The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    My experience has been that Monks are probably the best 5th member of a party. If all of the traditional roles are filled, a Monk is a great force multiplier. In the hands of a less experienced or tactically savvy player, a Monk in a party of 3-4 can be pretty underwhelming.

    Monks and Bards can be a great addition to a party, but a lot of players donít really understand their roles.
    I would say that a bard can easily be one of the main 4, if I think of ideal 5th member I think Ranger.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    What are the core 4?
    Front liner, Skill monkey, Support and Offensive Caster?

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    What are the core 4?
    Front liner, Skill monkey, Support and Offensive Caster?
    I think in this case it almost doesn't matter what the core 4 are, as long as there are a few frontliners. Monks do best when enemies can't focus on them and they can pick their targets a little better.
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    What are the core 4?
    Front liner, Skill monkey, Support and Offensive Caster?
    I'd say, front-liner, healer/buffer, damage dealer, and primary caster.

    My prototypical party of four would be a Paladin, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    What are the core 4?
    Front liner, Skill monkey, Support and Offensive Caster?
    Striker, Defender, Controller, Leader, obviously!

    More seriously, a Monk can scout and sneak pretty well (especially Shadow Monks), and you're probably going to have a great Perception bonus. You'll be dealing a little less damage, but it should all work out just fine.
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Striker, Defender, Controller, Leader, obviously!

    More seriously, a Monk can scout and sneak pretty well (especially Shadow Monks), and you're probably going to have a great Perception bonus. You'll be dealing a little less damage, but it should all work out just fine.
    The issue is that they "can" do the role, but they are no better at it than anyone else with a decent dex, except the shadow monk but they have a glaring flaw that should have been errataed in long ago, why the crap can they not see through the shadows they make themselves? A shadow Sorcerer can do it, but not essentially a super ninja.

    The best scout in the game will always be a familiar, even more so if it is a chain pact familiar.

    The stealthy skill guy role took the biggest hit from old editions because anyone can have any skills they want and everyone gets at least 4.
    EVERYONE will take perception, to the point that they should just stop making it a skill and make it its own category.
    Past that all you really need is stealth, which anyone with a decent dex can have.
    Tool proficiencies mean very little, it is thieves tools and then other things that will probably never matter.
    Everyone can start with at least 2 tools so being trained in thieves tools does not mean much.

    I have seen a LOT of people play the NPC class of Expert over playing a rogue because they are just absolutely amazing as the support skill guy.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    The issue is that they "can" do the role, but they are no better at it than anyone else with a decent dex, except the shadow monk but they have a glaring flaw that should have been errataed in long ago, why the crap can they not see through the shadows they make themselves? A shadow Sorcerer can do it, but not essentially a super ninja.

    The best scout in the game will always be a familiar, even more so if it is a chain pact familiar.

    The stealthy skill guy role took the biggest hit from old editions because anyone can have any skills they want and everyone gets at least 4.
    EVERYONE will take perception, to the point that they should just stop making it a skill and make it its own category.
    Past that all you really need is stealth, which anyone with a decent dex can have.
    Tool proficiencies mean very little, it is thieves tools and then other things that will probably never matter.
    Everyone can start with at least 2 tools so being trained in thieves tools does not mean much.

    I have seen a LOT of people play the NPC class of Expert over playing a rogue because they are just absolutely amazing as the support skill guy.
    Inspiring Help is fantastic and is closer to what Bardic Inspiration should have been. I do agree that the stealthy skill guy has lost out compared to earlier editions (much like the Fighter).

    What would you say is the Monk's role in a party of four, then, since you're the one that brought it up? I'm legitimately curious.
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Inspiring Help is fantastic and is closer to what Bardic Inspiration should have been. I do agree that the stealthy skill guy has lost out compared to earlier editions (much like the Fighter).

    What would you say is the Monk's role in a party of four, then, since you're the one that brought it up? I'm legitimately curious.
    To be that extra 4th person after everything is covered with 3.

    Monk doesn't do anything better than other classes but move around and they have the absolute amazing ability of stunning strike.

    They are great at jumping in and putting a stunning fist on someone with a bad save.
    It is so good to the point that you really have to justify doing anything else to the point that people will ask, "Why did you not just stunning strike them?"

    The issue is, after that... not much.

    They have the lowest AC ceiling in the game. Every other class can multi class or take a feat to be able to wear better armor and use a shield but a monk can't, without losing what the main point of being a monk is.
    They have the second to lowest hit dice.
    All their great defense abilities are at the cost of almost half their offense.
    They have no feat support.
    They have no gear support for unarmed striking other than 1 item in a module that is never going to see print in any other random chart.
    No fighting style despite being the class that is supposed to live on great skill and not gear.
    Because 5e has a very rigid, 1 common 1 uncommon, save system they are not proficient in wisdom saves despite being the class that deserves it the most.
    Other than the trap option of kensei they do not get any support for being an archer despite having great dex almost being a requirement.
    They require better stats than any other class in the game.
    With the new feats they are testing, anyone with a fighting style can do the unarmed damage of LEVEL 11 monk, and get a grapple bonus on top of it.
    They are unarmed fighting style people but are one of the worst grapplers, due to grappling being just strength based.

    Monk's can't really cover any of the main roles. So in the normal group of 4 they have no place.
    If you have a great set of 3 then they might make an ok stun machine 4th person.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    I think you mean "discrediting" here, and I'm not sure I really agree.

    Although I don't agree with the broad statement that Misterwhisper is making here (stunning strike isn't the only good thing monks have) I do agree with their other statements, that Long Death build doesn't look very effective as a tank. I can't think of a party composition where I'd want such a frail frontliner, you're not usually going to even make use of your Touch of Death feature either with 10/12 Dex since your damage is going to suffer from your poor accuracy. Your poor accuracy also makes that fantastic feature we're talking about (stunning strike) much less reliable.

    Sure, after level 11 you can choose not do die up to 11 times but that doesn't really make you a tank. Smart enemies aren't going to be threatened by a Dwarf who can't kill them and whose greatest strength is dying later than his allies.

    Final two points, I'd be careful about pulling 2+ year old out of date/scrapped UA feats (Grudge Bearer, Brawny) to validate a proposed build. Not everyone is going to want to use those feats. Finally, Hour of Reaping also has friendly fire with a respectable range, you'd be putting yourself in great danger to avoid catching your own allies in that fear aura and if you don't you run the risk of fearing your own allies. It also takes an action, which means you aren't grappling/attacking that turn.
    1. Monks can use either STR or DEX with their Martial Arts. That's why that character had 15 STR and 16 STR soon enough after.

    2. 13 AC at low level is comparable to a 16 AC Barbarian that uses Reckless Attack. Except that Monk can instead use Dodge to boost AC, if not simply moving away with Dash.

    3. Tank, in my view, is not about simply soaking damage per se. It's about aggroing attacks. For midly intelligent enemies, there is no reason why they wouldn't try and attack a guy that seems so easy to hit.

    There is no argue that it's an unusual build, and that it would pale as a tank in a party with, say, a Paladin and a Barbarian.
    That character was in a party where the only other martial was a Ranger that mainly stayed at (mid) range, with a Land Druid and a Grave Cleric.
    This worked extremely well, Ranger using Fog Cloud to block vision as needed, Druid using also Fog Cloud / Spike Growth / Plant Growth to make enemies struggle with movement (something a Monk has much less trouble with as long as there is a minimum of running distance to set a high/long jump).

    Until level 5, we played heavily on the kiting side, and Cleric had to revive Monk quite a few time. Later, not so much: being the only one in melee, I had no trouble getting in for a kill on an enemy weakened by Ranger + Cleric, or luring enemies near me then using Fear before I jump back, with Druid casting Plant Growth around (since you can leave patches of "free terrain", you simply need to plan around Monk's jumping distance), effectively leaving enemies with little ways to reach backliners, with me herding those that resisted Fear back into difficult terrain. Or Grappling an enemy into and around Spike Growth while staying on the right border.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveStriker View Post
    1. Monks can use either STR or DEX with their Martial Arts. That's why that character had 15 STR and 16 STR soon enough after.
    1: Right, that was an oversight on my part.
    2: The Barbarian has damage mitigation (that is going to apply often at this level) and probably more hit points even with as much work as you've put into boosting the Monk's.
    3: They would recognize that, they would also recognize that the Monk may not be a threat to them and is too much of a hassle to take down right now. Barbarian runs into the same issue, you can be the biggest sponge of a man with HP in the triple digits but if you can't threaten your enemies with harm they're going to ignore you until you're left standing alone. This is why I am of the opinion that Paladin makes a much better tank than Barbarian (almost all the time, but not always) because a Paladin can do absolutely nothing but stand next to their allies and still be an imposing presence on the battlefield.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    To be that extra 4th person after everything is covered with 3.

    Monk doesn't do anything better than other classes but move around and they have the absolute amazing ability of stunning strike.

    They are great at jumping in and putting a stunning fist on someone with a bad save.
    It is so good to the point that you really have to justify doing anything else to the point that people will ask, "Why did you not just stunning strike them?"

    The issue is, after that... not much.

    They have the lowest AC ceiling in the game. Every other class can multi class or take a feat to be able to wear better armor and use a shield but a monk can't, without losing what the main point of being a monk is.
    They have the second to lowest hit dice.
    All their great defense abilities are at the cost of almost half their offense.
    They have no feat support.
    They have no gear support for unarmed striking other than 1 item in a module that is never going to see print in any other random chart.
    No fighting style despite being the class that is supposed to live on great skill and not gear.
    Because 5e has a very rigid, 1 common 1 uncommon, save system they are not proficient in wisdom saves despite being the class that deserves it the most.
    Other than the trap option of kensei they do not get any support for being an archer despite having great dex almost being a requirement.
    They require better stats than any other class in the game.
    With the new feats they are testing, anyone with a fighting style can do the unarmed damage of LEVEL 11 monk, and get a grapple bonus on top of it.
    They are unarmed fighting style people but are one of the worst grapplers, due to grappling being just strength based.

    Monk's can't really cover any of the main roles. So in the normal group of 4 they have no place.
    If you have a great set of 3 then they might make an ok stun machine 4th person.
    I hate to beat a dead horse but I don't think I could have said it any better than misterwhisper. They are one of the weakest if not the weakest class in the game.
    Last edited by Tzun; 2019-12-04 at 03:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    Yeah, only the Monklock would be something Iíd consider for actual use. That one has actual value as a mage killer and general selfish combatant due to Darkness/Devilís Sight. Note that that build doesnít even quite work, since it only has 12 Wis, while you need 13 to multiclass. The others are just kinda not great.

    Not sure how youíre getting +2 HP per level on the sea elf, considering how it only has a +3 Con compared to +2 for the normal monk.

    The grappler build could be done better by a Monk/Rogue with expertise in Athletics and decent Wis for Stunning Strike, which allows you to grapple without a check.

    The Long Death build works, but is hardly a Wis-dumping build.

    Stunning Strike isnít the Monkís only valuable feature, but itís a very powerful and unique ability they have, and itís a substantial part of the classís strength.
    On Monklock, I must have messed up with the attribute point calculator, I tried to make the post quickly because not much time. Sorry for that, I don't remember if it was on purpose (using a feat to get requirement) or if I mixed up the stats of then.
    It does work quite well though, I can assure you that. :)

    Same on the +2 HP per level on Sea Elf, I was probably talking of level 4 when you take a feat bumping CON.

    Grappler build could indeed be much easier with a Rogue dip, no argue here. I wanted to focus as much as possible on pure Monk builds though. Monk + Sorc or Lock was an exception because those work so well together if you're ready to invest into CHA. :)

    Long Death build was not a WIS-dumping build, it was a DEX-dumping build (going WIS first, then STR and CON). :)

    I completely agree that Stunning Strike is a substantial part of Monk's greatness... But the sweet point from what I've seen to use it is between levels 7 and 13: when you start getting enough Ki and enough ways to get short rest to "half-spam" it (like 2-3 Ki reserved for it every fight), yet have still decent chance to make it succeed because CON bonus on enemies are still below +7 or +8.
    Even there, rarely do players (me included) in games makes "first rolls" where that "missing +1" would have actually made a difference. Our shared feeling is that "at mid-tier, always consider you need to chained attacks to land SS. Past level 14-15, count on three or four depending on enemy.

    In other words, party always count on worse case and plan around, while still having ways to adapt in case of an early success.
    That is why I advocate that Monk have no *obligation* to push WIS to max, if they have something specific in mind that would be better improved with a feat or multiclass. 1 point seems a big difference, but it's not in practice unless you're really actually doing only one attempt and that attempt decides of the life or death of the party.

    Same as why I advocate that Monks can equally forget about pushing DEX to the max because some archetype paired with multiclasses or feats to push accuracy much further than plain DEX bump, or instead focus on WIS-related abilities.

    That's why, for example, I'd certainly max WIS on an Open Hand if I'll reach level 17, because Quivering Palm is something I'd hate to miss considering how "hostile" a move it is.
    But my Wood Elf Kensei Monk, level 8, with Mobile (because melee) and Elven Accuracy (because Druid with Faerie Fire, Rogue with Grappler), was much more enjoyable and much more efficient than same Monk with 18 WIS and DEX at level 8.

    I also played a Long Death Monk / Life Cleric, which worked extremely well... As a Life Cleric with Monk shenanigans. Hence the "pure Monk" tank aforementioned, because I wanted to try it out "playing like a Monk". ;) I simply waited to have a party it would work well with.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveStriker View Post
    On Monklock, I must have messed up with the attribute point calculator, I tried to make the post quickly because not much time. Sorry for that, I don't remember if it was on purpose (using a feat to get requirement) or if I mixed up the stats of then.
    It does work quite well though, I can assure you that. :)

    Same on the +2 HP per level on Sea Elf, I was probably talking of level 4 when you take a feat bumping CON.

    Grappler build could indeed be much easier with a Rogue dip, no argue here. I wanted to focus as much as possible on pure Monk builds though. Monk + Sorc or Lock was an exception because those work so well together if you're ready to invest into CHA. :)

    Long Death build was not a WIS-dumping build, it was a DEX-dumping build (going WIS first, then STR and CON). :)

    I completely agree that Stunning Strike is a substantial part of Monk's greatness... But the sweet point from what I've seen to use it is between levels 7 and 13: when you start getting enough Ki and enough ways to get short rest to "half-spam" it (like 2-3 Ki reserved for it every fight), yet have still decent chance to make it succeed because CON bonus on enemies are still below +7 or +8.
    Even there, rarely do players (me included) in games makes "first rolls" where that "missing +1" would have actually made a difference. Our shared feeling is that "at mid-tier, always consider you need to chained attacks to land SS. Past level 14-15, count on three or four depending on enemy.

    In other words, party always count on worse case and plan around, while still having ways to adapt in case of an early success.
    That is why I advocate that Monk have no *obligation* to push WIS to max, if they have something specific in mind that would be better improved with a feat or multiclass. 1 point seems a big difference, but it's not in practice unless you're really actually doing only one attempt and that attempt decides of the life or death of the party.

    Same as why I advocate that Monks can equally forget about pushing DEX to the max because some archetype paired with multiclasses or feats to push accuracy much further than plain DEX bump, or instead focus on WIS-related abilities.

    That's why, for example, I'd certainly max WIS on an Open Hand if I'll reach level 17, because Quivering Palm is something I'd hate to miss considering how "hostile" a move it is.
    But my Wood Elf Kensei Monk, level 8, with Mobile (because melee) and Elven Accuracy (because Druid with Faerie Fire, Rogue with Grappler), was much more enjoyable and much more efficient than same Monk with 18 WIS and DEX at level 8.

    I also played a Long Death Monk / Life Cleric, which worked extremely well... As a Life Cleric with Monk shenanigans. Hence the "pure Monk" tank aforementioned, because I wanted to try it out "playing like a Monk". ;) I simply waited to have a party it would work well with.
    Yea i think the monk tank is a valid option that gets disregarded alot. With solid all around defense and judicial use of patient defense a monk can be one tough Frontline.
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Out of curiosity, for those looking at damage output why is the comparison made with the Fighter and not with a Rogue?

    Generally in combat the Monk fills a role similar to Rogue. Out of combat the Monk is certainly less versatile, but I find he can makes just as good a scout, especially once he can move along vertical surfaces.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    Out of curiosity, for those looking at damage output why is the comparison made with the Fighter and not with a Rogue?

    Generally in combat the Monk fills a role similar to Rogue. Out of combat the Monk is certainly less versatile, but I find he can makes just as good a scout, especially once he can move along vertical surfaces.
    Because rogue damage goes up steadily every 2 levels, rather then jumping up only at ASI's and with extra attack, making the comparison a little more annoying. Rogues also tend to attack at advantage, and get more value out of a critical hit.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    Out of curiosity, for those looking at damage output why is the comparison made with the Fighter and not with a Rogue?

    Generally in combat the Monk fills a role similar to Rogue. Out of combat the Monk is certainly less versatile, but I find he can makes just as good a scout, especially once he can move along vertical surfaces.
    If anything I use the standard champ fighter with SnB and duelist as my control for damage potential. If you match or exceed it your damage is just fine if not wasted resources.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    I will point out that a value of a class depends on what youbwant, if you want to dominate the battlefield, play a wizard or a cleric only

    Personally, I want to test various builds and multiclassing potentiam so for me worst class is barbarian.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    I will point out that a value of a class depends on what youbwant, if you want to dominate the battlefield, play a wizard or a cleric only
    yep... ish

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    My experience has been that Monks are probably the best 5th member of a party.
    yep. I usually take criminal background if the party does not have a rogue; or even if it does have one. I like to pick locks, and to hide. I am a rogue/thief at heart, I guess.
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Because rogue damage goes up steadily every 2 levels, rather then jumping up only at ASI's and with extra attack, making the comparison a little more annoying. Rogues also tend to attack at advantage, and get more value out of a critical hit.
    Well a Monk gets more Ki which means more FoB, so I could argue his damage increases every level.

    Even without FoB the monk is dealing similar damage up to level 5 where he gets a big increase the Rogue doesn't. A Rogue only catches up at level 9 and pulls ahead a decent amount by level 13. But obviously a Monk at that level is going to be using Ki and so realistically will be ahead of the Rogue.

    But regardless, tactically a Rogue and a Monk will fill the same role. They will move around the battlefield and attack opportunistically. That's why it makes sense to compare them, they are filling the same combat role.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    If anything I use the standard champ fighter with SnB and duelist as my control for damage potential. If you match or exceed it your damage is just fine if not wasted resources.
    Well the Monk does comparable damage to a S&B Fighter without using Ki until the Fighter gets his 3rd attack. But by that time the Monk has enough ki to FoB every round, and if he does that his damage stays comparable with the Fighter.

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Just don't do what one of my party members is doing (we're at 2nd level) - she's a Fighter 1/Monk 1 who is planning on going the rest of the way in Monk (specifically Kensei).

    Her character is still wearing her chainmail. So the first level of Monk gives her... 5+Con HP? And nothing else?
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    They have the lowest AC ceiling in the game. Every other class can multi class or take a feat to be able to wear better armor and use a shield but a monk can't, without losing what the main point of being a monk is.
    I find this a misleading and completely wrong.

    A Monk's AC ceiling assuming nothing but stat increases is 20. The same as someone would get by multiclassing or taking feats, unless they take the Fighting Style to get a 21.

    Going pure class, Rogues and Wizards are far lower, and sure, they can invest, but investing in AC through feats or levels of fighter and needing the strength to wear plate is a massive resource expenditure that is not being used to make them better wizards or rogues.

    Without that investment the Rogue is likely looking at 17 or 18, and the wizard is likely sitting at a 15 even with mage armor active.


    And, if we are going to include multi-classing and feats, we might as well include magic items. While armor wearers could possibly end up with a +3 plate and +3 shield for a massive 27 max, a monk could get bracers and AC boosting items as well, keeping them at least up to 24 off the top of my head, and netting a +2 to their saves as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    They have the second to lowest hit dice.
    Again, misleading statement. Most classes in the game have the second lowest hit die.

    13 classes in the game.

    Barbarian has a 1d12 (1/13)
    Fighter, Paladin and Ranger have 1d10 (3/13)
    Cleric, Druid, Bard, Monk, Warlock, Rogue and Artificer have a 1d8 (7/13)
    Wizard and Sorcerer have a 1d6 (2/13)

    When more than half of the sample size has the same die, whether it is the second lowest or not, it is the average. Seriously, 6 of the classes have a different die, while 7 have a 1d8. The clear majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    All their great defense abilities are at the cost of almost half their offense.
    You mean bonus action dodge or disengage? Sure, that takes a lot of offense.

    Evasion doesn't.
    Gaining Prof in all saves doesn't.
    Being able to reroll a save costs a little ki, so.. very little offense lost.
    Deflect Missiles is a reaction, very little offense lost in using that.
    Empty body costs ki, so debatable.
    Slow fall doesn't.

    And that completely ignores the fact that high mobility lends itself to defense, if you can get away from the enemy, they can't attack you.

    So, once more, a misleading statement to say "all their great defenses" cost "half their offense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    They have no feat support.
    I will grant you, they have limited feat support. This is something that should be addressed. That being said, they can take a few different feats that are useful.

    Mobile makes it easier to get in and out without sacrificing offense.
    Polearm master gives them reaction attacks if people get near them
    MAge Slayer can make them deadly to concentration when combined with their ability to hit the back line
    Magic Initiate can offer them a wide range of benefits, including solid ranged options.
    Tough helps counter their hp

    None of them are perfect fits, but they aren't useless either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    They have no gear support for unarmed striking other than 1 item in a module that is never going to see print in any other random chart.
    Another good point, more magic items could be very interesting, and there is definitely space for unarmed strike enhancing gear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    No fighting style despite being the class that is supposed to live on great skill and not gear.
    Sort of true.

    Martial arts bakes in the bonus of the Two-Weapon Fighting style to a large degree, and gives them the ability to use some strength weapons as finesse weapons. That is very possible to see as a fighting style despite not being labeled "fighting style"


    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Because 5e has a very rigid, 1 common 1 uncommon, save system they are not proficient in wisdom saves despite being the class that deserves it the most.
    Huh, didn't notice that before. Yeah, that is weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Other than the trap option of kensei they do not get any support for being an archer despite having great dex almost being a requirement.
    No support doesn't make them bad archers though, they are decidely average at it. And, they are working some ranged ki options in with the class variants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    They require better stats than any other class in the game.
    No.

    They might really benefit more from having two stats at 20, but they don't require it, and your phrasing implies that every other class only requires an 18, which is a weird statement to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    With the new feats they are testing, anyone with a fighting style can do the unarmed damage of LEVEL 11 monk, and get a grapple bonus on top of it.
    Very true, I've been worried about that.

    However, they only get it with their base attacks, for which the monk is usually using a staff or spear for 1d8's anyways. But, definetly a worrying aspect I've been considering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    They are unarmed fighting style people but are one of the worst grapplers, due to grappling being just strength based.
    True, but being dex based they are incredibly hard too grapple?

    Yeah, I could see giving them a way to grapple with dex. That isn't too unbalancing.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    As far as roles in a party, monks aren't the best tank, aren't the best striker/damage dealer, aren't the best controller, aren't the best healer/buffer.

    The one role that monks are supposed to be the best at, skirmisher which by the way is more of a play style than "role", rogues are better at by a mile. Ranged attack with bonus action hide beats the pants off any cute movement bonuses monks get (which rogues get as well). And the rogues offensive ability (sneak attack) does not conflict with their defensive ability (bonus action hide) unlike the Monk who is forced to choose.

    And even the tertiary roles such as scout and skill monkey, monks aren't the best. So to the OP, I agree the monk's role is as a 5th member when all the roles are already taken because they aren't the best at anything. On a positive note, they are versatile enough to fill many of the roles somewhat adequately, although bard probably has them beat in this regard as well.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzun View Post
    As far as roles in a party, monks aren't the best tank, aren't the best striker/damage dealer, aren't the best controller, aren't the best healer/buffer.

    The one role that monks are supposed to be the best at, skirmisher which by the way is more of a play style than "role", rogues are better at by a mile. Ranged attack with bonus action hide beats the pants off any cute movement bonuses monks get (which rogues get as well). And the rogues offensive ability (sneak attack) does not conflict with their defensive ability (bonus action hide) unlike the Monk who is forced to choose.

    And even the tertiary roles such as scout and skill monkey, monks aren't the best. So to the OP, I agree the monk's role is as a 5th member when all the roles are already taken because they aren't the best at anything. On a positive note, they are versatile enough to fill many of the roles somewhat adequately, although bard probably has them beat in this regard as well.
    Late game they can be one heck of a tank. About on par with a barbarian with the added bonus of being seriously hard to pin down.
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  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    The unfortunate aspects of 5e are the classes are obviously not designed to be equal.

    You can play a simple "grunt" (no offense) there is the champion fighter
    Or a jet pilot and play a paladin/warlock/bard/sorcerer.... awesome go for it.

    You're choosing to play a character and choose a race and class and background to fit.

    And yes in 5E the classes and combinations and feats cause a blur. A wizard can take life cleric and tank in heavy armor and is as powerful as any other build. And yet still be a wizard.

    You can easily play a rogue/fighter and pass it off as a monk.

    This is 5E, the combinations are endless and some extremely potent in every pillar of play... at the same time.

    You can play a moon shapeshifting powerhouse druid... or that druid who makes potions and eats bark and occasionally turns into a hummingbird or mouse.

    Now what I want for monk.... cool moves.
    Flying sidekicks. Some Van-Damage. Something like this. Monks are missing that.

    Yes they are skirmishers... But once in a while if they could drop that flying knee to the face... that's fun.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzun View Post
    As far as roles in a party, monks aren't the best tank, aren't the best striker/damage dealer, aren't the best controller, aren't the best healer/buffer.

    The one role that monks are supposed to be the best at, skirmisher which by the way is more of a play style than "role", rogues are better at by a mile. Ranged attack with bonus action hide beats the pants off any cute movement bonuses monks get (which rogues get as well). And the rogues offensive ability (sneak attack) does not conflict with their defensive ability (bonus action hide) unlike the Monk who is forced to choose.

    And even the tertiary roles such as scout and skill monkey, monks aren't the best. So to the OP, I agree the monk's role is as a 5th member when all the roles are already taken because they aren't the best at anything. On a positive note, they are versatile enough to fill many of the roles somewhat adequately, although bard probably has them beat in this regard as well.
    Rogues aren't the best tank, striker/damage dealer, controller, healer/buffer either. Do they also have no role in a party?

    If the Rogue is using ranged with BA Hide, then they are making 1 attack per round, whereas a Monk can be making 4 attacks. Even with SA, the monk is going to out damage the rogue in that situation.

    I'd also point out that BA hide is very much dependent on there being something to hide behind which is not always the case. And if opponents rush past the front-liner to engage the Rogue in melee then he'll lose that ability, and potentially his SA damage too. So the Rogue is much more dependent on circumstances then the Monk. And if opponents are blocked from engaging the Rogue, then they are equally blocked for the Monk who can move up attacks and move back and be just as protected as the Rogue.

    As for the role of scout, the Monk does it differently but is often just as if not more effective. Sure the monk won't have as good a stealth check, but his mobility advantages will mean in many situations he won't need to sneak past the guards, he'll simply take a path that isn't guarded at all.

    And as a general note, in 5e you don't really need a Skill Monkey. Every class has every skill/tool available to them so a party of 4 can cover every skill/tool that's needed anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    Yes they are skirmishers... But once in a while if they could drop that flying knee to the face... that's fun.
    Isn't the flying knee to the face what Stunning Strike represents?

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    1: Right, that was an oversight on my part.
    2: The Barbarian has damage mitigation (that is going to apply often at this level) and probably more hit points even with as much work as you've put into boosting the Monk's.
    3: They would recognize that, they would also recognize that the Monk may not be a threat to them and is too much of a hassle to take down right now. Barbarian runs into the same issue, you can be the biggest sponge of a man with HP in the triple digits but if you can't threaten your enemies with harm they're going to ignore you until you're left standing alone. This is why I am of the opinion that Paladin makes a much better tank than Barbarian (almost all the time, but not always) because a Paladin can do absolutely nothing but stand next to their allies and still be an imposing presence on the battlefield.
    Certainly, Barbarian has a lot more of effective HP if you only consider connecting attacks.
    I'll argue that Monk has much more "effective AC": between mobility that outpace most enemies until late-half game, Dodge as bonus action, and Deflect Arrows, they are really hard to pin down and surround.

    So unless you're fighting in really cramped areas or really facing overwhelming archery fore, Monk can be as resilient as a Barbarian.

    As for how Monk would aggro: it would certainly not work the whole fight, and probably not even past the first or second round if you immediately display the difference of speed.
    Like the Barbarian (and unlike Paladin), it doesn't have any decisive tool to force enemy decision process.
    Unlike the Barbarian, unless provided by archetype (Open Hand Flurry, 4E) or specifically built for it (confer my example), it doesn't have any reliable way to at least stop/limit enemy movement by halving/stopping it (usually DEX based, no advantage) besides landing a Stunnign Striker

    So, indeed, before taking archetype features into account, all it has for it is looking like the easiest target (unless you have lots of ki to blow).
    If your the only martial in a party and casters have no way to act upon vision/mobility, Monk is clearly near useless unless he relies solely on Ki. In such a case, yeah, pushing WIS should be even higher priority than DEX (many ways to provide advantage to you from spells, party ought to have at least one), because even Sentinel goes only so far.
    Note that in such a party, Barbarian would not fare much better. Only some archetypes of Paladin really can "make a frontline of their own", as well as mid/high level of Ranger (and only if select spells chosen).
    If casters have such tools, then it works well, long enough, to alter the force balance in your favor. Same with casters having AOEs. On equally "optimized" characters caster/Monk, at level 8, Monk would have +8 to roll against 16. It's a risky bet, but with guaranteed "half-damage at worst", it's sometimes worth if Monk managed to aggro a group of monsters thinking it was some stupid guy rushing to his death because confusing bravery with stupidity.

    Of course, if party is using the same tactic every fight, enemies will adapt. But that is true of every tactic. ^^

    Also, you won't have me contradicting the assertion that Paladin is the best built-in tank of all classes. Ceeertainly not (unless we are speaking purely of level 18 to 20 ^^).

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Not sure why so many players undervalue monks, but we all have our own likes and dislikes, and that's OK. In fact, it's what drives Dnd. However I want to point out some possible features that haven't gotten much space in this thread. Yes, they are level and sometimes Path dependent but still...

    Never without a magic weapon
    Walk on water
    Climb walls at full speed without falling
    Immune to poison, diseases, and can get rid of charm, fear effects
    Can talk to anyone that can speak
    Can get full attacks while climbing a rope and holding on with both hands (their feet are MA weapons too)
    Can knock an opponent prone with FOB or push the opponent back 15ft
    Monk weapons can do their MA damage--so a d8 dagger at high levels.

    Yes, it is also true that against puddings, slimes, etc, anything you don't want to touch --not so good.

    Take a 10th level pally with a long sword and an L10 monk with a kama. Both roll d8 dmg, probably same bonuses via Dex or Str, only the monk attacks 4x/round for a while or can prevent OA while running away after each attack.

    Agreed that they are not tanks, maybe just APCs?

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Explain to me the value of a monk

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnWildefyr View Post
    Not sure why so many players undervalue monks, but we all have our own likes and dislikes, and that's OK. In fact, it's what drives Dnd. However I want to point out some possible features that haven't gotten much space in this thread. Yes, they are level and sometimes Path dependent but still...

    Never without a magic weapon
    Walk on water
    Climb walls at full speed without falling
    Immune to poison, diseases, and can get rid of charm, fear effects
    Can talk to anyone that can speak
    Can get full attacks while climbing a rope and holding on with both hands (their feet are MA weapons too)
    Can knock an opponent prone with FOB or push the opponent back 15ft
    Monk weapons can do their MA damage--so a d8 dagger at high levels.

    Yes, it is also true that against puddings, slimes, etc, anything you don't want to touch --not so good.

    Take a 10th level pally with a long sword and an L10 monk with a kama. Both roll d8 dmg, probably same bonuses via Dex or Str, only the monk attacks 4x/round for a while or can prevent OA while running away after each attack.

    Agreed that they are not tanks, maybe just APCs?
    Note that Monks only get a d8 to all attacks at level 11, before that they need to use a spear/quarterstaff in both hands, and their unarmed strikes are only a d6. A paladin most likely has the Dueling fighting style, boosting their damage, and at level 11 has improved divine smite, giving them an extra d8 on all their attacks.

    Of all military vehicles, they are most like an armored car. Fast and mobile, easily able to get to squishy targets that it can lock down very effectively with Stunning Strike, while having enough durability to take a few hits on the way there. Monks also do pretty well against multiple targets, better than rogues certainly, who are basically dead if alone against foes that they canít disengage from effectively (ie fast monsters). Monks donít have that problem as badly, and have an easier time getting out of dodge with their superior speed while using Step of the Wind.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2019-12-05 at 06:31 PM.

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