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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Monk and Ranger are the two least popular as far as I know.

    Monk has the usual problems of Cool but inefficient competing with Fighter and Barbarian.

    Ranger is more mixed than a Fighter.

    So same as every edition, but with the twist that the Fighter is better than previous editions.
    I don't think Monk is unpopular, just the people who dislike it really dislike it.

    I think Ranger is preferred to Fighter in 3.5, but that just might be on the forums.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Are you kidding? That's a huge restriction and a horrible trade. And Tranquility is still one of Open Hand's weaker features, whereas most of the Undying's features are even worse than Among the Dead. (Because Among the Dead is at least somewhat useful in an undead-heavy campaign, whereas Defy Death is situational, weak, and infrequent in any conceivable campaign.) Spare the Dying is a ranged version of a healer's kit, but monks are fast enough that a regular healer's kit is perfectly fine for them.
    I must say, as much as I tried to like this ability and use it well, it's one of the very few features of all classes and archetypes I fail to see a true use-case for.
    I mean, it *may* be useful to avert a surprise attack, but barring that...
    The only use-case I see for it is an OHM sent as a peace emissary, that needs to avoid agreeing to confrontation at all costs. Nice, but sooo situational it may never happen.

    I have trouble seeing other situations in which you'd meet a hostile party and still try your utmost to avoid retaliating.
    Unless you really decided to be the party face and invested enough into skills as a result.
    Or invested yourself to be the party spy and like having a safety belt if you need to bail fast.
    In fact, I'd really see that ability being perfect for a dual-class with a Redemption Paladin (ouch multiclass though) or a Life Cleric (fits the theme and you can use Channel Divinity without ending spell as well) or Trickster Cleric / Warlock (extra safety for your infiltrations)...
    Which is also a niche case considering how late you finally enjoy the combo.

    That's why, conversely, I'd probably put Open Hand in the overrated section: Quivering Palm is awesome, level 3 feature is overall useful and versatile, but the lvl 6 healing is just decent and the lvl 11 one is far too situational.
    No other archetype imo suffers such "low benefit levels".
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    Overrated: the Eldritch Knight. A lot of people consider it the best Fighter subclass or one of the two best. But the limitation on spell selection actually hinder the main point of the subclass. More than a third of your spells will be Evocation. But why would you care about blasting more than once in a while, especially with such a low level progression? What you need is enhancement and mobility, but you have only 4 spell for this, and then Abjuration spell to help your defences (which is rather good). Not what i would want out of an Eldritch Knight.
    I agree that EK is a bit ovverated at least as a pure class, compared to other archetypes, because ultimately he has so few spell slots for the day and (contrarily to, *for example*, Sorcerer) no way to optimize slot consumption.

    So in gritty days with hardly short rests it will pale compared to Champion but possibly fare better than Battlemaster.
    Provided days following guidelines, it will feel much stronger than Battlemaster in the biggest fight of the day (provided you know which it is) but otherwise will be "just as good".

    Where I disagree with you is on the spell selection: as someone posted before, you have largely enough good spell in both mandatory school to be content. Of course, your selection in those schools have a high chance to be close to other EK. I don't feel it as a big problem though. ^^
    Among the "free school" spells you get enough choice to either grab interesting utility or yet another fighting buff.

    As for the "why would I ever cast damage spells as a Fighter", it seems obvious to be honest: because those AOE spells shore up one big weak area of Fighter, which is crowd management.
    And, *no*, not every party has a dedicated (or even "off") blaster. ^^ So it may come in more handy than you think, even if it's a tough choice to use a rare spell on Fireball when you could Haste/Fly yourself for the entire fight instead.
    Last edited by HiveStriker; 2019-11-25 at 07:11 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93

    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveStriker View Post
    I must say, as much as I tried to like this ability and use it well, it's one of the very few features of all classes and archetypes I fail to see a true use-case for.
    I mean, it *may* be useful to avert a surprise attack, but barring that...
    The only use-case I see for it is an OHM sent as a peace emissary, that needs to avoid agreeing to confrontation at all costs. Nice, but sooo situational it may never happen.
    It's not quite that bad. If you're about to go into a dungeon, and you happen to have an Open Hand Monk in the party, you could send them in as an advance scout under Invisibility from the party wizard or bard. Their goal is to sneak around invisibly and bring back information about the dungeon layout, which creatures are where and how many, so the party can make good decisions about where to go and how to fight and in what order. Aura of Tranquility + invisibility + good Stealth + high movement rate should keep them relatively safe.

    Knowledge is power. I won't give any examples because you always seem to take offense at specific examples, but I'm sure I don't need to tell you how useful it is to know your enemyies' dispositions in advance when they don't know yours.

    A Shadow Monk does it better of course, but Tranquility makes this safer and isn't useless.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    I'll start. Remember this is opinion! The whole point is to throw out views that by definition will be controversial!

    My Irrational Hatred? Bard.

    I've gone off about this before, but in brief, I think their spell list is overrated and they rely too much on magical secrets. Their spells are powerful, but bore me. My distaste is so irrational I have legitimately played as a sorcerer, gotten expertise via a rogue dip, and flavored myself as a bard. I even took Vicious Mockery via Magic Initiate! So I'd say my opinions are fairly irrational. But good luck convincing me to change my mind! XD
    Sounds like Nale from OoTS:P "I always heard bards were underpowered. I'm a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer who specializes in enchantment spells."
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by cZak View Post
    You have me intrigued with this
    My main concern is to not bog town the time during sessions, but seems very cool
    Having 8 d20's that are paired off by color (1 pair per skeleton archer) and a d6 per color as well reduces turn glut substantially.
    Mine are Green, Blue, Red and Purple.
    If I have them attack normally I roll one d20 of each color and 1d6 of each color. If I am attacking at advantage or disadvantage I roll all of them.
    Attacks that land have their corresponding d6 deal damage (+proficiency bonus+2).
    I tend to also have them attack the same target for simplicity.

    I just resolved all 4 minion attacks in 1 dice roll.

    Instead of sitting there rolling and rolling and rolling my minions are resolved quickly and easily.



    Why is this overpowered? Spending a single third level spell slot to maintain 4d6+20 DPR FOR THE ENTIRE DAY as a bonus action IS RIDICULOUS.
    Have them abuse cover, stay spread out, hold their action for something to happen (this is one of my faves) or just give one command like "whatever the fighter attacks, you also attack it with your bow and take cover after you shoot"
    You spent 1 bonus action for 4d6+20 DPR for an entire combat....

    If they take damage they can spend healing dice during a short rest (OMG THANKS JEREMY CRAWFORD).

    If you're feeling like an *******, use disguise self to look just like one of them.
    Or Seeming to make EVERYONE look like a skeleton archer (with a subtle difference your teammates have been told to look for like small tears in the pants for enemies only) absolute bedlam...

    Oh that's right...you're still a fully fledged wizard behind this.
    You have things like Grease, Sleep, Web, Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Evard's Black Tentacles, Wall of Fire, Wall of Force to control fights and boost not only your party, but also your personal army (The skeletons really start to shine when they attack with advantage so giving everyone advantage on attacks just makes sense).

    You are now a Wizard that has strong sustained damage for long days, burst damage for tough encounters, self-healing from kills and wizard-tier crowd control.

    I would be surprised if your DM isn't a little bit awestruck.
    Last edited by TheUser; 2019-11-25 at 07:48 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Overrated: Any overly optimized character (Sorcadin, Sorlock/Coffeelock, Padlock, Bear Totem Moon Druid, etc.). As much as I have many issues with 5e, this edition is so balanced, building a character like this for reasons beyond roleplaying is so dull. If you're new to 5e, give one of em a good run and get it out of your system. Beyond that, there's plenty of ability in just about any other build.

    Underrated: Undying Warlock. So much that I wrote a guide in defense of it here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post23535972 I'm still peeved that Nerdarchy made a video about an entire party of Warlocks and still openly crapped on and left out the Undying.

    Irrational Love: Any necromancy/dark themed class/subclass. Sorry, I have to channel my inner goth somehow.

    Irrational Hate: Paladins. I didn't mind them until I played with a tyrannically Lawful Good Paladin player who insisted on immediatley killing any undead I created even when I tried to be as accommodating as possible (won't clog the board, will destroy after mission accomplished, etc.). From now on, I dread anyone in my group playing a Paladin when I plan on playing a necromancer, which is more often than not.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by LichPlease View Post
    Overrated: Any overly optimized character (Sorcadin, Sorlock/Coffeelock, Padlock, Bear Totem Moon Druid, etc.). As much as I have many issues with 5e, this edition is so balanced, building a character like this for reasons beyond roleplaying is so dull. If you're new to 5e, give one of em a good run and get it out of your system. Beyond that, there's plenty of ability in just about any other build.

    Underrated: Undying Warlock. So much that I wrote a guide in defense of it here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post23535972 I'm still peeved that Nerdarchy made a video about an entire party of Warlocks and still openly crapped on and left out the Undying.

    Irrational Love: Any necromancy/dark themed class/subclass. Sorry, I have to channel my inner goth somehow.

    Irrational Hate: Paladins. I didn't mind them until I played with a tyrannically Lawful Good Paladin player who insisted on immediatley killing any undead I created even when I tried to be as accommodating as possible (won't clog the board, will destroy after mission accomplished, etc.). From now on, I dread anyone in my group playing a Paladin when I plan on playing a necromancer, which is more often than not.
    Well see, the problem there is you played with someone who's an ass. Especially in 5e, nothing about Paladin requires a person to act this way.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Sounds like Nale from OoTS:P "I always heard bards were underpowered. I'm a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer who specializes in enchantment spells."
    Jesus, that's me. I've played several charisma characters(usually sorcs with a 1 level rogue dip) with magic initiate to get vicious mockery. I'll admit, it's a bit pathetic, but as long as I can roleplay as a sarcastic bard I don't feel obligated to take the class.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Well see, the problem there is you played with someone who's an ass. Especially in 5e, nothing about Paladin requires a person to act this way.
    Honestly, it was Pathfinder, but it was under PFS rules so the Paladin's jerk behavior shouldn't have been allowed anyway. I didn't want to have to hassle with the drama of reporting my friend who was running the game. That being said, I lump all Paladins together now, no matter the system.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    What do you think is the most overrated class or subclass? Bard
    What do you think is the most underrated class or subclass? Fighter
    What class do you irrationally love or hate irrespective of power levels or reasons. Fighter. Its so strong from levels 1 - 3, but then just turns into an auto attack machine, that gets outshined by other classes. We have afew cool stuff, like Elderitch Knight (but with 5e rules, its better to just go full wizard and get armor). We have afew cool things, but alot of our sub classes are just boring or wonky (not saying all are bad). I really hope that they take Rune Knight and work with that, because it'd be really fun, I just think its numbers need to drastically be reduced.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I think Ranger is preferred to Fighter in 3.5, but that just might be on the forums.
    Indeed.
    Out of core, the Fighter was a 2 to 6 levels dip for many builds. With every odd level beyond the first being basically useless.
    The Ranger was on the weak side in core, but still less weak than his 5E counterpart in the skills and utility department. However, he got much more support. The Fighter got more choice in feats, but not more powerful combos. While the Ranger got many ACF and a few key feats that make him much more powerful. With Mystic Ranger ACF, Shapeshifting ACF, Arcane Hunter ACF, Sword of the Arcane Order feat, and a few other things, the Ranger had a much higher ceiling. Not to mention that the base Ranger was useful out of fight contrary to the Fighter.


    Quote Originally Posted by HiveStriker View Post
    Where I disagree with you is on the spell selection: as someone posted before, you have largely enough good spell in both mandatory school to be content. Of course, your selection in those schools have a high chance to be close to other EK. I don't feel it as a big problem though. ^^
    Among the "free school" spells you get enough choice to either grab interesting utility or yet another fighting buff.

    As for the "why would I ever cast damage spells as a Fighter", it seems obvious to be honest: because those AOE spells shore up one big weak area of Fighter, which is crowd management.
    And, *no*, not every party has a dedicated (or even "off") blaster. ^^ So it may come in more handy than you think, even if it's a tough choice to use a rare spell on Fireball when you could Haste/Fly yourself for the entire fight instead.
    This is indeed where we disagree. I don't think there are enough interesting spells in those schools, at least not in Evocation. Or, rather, not interesting enough for the EK, at the level he gets them.
    And that's why i don't think blasting is interesting for a Fighter. Yes, the Fighter is lacking in crowd management, and a fireball is pretty good for this. But you get your Fireball at level 13.
    At this level, what kind of crowd are you facing? How tough are this crowd compared to the 28 average damages of the Fireball? And what is your normal ressourceless damage output per round? What about your party's ressourceless damage output?
    If you face 12+ enemies of CR 1 or lower, Fireball is perfect. But against 5+ enemies of CR 2, this is already less worthy of the spell slot and of your action probably. And both encounter are classified as "easy" for 4 level 13 PC..
    At this level, the Fireball is very situational. And it's by far the best 3rd level damage spell.
    So, yes, you probably want Fireball in your spells known. But you have 9 spells known, do you need 3 or 4 situational blast spells in your spells known?
    OTOH, Haste, Fly, Mirror Image, Misty Step, or even Phantom Steed will come in use much more often. They whether build on your strengths, or cover one of your weakness (mobility notably).
    Last edited by Petrocorus; 2019-11-25 at 09:25 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by LichPlease View Post
    Honestly, it was Pathfinder, but it was under PFS rules so the Paladin's jerk behavior shouldn't have been allowed anyway. I didn't want to have to hassle with the drama of reporting my friend who was running the game. That being said, I lump all Paladins together now, no matter the system.
    You do see the irony of this, yeah? That because of one bad experience, you now hunt for something to be upset about with every character who meets a common fantasy archetype, subjecting them to special scrutiny and constantly afraid they'll turn on you and do something horrible. As in...exactly what motivated the Paladin to be a jerk to your Necromancer.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    You do see the irony of this, yeah? That because of one bad experience, you now hunt for something to be upset about with every character who meets a common fantasy archetype, subjecting them to special scrutiny and constantly afraid they'll turn on you and do something horrible. As in...exactly what motivated the Paladin to be a jerk to your Necromancer.
    Umm... hence the "irrational hatred" part? And if the Paladin player lets me know up front they aren't going to be a jerk, I trust them. But yes, the bad experience makes me assume the worst at first. However, I have never been the one who has actively antagonized another player or tried to ruin their fun due to "roleplaying". Arguments in character ethics, fine. Intentionally sabotaging another player over it when unprovoked, never ok. Bonus: Rules that promote the later, bad idea.
    Last edited by LichPlease; 2019-11-25 at 10:18 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #104

    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This is indeed where we disagree. I don't think there are enough interesting spells in those schools, at least not in Evocation. Or, rather, not interesting enough for the EK, at the level he gets them.
    Why does it have to be evocation? What is wrong with just taking all of the interesting level 1 Abjuration spells, and the mostly-Abjuration interesting level 2 spells?

    And that's why i don't think blasting is interesting for a Fighter. Yes, the Fighter is lacking in crowd management, and a fireball is pretty good for this. But you get your Fireball at level 13.
    At this level, what kind of crowd are you facing? How tough are this crowd compared to the 28 average damages of the Fireball? And what is your normal ressourceless damage output per round? What about your party's ressourceless damage output?
    Going with the previous example, at level 13, 12 Githyanki Warriors are a Deadly fight, and an Action Surged pair of Fireballs is a good way to wipe out a huge chunk of them before they can Misty Step over and kill somebody squishy. Yes, you could rely on weapon damage instead, but that's ~600 HP worth of githyanki you're looking at--if you rely on weapons, you'll be lucky to take down 2 of them this round. This is exactly the kind of scenario Fireball is designed for: cleaning up mobs.

    Could someone else do even better with a different spell, say Hypnotic Pattern? Sure, maybe! But you might be the only one in the party who wins initiative, or their concentration might be busy with something else. (Maybe there's even more bad guys in the fight than just the twelve Githyanki, and they need their concentration for Wall of Force.)

    If you face 12+ enemies of CR 1 or lower, Fireball is perfect. But against 5+ enemies of CR 2, this is already less worthy of the spell slot and of your action probably. And both encounter are classified as "easy" for 4 level 13 PC..
    So don't use it in the easy fights then. Use it in the Deadly fights.

    At this level, the Fireball is very situational. And it's by far the best 3rd level damage spell.
    Right. Most of the time you'll be better off doing something else, and you probably don't want to even learn more than a couple of blasting spells. Evocation is good for Darkness (especially if you're Alert) and for the occasional Fireball, and maybe a Wall of Fire or Sickening Radiance, but for the most part EKs are about Abjuration spells and your handful of free pick enhancement/mobility spells.

    So, yes, you probably want Fireball in your spells known. But you have 9 spells known, do you need 3 or 4 situational blast spells in your spells known?
    Nope. Take Abjuration instead. There's plenty of good ones, more than you can actually afford to learn.

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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    LichPlease, I just read your undying warlock guide, and it seems like you've hit the same conclusions as me, but taken the opposite reading of them. We agree that the level 4 expanded spells and contagion are cool. But other than that...

    - disease comes up rarely, and even in Curse of Strahd I'm not getting much use out of undead protection. Spare the Dying is nice.

    -Defy Death is either a free death ward, or a small heal that rewards you for spare-the-dying your allies.

    -Undying Nature feels like something I need to go out of my way to make use of. Admittedly, this is usually the case for level 10 warlocks, but fiend gives resistance, archfey gives super countercharm, celestial is a free Inspiring Leader feat.

    -Level 14, when other warlocks are sending people on a mind-wrenching tour of hell (avg 50 psychic damage, 1 turn banish), mind controlling kings to do your bidding, breaking their mind in illusions, using your level 6 feature but coming back to half health & exploding for radiant damage to all enemies around you, the undying is......
    healing for ~18 hp as a bonus action per rest. You get a free Superior healing potion per long rest. Oh and you can glue limbs back on. Just like level 10, another feature that requires you to create situations for it.


    So 30% of the expanded spells are good, and the patron features are occasional heals and the ability to avoid parts of the game that come up rarely. Other patrons seem to give a lot more.







    I love the character of my warlock and how he's intertwined with his patron, and my DM has made my familiar into the party favorite, but sometimes I wonder if free death wards on my party is worth it.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    What do you think is the most overrated class or subclass?
    The Warlock, hands down no questions about it. People all over tell me how amazing the Warlock is, and I just can't see it. I have tried to play a single classed warlock before, I have tried Warlock multiclasses, and I have always come to the same conclusion, and that conclusion is "Huh, this would be a fine class were it not for the lack of resources". You get so few Cantrips, Spell Slots, and Invoations that it is infuriating. People keep telling me that the Warlock has a ton of customization...when it really doesn't.

    Sure, you have all these awesome invocations to choose from, but you get so few invocations that you're pigeonholed into a few specific ones until far too late. Sure, you get spell slots that come back on a short rest and all your spell slots are cast at the highest level, but you only get two of them. To make it worse, a fair amount of Warlock only spells don't scale with level very well, if at all. And finally, the biggest claim to fame for the Warlock is Eldritch Blast, which gets boring.

    Now, some people have told me that maybe I just need to get more Short Rests...but WHY? I play Monks, Battlemaster Fighters, and other Short Rest classes just fine, and I don't run out of resources nearly as often as I do the Warlock. And I'm not exactly stingy with my abilities. Warlocks are the ONLY short rest class that has an issue with resources, the others are just fine. Not to mention, as a DM I dislike players trying to Short Rest every single second, so I don't allow it. If I don't allow something as a DM, I'm certainly not going to do it as a player.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    What do you think is the most underrated class or subclass?
    I would have to say Valor Bard. Valor Bard's are seen as the black sheep of all the Bard subclasses, which is fair. Compared to the likes of the Lore, Whispers, Glamour, and Swords Bard, the Valor Bard doesn't seem like much. However, I find there's a lot more to it then one might think, you just need to really change your perception. You aren't the front line specialist, you're the front line support. Specifically, the Valor Bardic Inspiration is amazing for anyone on the front line. It allows them to add your Bardic Inspiration to their AC or their Damage...and it should be noted that the damage can be added after they hit, like a Paladin's Smite, while the AC is added after you see the roll.

    Meaning they can save their Inspiration for a crit, or they can save it after seeing what the DM rolled on a dice, which are both huge boons. And that's just Bardic Inspiration. On top of that you gain proficiency with Medium Armor and Shields, so you're pretty tanky, you gain Extra Attack, and eventually you gain the ability to make a bonus action attack after casting a spell. And honestly, I'd say that is far more useful on you then it is an Eldritch Knight, since you only get the normal base attack. So you aren't losing out on 4 attacks when you do this, just one.

    And you get all that on top of Magical Secrets, Expertise, Jack of All Trades, three skills of your choice, and being a full caster. So its not like you're giving up the ability to be a skill monkey. You're just a skill monkey that can serve as a party tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    What class do you irrationally love or hate irrespective of power levels or reasons.
    100% honest...its the Warlock...for the exact same reasons stated above. I just don't enjoy the class at all. I love the idea of the class and the flavor of it...but it just...I can't play it. Its too limiting. I have mentioned a fix for the class in the past, and that was give them an extra Invocation and spell slot. The spell slot can come at level 5, while the extra invocation should come at level 4. If you did that, I'd be fine with the class.
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2019-11-26 at 12:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    You get a free Superior healing potion per long rest.
    If you're still referring to Indestructable Life, the ability resets on a short rest. Probably not much of an improvement for you but there it is.

    As for the rest of your reply, I do understand why so many people think the Undying Warlock is weak but I had a great experience with it from levels 10 to 16. When I stated my problem with super optimized characters, this is one of the many other options that are definitely more "balanced" just due to how 5e plays as a whole. Yes, it is still on the weak side and could definitely be better but I also don't think it deserves the hate it gets. It does require more creativity on the player to make use of some abilities as well but with my experience, such opportunities came up for me often enough to impress my party and convince them I was unkillable. I think the Undying is designed for a more open world campaign and less ideal for a dungeon crawl.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Why does it have to be evocation? What is wrong with just taking all of the interesting level 1 Abjuration spells, and the mostly-Abjuration interesting level 2 spells?
    What level 2 Abjuration spell? Arcane Lock?

    Going with the previous example....... but for the most part EKs are about Abjuration spells and your handful of free pick enhancement/mobility spells.
    So we agree that this is a situational spell that you want to have and that you will use once in a while for the few situations it is very good for, and that most of the time you'll want to use your spell slot on something else.

    Nope. Take Abjuration instead. There's plenty of good ones, more than you can actually afford to learn.
    OK. Which ones?
    Obviously you want Shield and Absorb Element, but then? Protection from Evil and Good?
    Before level 13, those are the only relevant (for you) Abjuration spells. So at level 12 you'll have 8 spells known. 2 of any school (while there are plenty you'd want), those 3 from Abjuration and then 3 from Evocation. That probably means a quite situational Shatter and two very situational other blast spells.

    After level 13, you may want Counterspell and/or maybe Dispel Magic, despite your Int probably not being that good. Notably if there are no other caster in the party.
    And then? Non-detection? Protection from Energy?
    Both have their merits, but the first is situational and the second is a concentration spell, and you probably want to concentrate on Haste or Fly most of the time.
    You probably want Stoneskin too, but you'll get it at level 19.

    So, because of this limitation, you'll end up with a portion of your few spells known filled with situational spells, while being forbidden of using the very good buffs you can find in Illusion or Transmutation.
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    What level 2 Abjuration spell? Arcane Lock?
    [checks post #85] Looks like level 2 is good for Pass Without Trace (abjuration, requires Eberron) and Darkness (pseudo-Blur, requires Alert feat). If you don't have either of those then use your free pick on a 2nd level spell like Enlarge or Blur or Magic Weapon, and keep your first level pure Abjuration (Absorb Elements, Protection From Evil, Shield, Mage Armor).

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Evocation or Abjuration, and there's plenty of those to want. At 20th level you'll have nine Evoc/Abj spells and four free picks. Worthwhile Evoc/Abj spells include:

    Absorb Elements
    Protection From Evil
    Shield
    Mage Armor
    Darkness (note: pseudo Blur spell if you have Alert feat)
    Pass Without Trace (only available for Eberron, Mark of Passage or Shadow)
    Counterspell
    Dispel Magic
    Fireball
    Glyph of Warding
    Nondetection
    Banishment
    Fire Shield
    Wall of Fire
    Sickening Radiance

    That's way more decent spells than you can afford to pick anyway so the evoc/abj restriction isn't hurting you too badly. You can spend your free picks/concentration on e.g. Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Animate Dead, Polymorph for enhancement/meat shields/mobility.

    Sure, you've only got one or two blasting spells, but you can eventually use them well: surrounded by a mob of hostile 49 HP Githyanki, a single Fireball isn't going to do the job, but you can Fireball + Fireball and then make a bonus action weapon attack on top of that to finish off a survivor. You're like a cross between a Jedi Knight and Senator Palpatine.

    An Evoker would probably require two turns to wipe out that kind of beefy CR 2-3 mob (yes, yes, Simulacrum, I know).
    Moving on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    So we agree that this is a situational spell that you want to have and that you will use once in a while for the few situations it is very good for, and that most of the time you'll want to use your spell slot on something else.
    Absolutely. Animate Dead is a contender if it fits your roleplay and if you can charge it up with skeletons during downtime, since it's a very efficient no-concentration use of spell slots: up to 8 backup dancers (skeleton archers) on your bonus action who can also Help each other throw nets or spread caltrops. Maybe you have other preferences--in any case there's no shortage of good spells, and at that point you have two "free" picks (any school).

    OK. Which ones?
    Obviously you want Shield and Absorb Element, but then? Protection from Evil and Good?
    At 12th level you know 8 spells, and 6 of them have to be abjuration/evocation. Relying again on post #85, it looks like I'd probably pick Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Protection From Evil (works against most things Blur doesn't work on), Darkness (for the Alert combo, plus by RAW it grants advantage on ranged attacks because your targets can't see you although IMO that's dumb), and either Pass Without Trace (if I'm Mark of Passage or Shadow from Eberron) or Thunderwave otherwise. Then because I value mobility and overcoming weapon resistance I'd pick up Expeditious Retreat and Magic Weapon.

    Pretty good package for a fighter.

    Before level 13, those are the only relevant (for you) Abjuration spells. So at level 12 you'll have 8 spells known. 2 of any school (while there are plenty you'd want), those 3 from Abjuration and then 3 from Evocation. That probably means a quite situational Shatter and two very situational other blast spells.
    Why do you keep insisting on taking evocation spells? You don't have to take 3 and 3.

    After level 13, you may want Counterspell and/or maybe Dispel Magic, despite your Int probably not being that good. Notably if there are no other caster in the party.
    And then? Non-detection? Protection from Energy?
    Fireball, Counterspell, and another free pick. Haste is popular but I rather dislike it, especially as a self-buff for a Fighter. I've done Blink before, somewhat regretted it due to action economy, but it would work well in boss fights. (Shadow Blade is a possible consideration despite being nominally 2nd level.) From your post you'd apparently pick Haste or Fly, which... eh, I wouldn't, but it's up to you. I'm assuming that you probably prefer melee EKs, because that would explain the preference for Fly.

    Both have their merits, but the first is situational and the second is a concentration spell, and you probably want to concentrate on Haste or Fly most of the time.
    You probably want Stoneskin too, but you'll get it at level 19.

    So, because of this limitation, you'll end up with a portion of your few spells known filled with situational spells, while being forbidden of using the very good buffs you can find in Illusion or Transmutation.
    Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Protection From Evil, Darkness/pseudo-Blur, Pass Without Trace, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Fireball, Counterspell, Animate Dead, Shadow Blade, Sickening Radiance: I'm pretty happy with that list. A bunch of very solid go-to spells and a few situational ones like Shadow Blade/Fireball/Sickening Radiance/Expeditious Retreat that help fill in the gaps to make me confident in a wide variety of situations.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Overrated: Warlock; it's a better MC than it is a Class

    Underrated: Maybe Ranger? Not that I think rangers are a secret powerhouse but many opinions are so low that it's an easy bar to clear.

    Irrational Hatred: Druids. Most are either "Rwar, I'm a bear!" or Minionmancers and I hate minionmancy. Always feels like a combination of hogging the spotlight and clogging up the board, slowing down the game for the sake of "Look at all my pixies/spiders/wolves/etc".
    Last edited by Jophiel; 2019-11-26 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    I'm surprised you found "Undead Sanctuary" lacklustre in CoS, but I guess it does come down to a bit of luck and your party play style. As for the spell list, you've nailed the crux of it with those spells you mention (before Undying Warlock came along, I had entire builds revolving around trying to get Death Ward on a Warlock; that's some prime cheddar right there), but I'd give a little shout to Ray of Sickness as a really solid early pick, both for its great rider effect and decent enough scaling damage, which is something generally lacking from and desirable in Warlock spells, given that they're always cast at their highest level.

    Also, not needing to breathe, eat or sleep can be all sorts of handy too.
    False Life on Warlocks is also really solid.

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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by patchyman View Post
    False Life on Warlocks is also really solid.
    It's got a chance to give you 1-3 more temp HP than Armor of Agathys, but without the revenge damage. I prefer AoA. By level 5, dealing 15 damage back to your attack is better than having a tiny bit more temp hp


    I love the warlock thematically, and the customization is cool, but man playing one can sometimes be frustrating.
    Last edited by micahaphone; 2019-11-26 at 11:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    It's got a chance to give you 1-3 more temp HP than Armor of Agathys, but without the revenge damage. I prefer AoA. By level 5, dealing 15 damage back to your attack is better than having a tiny bit more temp hp.
    Yeah, False Life is garbage compared to AoA. I don't know what they were thinking when they decided to put that on the expanded spell list. It's probably the biggest issue with the Undying since it adds absolutely nothing. If anything it's a net loss as a waste of space.

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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by LichPlease View Post
    If you're still referring to Indestructable Life, the ability resets on a short rest. Probably not much of an improvement for you but there it is.

    As for the rest of your reply, I do understand why so many people think the Undying Warlock is weak but I had a great experience with it from levels 10 to 16. When I stated my problem with super optimized characters, this is one of the many other options that are definitely more "balanced" just due to how 5e plays as a whole. Yes, it is still on the weak side and could definitely be better but I also don't think it deserves the hate it gets. It does require more creativity on the player to make use of some abilities as well but with my experience, such opportunities came up for me often enough to impress my party and convince them I was unkillable. I think the Undying is designed for a more open world campaign and less ideal for a dungeon crawl.
    Maybe it's that I'm only at level 7, and these features are better in a higher level, open world game, but in your guide (which I did enjoy reading, your prose was pretty good), I feel like most of the cool stuff you did was from the base warlock class, Undying gave you ~3 good new spells and the ability to get back up when you're knocked down. That's nice, but I feel like I could probably do the same theme with another patron's mechanics.

    One extra note on your guide though - the Xanathar invocation (pact of the chain only) Gift of the Living Ones is a great fit for the feel of Undying. You get max rolls for any healing that's affecting you.

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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    This is simple:

    Overrated: I feel like Bards are a bit overrated - whenever I've actually seen one in play (or played one), the results have been kinda disappointing. I don't deny that they have a high optimization ceiling, but there are a lot of ways to mess them up (as compared to 3e, where "spam Inspire Courage" was always a workable plan).

    Underrated: The Monk. Seriously, they're a solid class (which surprises me, given how often D&D screws up the monk thing). They are unfairly denigrated by a paradigm that overly favors damage as the primary optimization metric!

    Irrational Hate: I hate Paladins as a class. Oh, it's nothing on paper - it's just that I played a Paladin in one of the most uncomfortable one-shots I've ever been in, and so they are entirely tarnished. Which is a shame, because I like the whole holy warrior thing - I still want to sit down and play my Celestial Bladelock "Paladin" in a game that isn't the DM wanting to be an auteur...
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    From your post you'd apparently pick Haste or Fly, which... eh, I wouldn't, but it's up to you. I'm assuming that you probably prefer melee EKs, because that would explain the preference for Fly.
    That's what i had in mind, though an archer EK will have a different spell selection obviously.

    Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Protection From Evil, Darkness/pseudo-Blur, Pass Without Trace, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Fireball, Counterspell, Animate Dead, Shadow Blade, Sickening Radiance: I'm pretty happy with that list. A bunch of very solid go-to spells and a few situational ones like Shadow Blade/Fireball/Sickening Radiance/Expeditious Retreat that help fill in the gaps to make me confident in a wide variety of situations.
    Then we will have to agree to disagree, because i would not be satisfied with this.

    Here's why:

    Shield: Yes, of course.

    Absorb Elements: Yes, of course.

    Mage Armor: Why??? At best, for a Dex build, this is a +1 on your AC at the cost of a spell known and a spell slot.

    Protection From Evil: (Concentration) Yes, probably.

    Darkness/pseudo-Blur: (Concentration) Cost an ASI. Granted, Alert is a good feat but you may not have room for it. And it won't benefit the rest of your party, so this may be an hindrance depending on the situation.

    Pass Without Trace: (Concentration) Very build specific. You need Eberron or maybe Ravnica and some specific option.

    Expeditious Retreat: (Concentration) Good but you may have a lot to do with your bonus action.

    Magic Weapon: (Concentration) Fine. If you don't already have a magic weapon at level 7. So campaign dependent.

    Fireball: Yes, sure. Notice this is the only blast spell you need.

    Counterspell: Yes.

    Animate Dead: Depend on your character, but yes, this is a very good spell.

    Shadow Blade: (Concentration) Good spell, but redundant with Magic Weapon if you're a melee fighter, and situational if you're an archer. I would prefer this one over Magic Weapon for melee fighter.

    Sickening Radiance: (Concentration) Good spell but not that impressive at level 19. What's the average Con save of your foes at this point?

    I also notice that 7 of this spell are concentration spells. There is also only one mobility spell.
    I think we don't have the same point of view on the same spells.
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    I would put Misty Step as my first level 2+ non-abj/evo spell. Particularly once you might end up getting stuck in a Force Cage or the like.

    I agree with your overall point Petrocorus. Limiting the spells to Abjuration and Evocation is clearly (and I think fairly deliberately) a solid constraint on the class abilities. However, given that it is in competition* with Battlemaster's superiority dice, Champion's Improved Crit., or Samurai's Fighting Spirit, it kind of has to be.
    *sort of, as you really have to judge an archetype holistically, as individual benefits are not always equal, especially spellcasting which advances as you level and clearly is weighted as a feature with that in mind

    An EK is not a fighter, but also 1/3-level wizard, they are a fighter with some of the qualities of a 1/3-level wizard. They can take care of some of the problems a fighter otherwise might need their wizard allies to solve for them (getting out of that Force Cage, putting magic on your weapon when you are about to face non-magical-weapon-resistant enemies and don't have a +1 weapon, putting up Protection from Good and Evil when the mind-controlling outsiders come into view), and the ability to throw down the occasional blast spell that might occasionally be useful (8 kobolds are still 4 separate attacks for a level 7 fighter, but potentially a single shatter). I'm pretty sure that's what they were intended to be, and yes it is a lot more limiting than open selection.

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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I would put Misty Step as my first level 2+ non-abj/evo spell. Particularly once you might end up getting stuck in a Force Cage or the like.

    I agree with your overall point Petrocorus. .... I'm pretty sure that's what they were intended to be, and yes it is a lot more limiting than open selection.
    I overall agree, i would have be perfectly fine with Abjuration + Transmutation or Abjuration + Illusion. I would have kept one single any-school spell known for blasting and another for tactical teleportation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Overrated: Bard. Just... Bard. They're like a Wizard with a worse spell list played by people who don't know how to play a Wizard. I won't deny that their Inspiration is super strong out of combat for the party, but... well, they attract the worst kinds of players and don't do anything.

    Underrated: non-Moon Druid. Is there a thing that needs to happen? You can do the thing, turn into something that can do the thing, or summon a critter designed to do the thing. Shepherd is the strongest class in the game until Wish and True Polymorph.

    Irrational Hate: Warlock.

    "I'm going to betray the party: the class!"
    "I'm going all in on Charisma: the class!"
    "I don't feel like running a coherent build, so I'll dip two levels in Warlock and be set for life: the class!"

    I'll cop to using it in builds, and it's OK in moderation, but... well, if we're going for cheesy games, up to three levels of Hexblade is acceptable. If we're in non cheesy games, I will sigh, and if you just have 4+ levels in Warlock at all, I will sigh.
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    Default Re: Most Over/Underrated Class?

    Overrated: Warlocks. And by this I mean single class Warlocks. Don't get me wrong, the Invocations are a lot of fun, and Eldritch Blast is a fantastic cantrip, but too much of your capability depends on how each individual DM incorporates short rests into the play sessions. Then there's the "feast and famine" aspect of the class. The first two levels of Warlock are responsible for 90% of the popularity of this class. After that though, you are in for a long, painful ride.

    Underrated: Monks. I hear and read a lot about how Monks are weak. I'm guessing these people played them for a few levels and quit. Monks start off slow, but they get something cool nearly every level. Players that are smart enough to boost a Monk's Wisdom as high as possible will find Stunning Strike to be a game changer. And then there's Long Death Monks. I have a Level 13 Long Death Monk. He's more unkillable than my level 20 Battlemaster.

    Irrational Hatred: Hexblade Dips. I was once in a high level [16-20] game at a convention where there were four "Warlocks" out of six characters in the party. Not one of them had more than three levels in Warlock. They were just "dipping" to boost the power of their Sorlocks and Hexadins. When I asked if any of them had considered going single-class Warlock all the way to 20, they just laughed.

    Irrational Love: Barbarians. Why do I, someone who always used to play "skill monkeys" in most RPGs, keep making and playing new Barbarians? A class that usually dumps the stats I like the most? I think it's because, without being able to magic or expertise your way through everything, you are forced to be clever in your roleplay. I like upending other players expectations for the class.

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