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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    DBZ moons aren't reality moons though. For instance they have atmospheres that can sustain gangster rabbits, and only require as much effort to destroy as a mountain.
    I dunno that doesn't prove anything, monster carrot already has the random ability to turn people into carrots, why not be able to breath in space as well?

    yeah but said mountain is a magical mountain made fiery by a wizard, we don't know if its as weak as a regular mountain.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I'm not even sure Vegeta can blow up a planet at that power level. The lowest we ever see do it is Frieza at first form, which is 200k+. Only over 10 times as strong.

    I know he says he can, but we never see if that is true.
    Vegeta could blow up the Earth. He outright claimed he would do it once he couldnt Beat Goku with Kaioken 3, and he used his Galick Gun from the air toward the ground.

    Goku countered with Kamehameha, but they were evenly matched. Only when Goku went Kaioken 4 did he saved the earth.

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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I dunno that doesn't prove anything, monster carrot already has the random ability to turn people into carrots, why not be able to breath in space as well?

    yeah but said mountain is a magical mountain made fiery by a wizard, we don't know if its as weak as a regular mountain.
    Imean, if we're calling mountains "weak," how strong is a planet really?
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Vegeta could blow up the Earth. He outright claimed he would do it once he couldnt Beat Goku with Kaioken 3, and he used his Galick Gun from the air toward the ground.

    Goku countered with Kamehameha, but they were evenly matched. Only when Goku went Kaioken 4 did he saved the earth.
    That is what I just said? We never see one blown up until Frieza, but Vegeta (unreliable narrator) claims he can while in a fit of rage.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    That is what I just said? We never see one blown up until Frieza, but Vegeta (unreliable narrator) claims he can while in a fit of rage.
    I'd say Vegeta knows if he can blow up a planet or not.

    Freeza could do it casually, that's all.

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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Imean, if we're calling mountains "weak," how strong is a planet really?
    Really strong, given that Roshi was one of the only few people who can wield ki at all on Earth at all at the time.

    like, you must understand. Master shen and Roshi were the only two humans who could use ki before people like Goku, Krillin and Tien and such came along to learn under them. before the series started, there maybe three or four people who knew ki was even a THING. Dragonball wasn't like the modern shonen anime where such powers are taught everywhere, ki is mostly unknown on Earth.

    and the wider universe, isn't much better. sure there is Freeza and the Namekians, but the Namekians are isolated to one planet, Freeza got his power through pure talent and no training, and the freeza force seems to be mostly made up of thugs who don't really learn techniques they just had natural advantages and willingness to kill others. the Saiyans are the only race mentioned that Freeza wiped out because he/Beerus saw them as a threat, which implies that races who are actually good at using ki on a wide scale are actually pretty rare.
    this is reinforced by Jaco, who doesn't even use basic ki blasts he uses a laser gun instead, further implying that the Galactic Patrol doesn't really have a lot of knowledge of ki either, despite knowing that freeza was a thing.

    and no one really filled the power void after Freeza died, so its not as if Freeza had any ki-using competitors. Buu was this singular monstrosity from time immemorial. while the androids were all things made by Gero in a cave and never made it into mass production.

    and in the newest Broly movie during the flashback segment, there are saiyans who use freaking GUNS as if those things are effective at all so its implied that not even all saiyans are warriors like vegeta or goku.

    ki is actually pretty freaking rare apparently.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Really strong, given that Roshi was one of the only few people who can wield ki at all on Earth at all at the time.

    like, you must understand. Master shen and Roshi were the only two humans who could use ki before people like Goku, Krillin and Tien and such came along to learn under them. before the series started, there maybe three or four people who knew ki was even a THING. Dragonball wasn't like the modern shonen anime where such powers are taught everywhere, ki is mostly unknown on Earth.
    Okay, no, that's not right at all.

    There are certainly a lot of people who can use ki on the Earth, as it's an eastern mystical art. Most ki users aren't strong enough to use it directly as a weapon, but many people in the Dragon Ball world are definitely aware of ki or chakras or whatever. There is no way that Roshi and Shen and their students are the only people on Earth who have these powers. There are many examples in the original DB tournament arcs.

    Even Mister Satan probably utilizes a small amount of ki in his martial arts, or he wouldn't have been able to win the one World Martial Arts Tournament that the main characters didn't go to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    and the wider universe, isn't much better. sure there is Freeza and the Namekians, but the Namekians are isolated to one planet, Freeza got his power through pure talent and no training, and the freeza force seems to be mostly made up of thugs who don't really learn techniques they just had natural advantages and willingness to kill others. the Saiyans are the only race mentioned that Freeza wiped out because he/Beerus saw them as a threat, which implies that races who are actually good at using ki on a wide scale are actually pretty rare.
    this is reinforced by Jaco, who doesn't even use basic ki blasts he uses a laser gun instead, further implying that the Galactic Patrol doesn't really have a lot of knowledge of ki either, despite knowing that freeza was a thing.
    There are a lot of planets where people had some powers or special techniques. The Yardrats' instant transmission is based entirely on sensing ki, for example. A lot of magical powers that certain characters possessed are just different ways of manipulating ki, because ki is just energy. Dende's healing ability is based on ki. Those fish guys who were psychic (from the Bardock special) probably couldn't see the future without ki. Baba's fortune telling and other powers are probably fueled by the same mystical energy as ki powers. A lot of the physical martial arts moves that people do in Dragon Ball are subtly enhanced by ki. Many of Freeza's henchmen (except for the REALLY low level ones) used ki-based attacks, and they were from many different planets. There's no evidence to say that they didn't train and learn techniques just because Freeza himself didn't.

    And Freeza didn't kill the Saiyans because he was afraid of their ki. He had more ki then all of them combined (at the time). He didn't like their attitude and the fact that they believed in a legendary super warrior who was supposedly, and as it turned out, factually, able to challenge Freeza himself. He only destroyed their planet so that they wouldn't be even more annoying later on.

    As for Jaco and the Galactic Patrol agents, he's entirely a joke character and there's neither any reason to think that Jaco is representative of the power level of an average Galactic Patrol agent, or that the Galactic Patrol itself isn't also a joke. They don't prove anything.



    At the end of the day, Dragon Ball is the story of exceptional people doing exceptional things. By nature, it shows a collection of the best and strongest people in the world/galaxy/multiverse. That doesn't mean that there aren't any other people with similar (albeit lesser) abilities in the world, just that they aren't the focus of the story.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Okay, no, that's not right at all.

    There are certainly a lot of people who can use ki on the Earth, as it's an eastern mystical art. Most ki users aren't strong enough to use it directly as a weapon, but many people in the Dragon Ball world are definitely aware of ki or chakras or whatever. There is no way that Roshi and Shen and their students are the only people on Earth who have these powers. There are many examples in the original DB tournament arcs.

    Even Mister Satan probably utilizes a small amount of ki in his martial arts, or he wouldn't have been able to win the one World Martial Arts Tournament that the main characters didn't go to.
    Are you sure about that?

    original DB fighters that have no connection Shen or Roshi, first tournament:
    Bacterian- all he has is a really bad smell
    Ranfan- a female fighter who used her....feminine attributes to try and win
    Nam- some guy from the desert wanting to get water for his village
    Giran- is a fat pterodactyl man who spits a strange gum for his mouth

    none of these are consistent with ki abilities

    Second tournament:
    man-wolf: is just a guy who cannot turn back into a man because Jackie chun destroyed the moon last tournament and wants revenge (huh, the moon being destroyed DID have consequences, wow)
    Pamput: is just a kickboxer who is arrogant

    Third tournament:
    no one except two if you count the namekians

    There are a lot of planets where people had some powers or special techniques. The Yardrats' instant transmission is based entirely on sensing ki, for example. A lot of magical powers that certain characters possessed are just different ways of manipulating ki, because ki is just energy. Dende's healing ability is based on ki. Those fish guys who were psychic (from the Bardock special) probably couldn't see the future without ki. Baba's fortune telling and other powers are probably fueled by the same mystical energy as ki powers. A lot of the physical martial arts moves that people do in Dragon Ball are subtly enhanced by ki. Many of Freeza's henchmen (except for the REALLY low level ones) used ki-based attacks, and they were from many different planets. There's no evidence to say that they didn't train and learn techniques just because Freeza himself didn't.

    And Freeza didn't kill the Saiyans because he was afraid of their ki. He had more ki then all of them combined (at the time). He didn't like their attitude and the fact that they believed in a legendary super warrior who was supposedly, and as it turned out, factually, able to challenge Freeza himself. He only destroyed their planet so that they wouldn't be even more annoying later on.

    As for Jaco and the Galactic Patrol agents, he's entirely a joke character and there's neither any reason to think that Jaco is representative of the power level of an average Galactic Patrol agent, or that the Galactic Patrol itself isn't also a joke. They don't prove anything.
    sorry, the old Bardock special isn't canon, unfortunately, never was. especially not with the new Broly movie out.

    mm, no sorry, your assumptions about being "subtly enhanced" holds no water. its not explicitly said they're using ki and if they were, Goku would be able to sense it.

    and Namekians are isolated and how many namekians actually fought back against Freeza? oh right about.....four.

    and how many people are within said freeza force? look at how varied each grunt is, there can't be anything more than say..... 30-50 minions every time we see them at most, out of what, entire galaxies of potential ki users? shouldn't there be far more than that? space is big, mind-bogglingly so. and none of them were formally trained in ki combat, if freeza can ki blast and fly without training, what makes you think others can't?

    speaking of which, lets take a look at the Ginyu Force, his most elite members, their backstories:
    Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Burter's special powers originated during his childhood: Burter's mother was very strict, making him do all the household chores and slapping him if he was late preparing dinner; because of this, he became the fastest in the universe.[1] He soon became a member of Frieza's elite mercenary platoon, the Ginyu Force: Burter is the self-proclaimed "Azure Typhoon" (or "Blue Hurricane", in the Dragon Ball manga and video games), and fancies himself as the fastest being in the universe.
    Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Recoome's special powers originated during his childhood: Recoome practiced dance, which is how he got his agility and various battle poses.[1] Recoome was later recruited in the Ginyu Force.
    Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Guldo's special powers originated during his childhood. He realized he had psychic powers as a child, and caused mischief like lifting up girls' skirts and stealing whatever toys he wanted.[3]
    At some point Guldo became a part of the Galactic Frieza Army. Guldo was the last member to join the Ginyu Force, in his membership test he had to fight against Burter, Jeice, Recoome, and Ginyu to see if he was worthy to join. He fought alongside a partner (as new recruits were allowed one helper) and managed to prove his worth, thus being given membership
    Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Jeice's special powers originated during his childhood: Jeice was a pitcher in the Galactic Little League, and it is there that he developed the Crusher Ball as his special technique.[2]
    Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Ginyu's special powers originated during his childhood. When Ginyu first learned of his Body Change ability, he swapped bodies with the richest kid in his class, which made him popular with girls but also stupid, and he soon realized that men should compete in terms of strength rather than money.[5] According to this, Ginyu's purple horned body is his original.[5]
    none these people were formally trained in ki, they just got lucky powers or skills that they discovered early and then got recruited into the force because of them. these are FREEZA'S FINEST MEN. imagine the standards for his GRUNTS are. and especially since they all use scouters. every formally trained ki user can sense ki, they are using it, but they don't know what is didn't make the effort to learn. they're thugs who got good out of random happenstance. and unfortunately, random happenstance does not beat years of knowledge, training and discipline.

    its not as if you've see any of their planets, and if there were more like them surely Freeza would have more than FIVE GUYS in his force? seems more like they are the few rare people who just somehow figures out how to do ki in a world where they don't know what it is. EDIT: and furthermore! every time the heroes power up, what do the freeza force members do? act surprised. as if they don't think that power levels can be RAISED or HIDDEN, like an earth fighter knows they can. as if power levels to them are set in stone in their eyes. and since people can just be born with arbitrarily high power levels out of nowhere without training well....its not impossible that Freeza's entire force is just made up of talented thugs who got born lucky and Freeza found them while traveling through space searching for said thugs to help conquer stuff, assuming all the power was set in stone and that he was a unique being who could hide it by transforming to be weaker. which given the "might makes right" philosophy that DB protagonists often use....isn't implausible.

    as for the Yardrats, we don't see them or what they're capable of. for all we know, only a single old yardrat master knows instant transmission and teaches it to Goku simply because he needs someone to pass on the technique. which is a common martial arts trope.

    At the end of the day, Dragon Ball is the story of exceptional people doing exceptional things. By nature, it shows a collection of the best and strongest people in the world/galaxy/multiverse. That doesn't mean that there aren't any other people with similar (albeit lesser) abilities in the world, just that they aren't the focus of the story.
    In the sense that its about the people who can wield ki at all, yes. I mean from what Zamasu implies in his reactions to Goku, he is surprised that mortals are wielding ki in the first place. his universe, universe 10, is filled with fighters who don't even fire a single ki blast. that doesn't really point mortals wielding ki being a common thing in the least.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2019-12-10 at 02:10 AM.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Even Mister Satan probably utilizes a small amount of ki in his martial arts, or he wouldn't have been able to win the one World Martial Arts Tournament that the main characters didn't go to.
    [citation needed]
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [citation needed]
    Seconded

    We are talking about external manifestation of Ki, not merely the standard internalized Ki used by martial artists.

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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Actually, going by how we can see Great Saiyaman Gohan training Videl, and knowing that Videl was already extensively trained by Hercule himself, we can see that she has no idea of the concept of ki or how to use it until Gohan shows her. The logical implication is that Hercule can absolutely not use ki.

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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Or simply that he, and people similar to him, have no active understanding of Ki, and just use it instinctually to a certain Level to strengthen themselves.

    SO yeah, in my opinion active and especially external Ki use is VERY rare. Using miniscule to small amounts purtel on reflex, not so much.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Or simply that he, and people similar to him, have no active understanding of Ki, and just use it instinctually to a certain Level to strengthen themselves.

    SO yeah, in my opinion active and especially external Ki use is VERY rare. Using miniscule to small amounts purtel on reflex, not so much.
    But there's no evidence that unconscious, reflexive use of miniscule amounts of ki exists in Hercule (or anyone else for that matter). It's like saying that Hercule is one-64th Saiyan, and that's why he was the champion and so strong. Sure, it's theoretically possible, but there's no indication that it's true, just like there's no indication that he uses miniscule amounts of ki reflexively.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    We are talking about external manifestation of Ki, not merely the standard internalized Ki used by martial artists.
    When did we limit it only external blasty uses of ki? I'm talking about ki in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Or simply that he, and people similar to him, have no active understanding of Ki, and just use it instinctually to a certain Level to strengthen themselves.

    SO yeah, in my opinion active and especially external Ki use is VERY rare. Using miniscule to small amounts purtel on reflex, not so much.
    ^ Yeah, this.

    Ki is like a spiritual/life energy. Literally everyone has it, albeit in small amounts. It's kind of like The Force in that way. Very few people learn to manipulate it, but any extraordinary feats that people accomplish are in part because of ki except for those that are explicitly magical (and those are even a lot more rare).

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    But there's no evidence that unconscious, reflexive use of miniscule amounts of ki exists in Hercule (or anyone else for that matter). It's like saying that Hercule is one-64th Saiyan, and that's why he was the champion and so strong. Sure, it's theoretically possible, but there's no indication that it's true, just like there's no indication that he uses miniscule amounts of ki reflexively.
    I said he "probably" did. Satan is only weak in comparison to the main cast. He still won a World Martial Arts Tournament that the super exceptional people were too busy to go to.



    Also, Lord Raziere? You don't get to post a bunch of non-canon quotes about each individual member of the Ginyu Force's childhoods in the same post that you tell me that the fish people from the Bardock Special aren't canon.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    When did we limit it only external blasty uses of ki? I'm talking about ki in general.
    Because one require actual knowledge and willing intent in the manifestation of the Ki, the other is merely a spontaneous consequence of having harmonized your physical and spiritual self.

    I don't have any issue believing Satan was probably using unconsciously Ki, as I do accept he was probably one of the top 10 fighting humans in existence. (After Krilin, Tsenshinshen, Chaozu, Tao Pai Pai, The Turtle Master and the Crane Master. It's never established how strong the later three are compared to peak Satan).

    Edit Goddamnit I forgot Yamcha. He was probably between Tsenshinen and Chaozu
    Last edited by Cikomyr; 2019-12-10 at 10:02 PM.

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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    I said he "probably" did. Satan is only weak in comparison to the main cast. He still won a World Martial Arts Tournament that the super exceptional people were too busy to go to.
    ... And? Someone is going to win that tournament. If, for whatever reason, only a bunch of 100lb 20-year-old IT nerds fought it that tournament, would that mean the winner probably was able to use ki? "He, as a regular human, won a tournament over other regular humans" has no more bearing on him using ki than that Bulma's father was able to subconsciously use ki because he invented tons of things. It's an arbitrary standard with zero evidence.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Also, Lord Raziere? You don't get to post a bunch of non-canon quotes about each individual member of the Ginyu Force's childhoods in the same post that you tell me that the fish people from the Bardock Special aren't canon.
    So they are, oh well I was wrong, boohoo. but y'know, Kanassans are still not canon dude. I love the Bardock Special, its better than the canon Bardock, but.....sorry its just not canon.

    the fact remains that given the way Ki works, Freeza doesn't need a huge army and he doesn't really have one. To keep a planet in line he just needs one guy to be there to keep the threat of total annihiliation hanging over their heads through planet-busting power, and only needs to send one or two guys to commit a planetary genocide. which is incredibly efficient for him given that any civilization at even Earth's level would be populated in the billions. ki users don't need to be common, not even on a universe scale, because you just need one person out of billions to be able to use it at all to satisfy "exceptional". someone as weak as raditz is exceptional because he legit outpowers everything on Earth at the time when we had an entire series setting them up to be the strongest people on Earth bar none.

    this isn't the modern shonen universe where the difference is "has magic powers but is a mook because the other guy has a special hax variant" its the first universe where the difference is "I have these powers at all when most don't.".

    ki is what is called in the writing business, soft magic. its development depends more on emotions, character development and the characters themselves than the rules of the world. getting angry causes power ups? an attack that somehow becomes holy just because it gathers energy from energy donated from everyone? hallmarks of soft magic. a lot of what it does is just help tell the story than be used in a logical manner. soft magic thus tends to not be systemized because it can't. its principles are largely unexplained in story.

    but here is what Toriyama has said:
    Composition
    According to Akira Toriyama, ki is made up of three parts:

    Genki (元気 lit. "Vigor")
    Yūki (勇気 lit. "Courage")
    Shōki (正気 lit. "Mind")
    The first and third of these are obvious referrals to strength of mind and body. Yuki however refers to courage, which is a far less measurable trait than the other two. it suggests that cowards are inherently weaker in ki usage than people who are brave as they don't have enough courage to form it well, which explains partly why Yamcha and Krillin's strength doesn't really keep up. and suggests that most people simply are less proficient wielding ki because they're normal people. most normal people simply aren't courageous enough to fight dangerous ki battles and just want to live stable happy lives. so its entirely possible that most are not courageous enough to wield ki or learn to how, and that a ki-user can sense if someone has enough courage to be fit to be taught at all. this is consistent with transformations unlocked through anger or trauma, cowards like Babidi being easily defeated, Gohan's power spiking up and down constantly when he was younger and so on.

    and if Ginyu's backstory is open- well, if he just constantly switch to stronger bodies every time well, why train? just switch with whoever has a higher PL than you. and an organization like the Freeza Force doesn't really need constant training- its all about bullying or killing weaker people for money, and thus don't really need to reach their full potential when what they have does just fine for what they do. if even Raditz can confidently wipe out a planet without opposition, that does not point to ki use being common or known. and why would ki-users want to make it more common? each one is a literal god who wipe out an entire civilization by a normal man's measure, we have at least one person WEAKER than Raditz being called GOD as in, the GOD of all the world, and Raditz is stronger than that. a bully doesn't want to spread that around, they want to keep that to themselves so everyone bows down to the man in charge forever.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Chaotic Neutral, even when he's Good(Or Lawful) it's out of selfish reasons. He has simply become better at finding reasons to be Good rather than Evil. Probably from Goku's influence.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    We see Mr.Satan perform some outright super-human feats... Including dodging bullets and easily defeating an opponent who is visibly much more muscular than him... So I think it's far more likely that he uses ki without knowing it.

    It's just special ki techniques that are rare (shooting beams, flying, teleport, etc). General physical enhancement seems to be practiced by most, if not all, serious martial artists (albeit unkowingly).

    Hell! Even the weakest Freeza soldiers are capable of flight! You know those guys that use laser guns instead of ki blasts? They are shown flying without aid all the time!

    Also: Vegeta could definitely destroy Earth with that Galick Gun attack... Just not as non-challantly as Freeza could.

    Honestly most "He's an unreliable narrator! We don't know if that's actually true!" arguments are silly when it comes to DBZ. Toriyama just isn't that subtle a writer. That and the absurd power-scaling of the series (not to mention the usual "writers have no sense of scale and aren't very good at math" issue) makes character statements such as "he can destroy the solar system!" most likely true.

    It's probably more accurate to take that kind of statement at face value than to use Death Battle's pseudo-scientific skepticism.

    - - -

    On Vegeta:

    He starts of as either CE or NE... At some point during the Cell saga, he starts slowly progressing towards TN. At the start of Majin Buu saga he's so deeply TN / NG that he has an identity crisis when he realizes it and falls back into Evil for a moment.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-12-12 at 07:29 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    We see Mr.Satan perform some outright super-human feats... Including dodging bullets and easily defeating an opponent who is visibly much more muscular than him... So I think it's far more likely that he uses ki without knowing it.

    It's just special ki techniques that are rare (shooting beams, flying, teleport, etc). General physical enhancement seems to be practiced by most, if not all, serious martial artists (albeit unkowingly).
    Don't forget that Mr. Satan took a direct hit from perfect Cell, was sent crashing against a stone pillar and walked away with just a few light bruises when a normal human would've been reduced to a bunch of bloodied broken chunks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Hell! Even the weakest Freeza soldiers are capable of flight! You know those guys that use laser guns instead of ki blasts? They are shown flying without aid all the time!
    To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post

    Honestly most "He's an unreliable narrator! We don't know if that's actually true!" arguments are silly when it comes to DBZ. Toriyama just isn't that subtle a writer. That and the absurd power-scaling of the series (not to mention the usual "writers have no sense of scale and aren't very good at math" issue) makes character statements such as "he can destroy the solar system!" most likely true.

    It's probably more accurate to take that kind of statement at face value than to use Death Battle's pseudo-scientific skepticism.
    oh I fully agree with this.

    but things still point to Ki being incredibly rare. just like how magic is rare, or how Majin buu is the only one of his kind, or how Freeza is actually a mutant, or how Krillin doesn't have a nose, or androids randomly invented by a guy in a cave. Dragonball is just one of those worlds that are closer to a superhero universe with a bunch of diverse rare power sources thrown into a mixer, than a more consistent fantasy universe like Naruto or something.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Don't forget that Mr. Satan took a direct hit from perfect Cell, was sent crashing against a stone pillar and walked away with just a few light bruises when a normal human would've been reduced to a bunch of bloodied broken chunks.



    To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.
    Maybe the laser guns are some sort of Ki-focusing and intensifying tools, a la Piccolo's beam, or Krilin's cutting disks?

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    We see Mr.Satan perform some outright super-human feats... Including dodging bullets and easily defeating an opponent who is visibly much more muscular than him... So I think it's far more likely that he uses ki without knowing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Don't forget that Mr. Satan took a direct hit from perfect Cell, was sent crashing against a stone pillar and walked away with just a few light bruises when a normal human would've been reduced to a bunch of bloodied broken chunks.
    Fair points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Hell! Even the weakest Freeza soldiers are capable of flight! You know those guys that use laser guns instead of ki blasts? They are shown flying without aid all the time!
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.
    Also, Videl was able to fly but unable to shoot ki blasts, so flight seems to be much easier.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, Videl was able to fly but unable to shoot ki blasts, so flight seems to be much easier.
    On the contrary, Videl actually had to learn how to do ki balls of energy before she could learn ki flight, ki master Gohan himself confirms it. She just never uses ki blasting in combat because reasons (and in some games she does get nuking).

    If anything, all the Z fighters learned blasting before flight, and master "shoot the moon" Roshi could never figure out the flying bit.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-12-13 at 07:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    On the contrary, Videl actually had to learn how to do ki balls of energy before she could learn ki flight, ki master Gohan himself confirms it. She just never uses ki blasting in combat because reasons (and in some games she does get nuking).
    Well dang, I forgot about that. Though her ki blasts were poor and her flight was good, which is odd.

    What this means is I should clearly re-watch the best parts of DBZ again. Which is to say, the Great Saiyaman Saga!
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.
    Ignoring the fact that that scene was just a really crappy way of showing Goku's overconfidence and complety inconsistent with everything from DBZ... It's implied that Sorbet's laser was some sort od one-shot special weapon, rather than the usual laser gun every Freeza grunt uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    On the contrary, Videl actually had to learn how to do ki balls of energy before she could learn ki flight, ki master Gohan himself confirms it. She just never uses ki blasting in combat because reasons (and in some games she does get nuking).
    Probably because she doesn't have much of it... There is no point in shooting laser beams if they deal little to no damage and using them once or twice leaves you exhausted (probably the same reasons Freeza soldiers use guns).

    Also... She doesn't fight much, so Toriyama probably forgot about it.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-12-13 at 02:56 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    complety inconsistent with everything from DBZ
    Imean, to be fair here, vast amounts of DBZ are completely inconsistent with everything from Dragon Ball.

    Also, to be fair, I think it should be clear at this point that my enjoyment in the Dragonball franchise is highest at the most ridiculous parts.
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    Default Re: What's Vegeta Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Starting:
    Chaotic Evil

    Cell Saga:
    Chaotic Neutral bordering on evil

    Buu Saga:
    Chaotic Evil/chaotic neutral

    Super:
    Chaotic Good slowly turning to Lawful Good by the end of the Tournament of Power.
    that would explain why he is always slightly behind Goku in terms of power. He gets an exp. penalty for changing alignment.

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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    that would explain why he is always slightly behind Goku in terms of power. He gets an exp. penalty for changing alignment.
    This is the new canon explanation.

    I actually don't think ToP makes him lawful. He rejects the whole concept, hates the divine hierarchy and seeks to subvert the spoke intent of the tournament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Ignoring the fact that that scene was just a really crappy way of showing Goku's overconfidence and complety inconsistent with everything from DBZ... It's implied that Sorbet's laser was some sort od one-shot special weapon, rather than the usual laser gun every Freeza grunt uses.
    I recall that the implication that it was a perfectly normal laser gun. It wouldn't be Goku being overconfident if it was some one-off super prototype much stronger than anything before. And again even the latest BBEG has to dodge laser guns so it's not an isolated event.

    Plus consider that Freeza's army is crazy advanced in terms of technology, being able to mass-produce FTL ships that are the same size as the pilot. So it's actually expected that their mass-produced laser guns would pack a real punch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Probably because she doesn't have much of it... There is no point in shooting laser beams if they deal little to no damage and using them once or twice leaves you exhausted (probably the same reasons Freeza soldiers use guns).

    Also... She doesn't fight much, so Toriyama probably forgot about it.
    The way I see it, she just likes it close and personal. Plus she sees herself as a heroine of justice and ki blasts have a significantly higher risk of collateral damage so she'll rather just rely on punches and kicks than start ki blasting and end up razing the block.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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