening model is a better model to supporting the full range of armies than what we had previously.

[The Patterner]

Primaris Shrike
Silly haircut aside, I've already heard some complaints that he's just not impressive enough for a named Chapter Master. There's some bling on his belt, some stubby little lightning claws and he has a fancy-ish gun, but he otherwise looks like a normal Reiver with a jump-pack and some generic bits stuck to him. Not going to lie, I'd have hoped for more effort being spent on the model, rather than his cinematic base.

Honestly I like the fact that he does not have a ton of bling, it feels right for Raven guard to be more restrictive. But other than that, I'll replace that head with a beaked helmet the first thing I do.

Adeptus Sororitas army box
I am not filled with confidence by the fact that the box we've been shown so far does NOT have a picture of the full contents, like the other Getting Started/Army boxes. I get that they're trying to create interest with a bit of coy mystique, but I similarly can't help but feel that's not the only reason they don't want me to see what's inside it.
Hopefully heralding a new codex, because otherwise it's going to be a still-born project. As nice as they loo, as long as they've been requested by players, there will be only token interest if they're not usable on the table.

Did anyone else notice this part in the sister text:

Plastic Battle Sisters (and Seraphim!), painted and ready for war. Did you ever believe you’d see it?

I hope they mean painted as in not grey, but red or black plastic. Cuuse I'm not buying prepainted models.

[bluntpencil]

Regarding PR /wounds etc determining who controls objectives.

This has been done before.

In the later editions of WHFB, to determine which unit in a combat received an outnumbering bonus, it was the unit with the highest Unit Strength.

Unit Strength is the way to do it.

Guardsmen, Orks, Hormagaunts = Unit Strength 1 each.
Power Armour = 2 each.
Terminators/Aggressors/Inceptors=3 each.
Guilliman=5 or something.

Bonus Unit Strength if affected by Defenders of Humanity or Sicarius' special ability or whatever.

[Avaris]

I hope they mean painted as in not grey, but red or black plastic. Cuuse I'm not buying prepainted models.

I think this is a reference to the accompanying photo, which is the first time we’ve seen painted models rather than CG ones.

[Wraith]

Honestly I like the fact that he does not have a ton of bling, it feels right for Raven guard to be more restrictive. But other than that, I'll replace that head with a beaked helmet the first thing I do.

I get what you mean and I broadly agree, but at the same time, he does have some accessories so it's not as though they've tried to make him look inconspicuous.

I think my problem is that they look "stuck on". There's the crux hanging from his belt, the feathers dangling from his boltor, the purity seal on his arm... Maybe I'm being nit-picky, but it doesn't look "properly" sculpted to me, more like a normal Reiver but with bits glued to it, like how I kitbash my Sword Brethren by taking parts from Veterans and hiding the joints underneath random crap left over from other old sprues.

I just expected... more. A more unique pose, some unique battle-damage, even just a slightly jazzy paint scheme? Instead it looks like something I could build by combining a Reiver, a Inceptor and a Vanguard Veteran. And mine would probably have a more dynamic pose, or at least a sensible flight-stand stuck up his butt rather than a big, line-of-sight creating wall to pose upon.

[Cheesegear]

I think my problem is that they look "stuck on".

Welcome to what happens when you use CAD to design models.

more like a normal Reiver but with bits glued to it

More like the Phobos Lieutenant. But, yes.

[The Patterner]

I get what you mean and I broadly agree, but at the same time, he does have some accessories so it's not as though they've tried to make him look inconspicuous.

I think my problem is that they look "stuck on". There's the crux hanging from his belt, the feathers dangling from his boltor, the purity seal on his arm... Maybe I'm being nit-picky, but it doesn't look "properly" sculpted to me, more like a normal Reiver but with bits glued to it, like how I kitbash my Sword Brethren by taking parts from Veterans and hiding the joints underneath random crap left over from other old sprues.

I just expected... more. A more unique pose, some unique battle-damage, even just a slightly jazzy paint scheme? Instead it looks like something I could build by combining a Reiver, a Inceptor and a Vanguard Veteran. And mine would probably have a more dynamic pose, or at least a sensible flight-stand stuck up his butt rather than a big, line-of-sight creating wall to pose upon.

On that I agree, I saw the picture before I saw that it was Shrike, and I thought it was just another new lieutentant model.

I'd prefered him with lees bling, but a more active action pose and a striking jump pack.

Or something not just emo riever liutenant.

[Cheesegear]

For what it's worth, it seems like the Infiltrators/Incursors and Phobos Lieutenant are being delayed for the Raven Guard release.
In which case, GW is screwing everyone for no reason. Despite the fact that every Chapter can use them, despite the fact that Infiltrators are in pretty high demand (at least one unit per army), no-one can have them...Even though they're in the Codex.

EDIT: Guy has recently had to drop out of a tournament because he doesn't have Infiltrators and the TO wont allow proxies.

[Avaris]

For what it's worth, it seems like the Infiltrators/Incursors and Phobos Lieutenant are being delayed for the Raven Guard release.
In which case, GW is screwing everyone for no reason. Despite the fact that every Chapter can use them, despite the fact that Infiltrators are in pretty high demand (at least one unit per army), no-one can have them...Even though they're in the Codex.

EDIT: Guy has recently had to drop out of a tournament because he doesn't have Infiltrators and the TO wont allow proxies.

Limited ‘advance’ releases are ridiculous. They’d maybe be ok if we knew exactly when the full thing was coming out, but again, GW doesn’t believe in transparency around that sort of thing.

It’s this sort of thing which makes me think the ‘campaign book’ style of release is preferable. Rules and models come out together, rather than having to wait for a full codex update. GW has a constant stream of models releasing, and including rules for a model in a product that comes out some time before the model is available is judt as bad as releasing a model without its full rules being available due to needing to update the full codex.

[LansXero]

No, but I am a qualified chartered accountant, so I have some understanding of how businesses work. And again, I’m not saying this is a good model, I’m saying it’s better than the cycle we previously had.

Well I am a non-qualified business owner and I can tell you this model is bananas. And 'the cycle we previously had' also includes 'lets put all indexes out at once' for 8th, so no it isnt better than that. This model wont even pad numbers properly, because the necron / tyranid / other minor faction releases will have way weaker numbers than those for Imperial / Chaos factions, even if likely produced in the same volume. So if you want that part of the campaign you're saddled with rules you wont use, and where does it all lead? Oh yeah, VK and russian forums, thats where. You cant have a healthy game living off whales, otherwise Fantasy would still be a thing.

This isnt End Times. This is Storm of Magic, and any old players can tell you well that went over and how many tournaments used rules from it and what it did to the already faltering WHFB. Its a terrible idea, and I hope TOs worldwide see into the BS and keep it the same as legends: cute, but not tournament legal.

The model I’m saying is bad is £75 books released a couple of months apart, which is what we saw in the End Times. What is better is £20 books released in quick succession (which is what you’re suggesting I think? We don’t disagree.) What I suspect we’ll get is £40 books released a couple of months apart, which isn’t great but better than the End Times approach.

There is this quirky card game called Cardfight! Vanguard. Used to be a big thing in japan, I think its mostly dead in the US, dead in LATAM at least. Cards are divided in Clans, and they have like 20 of them, so expansions come in 2 forms: Regular boosters which focus on 3 - 5 clans at once every 3 months, and Special boosters which are all for 1 clan, every so often. So what that does is that people with the most recently supported clan own face and the rest are left sulking, which sucks, and also the more popular clans (played by the anime's protagonists, of course) get releases more often so their rules get even better, while some clans are left languishing unplayed and unfixed. This also means a store has to stock like 10 different boxes to support its playerbase, which is idiotic so the game has had to go through 2 reboots already, because that model is bananas and anyone who is in this industry should've realized that from the get go. At least Bushiroad (the company that makes it) has the excuse of this model working for the japanese market they originate from, because japanese gamers are compulsive little freaks who run like 6 factions each and love their grinds; GW has no such excuse to be so out of touch with current western market trends.

[Blackhawk748]

That is very annoying because some datasheets are just flat out empty compared to their Index versions. Also there's a ton of options for units that just didn't make it into the codex for some reason.

But seriously, Autarch's that can't take equipment is just stupid. It makes walking Autarch literal garbage.

All the Space Marines that should be on a bike, IIRC Orks have a similar thing with their HQs and bikes.

I honestly don't know why they stopped allowing those options or why the Autarchs options are so flipping anemic.

I’m now quite concerned that this will be the Sisters getting a new codex and models but no ‘new’ units to bring them up to date in other ways. They’re focusing heavily on ‘plastic sisters’ as the selling point, but we also want a viable army.

At the very least, I want to see what the new AoF system will be (they’ve said it is being completely reworked from the beta). I’m almost certainly going to buy this army box, but that’s because Sisters are my primary army and I’ve been planning to get the special edition codex for a while. But that doesn’t make this ‘army box’ a good product!

If they think Sisters being plastic is gonna get me to buy more they are in for a rude awakening. All Im gonna do is buy (maybe) a Box of Rets, Dominions and Battle Sisters just to get the rest of my special weapons padded out, as I already have over 4k points of Sisters.

If Immolators weren't trash I would have bought more of those.

As for the box...whats even in there? I can't get a list. 10 Troops (cuz we only have one) 3 Pen Engine, a Cannoness, 5 Seraphim, 5 Repentia? I'm assuming that there has to be something else in there too cuz thats only 24 models, so an iconographer? Either way, its bad. Repentia have been terrible since forever and once we lost access to Land Raiders it got worse. Seraphim were only good for ablative wounds for Celestine and maybe some goofy stuff invovling pistols in melee.

Pen Engines are...ok. I guess? And the Battle Sisters are actually good. Or they were. And they better be. Cuz those are all we got.

Canonness are just there. Keep them cheap cuz they aren't doing much beyond hanging out with Rets.

Adeptus Sororitas army box
I am not filled with confidence by the fact that the box we've been shown so far does NOT have a picture of the full contents, like the other Getting Started/Army boxes. I get that they're trying to create interest with a bit of coy mystique, but I similarly can't help but feel that's not the only reason they don't want me to see what's inside it.
Hopefully heralding a new codex, because otherwise it's going to be a still-born project. As nice as they loo, as long as they've been requested by players, there will be only token interest if they're not usable on the table.

I've had enough "coy" thank you very much GW. Sisters have been burned far to many times for me to trust them on this. If it was Ad Mech? Maybe. Daemons? Sure. Sisters? No. You show me what's in that damn box and you tell me what the rules are gonna be, cuz I've watched those idiots bungle Sisters since 3rd edition and I'm getting rather tired of it.

I hope they mean painted as in not grey, but red or black plastic. Cuuse I'm not buying prepainted models.

The ****ing what now? Well any chance in hell of me buying those is gone. My Sisters are White and Blue and an off shoot of Sacred Rose, they are not Order of our Martyred Lady. THERE ARE MORE ORDERS THAN THAT ONE GW!!