Help me be a scout without slowing down the game

[Pufferwockey]

So I play a stealthy monk in a party with a combat oriented rogue, a heavily armoured cleric and a bard with poor stealth. I've been playing for decades but with many years of that time spent without a group so my expirience as a player is intermediatish. I generally prefer skimisher type characters, but havent often filled that role in a dungeon.

We recently ran a pre made dungeon with the rogue and I scouting and there were a few adverse effects to the game.

1st of all dungeon ran took like two sessions longer than expected even with the dm jut deleting a good chunk of it. Listening at doors, having the rogue check everything for traps, planning fights ahead of time and so on.

2nd of all the way our encounters ended up going the bard and cleric didn't get much time to shine until the "boss" encounter at the end. I tell myself I'll let the bard shine when it's time to do the talking, and the cleric is vital to keep a party with two glass cannons and no meatslab alive, but I'm gonna want to rp too when the time comes and just having the cleric patch us up after the fact is, I imagine, not that gratifying for the cleric's player.

We do need to try to get the drop on our encounters as much as possible with an all striker combat team, we all like our characters too much to just go reckless. Some of this is on the DM, and I expect for his part the dm is gonna stop using traps as just a general encounter, and there probably wont be a lot of classic dungeons in the rest of the campaing, but what can we as scouts, and the party as a whole do to keep scouting quick and smooth, yet gratifying for the scouts, while not robbing the other characters? Anyone run in to this problem before?
I realize this is a pretty generalised question. I'll do my best to provide specifics to anyone who's interested.

[OzDragon]

So I play a stealthy monk in a party with a combat oriented rogue, a heavily armoured cleric and a bard with poor stealth. I've been playing for decades but with many years of that time spent without a group so my expirience as a player is intermediatish. I generally prefer skimisher type characters, but havent often filled that role in a dungeon.

We recently ran a pre made dungeon with the rogue and I scouting and there were a few adverse effects to the game.

1st of all dungeon ran took like two sessions longer than expected even with the dm jut deleting a good chunk of it. Listening at doors, having the rogue check everything for traps, planning fights ahead of time and so on.

2nd of all the way our encounters ended up going the bard and cleric didn't get much time to shine until the "boss" encounter at the end. I tell myself I'll let the bard shine when it's time to do the talking, and the cleric is vital to keep a party with two glass cannons and no meatslab alive, but I'm gonna want to rp too when the time comes and just having the cleric patch us up after the fact is, I imagine, not that gratifying for the cleric's player.

We do need to try to get the drop on our encounters as much as possible with an all striker combat team, we all like our characters too much to just go reckless. Some of this is on the DM, and I expect for his part the dm is gonna stop using traps as just a general encounter, and there probably wont be a lot of classic dungeons in the rest of the campaing, but what can we as scouts, and the party as a whole do to keep scouting quick and smooth, yet gratifying for the scouts, while not robbing the other characters? Anyone run in to this problem before?
I realize this is a pretty generalised question. I'll do my best to provide specifics to anyone who's interested.

This isn't a you issue it's a player thing. Once a trap shows up in a dungeon that players are gonna be in for any length of time they EXPECT more they play like there are more, and they take the time even if there are not any more.

Are you all having fun? If so nothing needs to change, I Never prepare for x to take y time it never works that way. Just go with the flow other characters will get their time.

What you can do is ask the DM to increase what your investigate...well investigates. If you are in a 100 ft hall way ask if you can make 2 checks and cover the whole thing. Same with searching rooms. Doors there is not much you can do about.

[Aussiehams]

This is a real table expectations issue. It's important that everyone, DM included is on the same page regarding what they want out of the game.

A couple of quick suggestions are:
to abstract some of the scouting to minimise rolls needed;
use passive skills more so you don't have to roll at every door;
and remember that rolls are only needed when the DM thinks failure has a meaningful consequence, not every time a PC wants to do something.

[Pufferwockey]

I'm having fun but i get to go be the hyper competent scout badass. the rest of the party, i really do get the sense, was not. plus we want to cover ground. I'm mostly thinking we players need a strategy where we do go ahead and scout, but the part members coming up behind take some part in the process. no just wait here. ok wait here now. how do other players handle this dynamic? like i said pretty sure the dms gonna do their part by not using traps for the most part

[HappyDaze]

Unfortunately, playing D&D "smart" tends to result in playing D&D slow. Decide within your own group if this is the style (and speed) of play that everyone is looking for, because expectations that don't match will mean someone thinks things are sucking.

[Aussiehams]

I'm having fun but i get to go be the hyper competent scout badass. the rest of the party, i really do get the sense, was not. plus we want to cover ground. I'm mostly thinking we players need a strategy where we do go ahead and scout, but the part members coming up behind take some part in the process. no just wait here. ok wait here now. how do other players handle this dynamic? like i said pretty sure the dms gonna do their part by not using traps for the most part

Maybe the DM would be willing/able to turn the whole "scouting" thing into a group skill challenge. While your forward the other members can be working on a puzzle in another area, dealing with a map, supporting you with a distraction etc.

[ad_hoc]

Sounds like the dungeon needs to be more dynamic.

Players should want to stick together more because of what might be hunting them.

Instead, you are hunting all of the monsters which takes the tension out of things.

[Glorthindel]

This isn't a you issue it's a player thing. Once a trap shows up in a dungeon that players are gonna be in for any length of time they EXPECT more they play like there are more, and they take the time even if there are not any more.

Are you all having fun? If so nothing needs to change, I Never prepare for x to take y time it never works that way. Just go with the flow other characters will get their time.

What you can do is ask the DM to increase what your investigate...well investigates. If you are in a 100 ft hall way ask if you can make 2 checks and cover the whole thing. Same with searching rooms. Doors there is not much you can do about.

We resolved this a similar way in a Hackmaster campaign i played in. The module was a pretty hefty dungeon crawl, with a lot of traps, and treasure hidden in many obscure places (the Temple of Existential Evil, a parody of the Temple of Elemental Evil).

To save time on us meticulously searching every nook and cranny, we devised a "standard search protocol" which listed the standard places we would search for traps and secret compartments in an array of standard dungeon furniture. Then the DM assigned the amount of time such a search would take, and how many tests for the various things, and when we rolled into a room we could simply say whether we were doing a standard search or not (and mention any specific extras we felt this room required) and he would tell us how many rolls to make. Reduced a potentially lengthy process into at most a minute, allowing us to swiftly move on with minimum game time wasted repeating processes we had mentioned many times before.

For example, in a desk, we would check the drawer for traps, the drawer for a secret bottom or compartment, check the underside of the desk for things stuck to the underside (once found a wands activation word this way) and tap the legs for hollow sections (once found a scroll this way). Rather than repeating this ad-infinitum, if there was a desk in a room we were going to standard search, the DM could just say "one traps check, one search check", we would decide who did what, make the rolls and move on.

[Pufferwockey]

Sounds like the dungeon needs to be more dynamic.

Players should want to stick together more because of what might be hunting them.

Instead, you are hunting all of the monsters which takes the tension out of things.

Agreed, but it was a module dungeon counting on xp mechanics to get us from level 1-3 so there was a lot of grind. He made it milestone and cut a bunch of grind out. We've left that and entered the campaign proper which is homebrew. Also I'm aware there's a lot that DMs can do wrong in design to promote playstyles other than what may be desirable by the standards of any given group, and this is the DMs first try at DMing so there'll be some mistakes but he's done great in terms of running the module and I think he'll do well with the stuff he comes up with. If it becomes apparent that he's consistently designing stuff that causes un-fun play, and it's on him to change it I'll make gentle suggentions.

In the mean time what I'm looking for is a ways for me as the player who most consistently plans the groups tactics to find ways to facilitate the fun of the less "intrepid" style characters. How can I make use of my and the rogues enhanced stealth abilities in a way that doesn't rob the non stealth characters? To be clear I want to make use of our stealth skills more so that we as players get rewarded for having those skills, as opposed to as like a commander making the best use of all available resources. Can I plan to, once we have scouted an upcoming encounter, deploy the heavies first, possibly sacrificing suprise?

Maybe a more useful more general question is how can I as a player running a combat guy suited to the dungeon crawl, help facilitate the fun for fellow players with characters geared more towards non combat encounters? Obviously no one ran a completely useless in combat character, but theres still a marked difference in utility with low level monk and dual wielding rogue clearing out multiple goblins and such first round of combat and a bard and cleric using vicious mockery/getting the odd mace attack in. I have a nasty habit of spotlight hogging if I don't actively suppress it and in extended adventures my character is more suited to than fellow pcs I can feel it get bad for the others.

I agree that keeeping the party together is good both in terms of safety in tough adventures and in terms of everyone getting a piece of the action, but then how do the stealth characters get to shine?

I like a lot of these suggestions guys, thanks.

[HiveStriker]

Agreed, but it was a module dungeon counting on xp mechanics to get us from level 1-3 so there was a lot of grind. He made it milestone and cut a bunch of grind out. We've left that and entered the campaign proper which is homebrew. Also I'm aware there's a lot that DMs can do wrong in design to promote playstyles other than what may be desirable by the standards of any given group, and this is the DMs first try at DMing so there'll be some mistakes but he's done great in terms of running the module and I think he'll do well with the stuff he comes up with. If it becomes apparent that he's consistently designing stuff that causes un-fun play, and it's on him to change it I'll make gentle suggentions.

In the mean time what I'm looking for is a ways for me as the player who most consistently plans the groups tactics to find ways to facilitate the fun of the less "intrepid" style characters. How can I make use of my and the rogues enhanced stealth abilities in a way that doesn't rob the non stealth characters? To be clear I want to make use of our stealth skills more so that we as players get rewarded for having those skills, as opposed to as like a commander making the best use of all available resources. Can I plan to, once we have scouted an upcoming encounter, deploy the heavies first, possibly sacrificing suprise?

Maybe a more useful more general question is how can I as a player running a combat guy suited to the dungeon crawl, help facilitate the fun for fellow players with characters geared more towards non combat encounters? Obviously no one ran a completely useless in combat character, but theres still a marked difference in utility with low level monk and dual wielding rogue clearing out multiple goblins and such first round of combat and a bard and cleric using vicious mockery/getting the odd mace attack in. I have a nasty habit of spotlight hogging if I don't actively suppress it and in extended adventures my character is more suited to than fellow pcs I can feel it get bad for the others.

I agree that keeeping the party together is good both in terms of safety in tough adventures and in terms of everyone getting a piece of the action, but then how do the stealth characters get to shine?

I like a lot of these suggestions guys, thanks.

" So I play a stealthy monk in a party with a combat oriented rogue, a heavily armoured cleric and a bard with poor stealth. I've been playing for decades but with many years of that time spent without a group so my expirience as a player is intermediatish. I generally prefer skimisher type characters, but havent often filled that role in a dungeon."

Hi!

1. Are you Shadow? I guess not, because otherwise Pass Without Trace should be your go-to tactic to allow "less sneaky" allies to come with you (you can also still make two "groups" but if they are more stealthy I'd gather they can more easily get "inside" a dungeon so reduce distance and time to act).
--> Try to find items that would make your friends more stealthy, or since you're a Monk unless you planned on reaching very very high level multiclass into Druid for up to 3 levels to get Pass Without Trace (as said) but also Healing Spirit and Goodberries (meaning the Cleric can more freely blow slots on offensive spells because you can restore lots of HP between encounters and even for 0HP restoration using up Goodberry with action on touch is sometimes enough).

2. Try to orient game so that Cleric has more chance to use all his "scout through divine information" features: Locate spells, divinity questioning rituals, and so on.

3. See how you could set up Bard's shiny by spying on people to get basic information on them then let him Suggest things for example, or make him accompany you so he uses up spells like Silence, Detect Thoughts or Enhance Ability to either feel great because he made you succeed, or take matters into his own hand.

To be honest, it's a bit hard to give concrete advice without further information about character builds and how they would usually approach an open-ended situation, so that's all I can say right now. I'll be happy to try and project more if you give more input. :)

[da newt]

One way is to ask the other PC's 'what do you think we should do here?' Let go of the reigns a bit and let them lead some too. Scout and investigate when requested, decide to take a more supportive role.

Maybe ask the Bard to provide a distraction for your sneak attack, or attempt to talk your way through stuff while the two sneaky sneaky guys get into position in case it goes badly.

Cleric should be involved plenty w/ both buffing and acting as your only viable meat shield / melee / hold the line type. The bard should be busy sweet talking everyone.
For you and the rogue - dungeons are where your scouting is most needed. Other environments will better emphasize the skills of the other PCs.

[ad_hoc]

Can I plan to, once we have scouted an upcoming encounter, deploy the heavies first, possibly sacrificing suprise?

How are you getting surprise so much?

And when you do get it are you instigating combat and then trying to run away? Because that sounds pretty bad to do.

Are you instigating combat and then waiting for your team to show up? That again sounds pretty bad to do.

There are times when stealthy characters can shine. That doesn't mean they need to shine all the time.

The only real fix here is for the DM to not allow characters off on their own to be so safe and effective.

I highly suggest the DM continue to run published adventures. Creating their own is probably not going to help in learning the game.

Pacing is a big thing that people don't have a good grasp on and it turns into the biggest problem when creating their own adventures.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I was a hexblade/rogue that played scout for awhile and had this problem for a bit. I'd say, the easiest way to do it is to streamline your activity.

We would go through a dungeon like normal, but I told the DM that I was always going to be about 30ft. ahead of the party while we moved, keeping an eye out. I'd roll stealth/perception, then we'd use that of we ran into anything. If I ran into a door, I'd listen in, wait for the party, then we'd all move forward.

I think the important thing is to not try to scout out the entire dungeon. No one seems to mind if you check behind what's the door ahead or if you give a heads up about what's immediately in front of everyone, but nobody wants to wait 30 minutes for you to run through the whole place solo. Honestly, I also found it more fun to be slightly more reactive than proactive when scouting.

Familiars have a big problem with this. I've always had to wait the longest whenever someone with a familiar decided to go scouting. Especially if it's something like a spider running around.

[HappyDaze]

I think the important thing is to not try to scout out the entire dungeon. No one seems to mind if you check behind what's the door ahead or if you give a heads up about what's immediately in front of everyone, but nobody wants to wait 30 minutes for you to run through the whole place solo. Honestly, I also found it more fun to be slightly more reactive than proactive when scouting.

Familiars have a big problem with this. I've always had to wait the longest whenever someone with a familiar decided to go scouting. Especially if it's something like a spider running around.

Arcane Eye can also do a recon sweep of huge chunks of a dungeon. And everybody but the caster gets bored to death really quickly.

[Pufferwockey]

How are you getting surprise so much?

And when you do get it are you instigating combat and then trying to run away? Because that sounds pretty bad to do.

Are you instigating combat and then waiting for your team to show up? That again sounds pretty bad to do.

There are times when stealthy characters can shine. That doesn't mean they need to shine all the time.

The only real fix here is for the DM to not allow characters off on their own to be so safe and effective.

I highly suggest the DM continue to run published adventures. Creating their own is probably not going to help in learning the game.

Pacing is a big thing that people don't have a good grasp on and it turns into the biggest problem when creating their own adventures.

Could be the dm was playing the suprise rules a little fast and loose. I know the 5e rules are simpler but in the moment I get a little mixed up between 3.5 and 5e. In any case it was a module dungeon with the goblins unaware of us. Our stealth and perception rolls were pretty good so we were consistently aware of mosters we were approaching before they were aware of us. For whatever reason we also managed to wipe those encounters pretty quickly. With two glass cannons we might lose half our hp in a round but we'd kill every threat with no one running off to sound the alarm. Maybe the DM just didn't think of other hostiles hearing the commotion or decided they were too far away.

Gonna have to respectfully disagree on the DM sticking to modules. Hes a new dm but a pretty expirienced player, I'm not nessesarily that big a fan of modules, and I'm interested in what he's come up with. If he feels overwhelmed he'll decide to lean of published material on his own initiative.

I agree that stealth characters don't need to shine all the time. My problem is bogging down the game when my character's stealth does seem appropriate.

Again, thanks everyone. Next time it comes up I'll work with the DM to try to streamline the process. MikeRoxTheBoat, I'll try the 30ft ahead policy and float using one roll each for stealth and perception... maybe just "passive stealth" for extended periods of stealthing? If we go with one role to handle an extended period I could make my life more stressful in a good way by asking the dm to roll my stealth and perception behind his screen