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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Feb 2018

    Default Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    I love Guidance, it's easily one of top cantrips in the game. A +1d4 to any ability check (including Initiative & Dispel Magic) is amazing for both the Cleric and the Druid.

    At tier 1, the Druid has little to concentrate on outside combat, so taking Guidance is effectively a +1d4 to every ability check. Plus, his Scimitar and Sling do similar damage to combat cantrips anyway. Taking Guidance is groovy.

    At tier 3 & 4, the Druid doesn't have much use for combat cantrips anymore, plus he gets 4 cantrips. Taking Guidance is a good idea.

    At tier 2, I wonder if Guidance is the best pick. The Druid only has a meager 3 cantrips. In dungeons and in combat, he is concentrating on Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings most of the time now, so he can't use Guidance. At the same time, the Druid is lacking good non-concentration spells, so he is often spending his action on combat cantrips. His Scimitar and Sling just don't cut it anymore. Seems to me an extra combat cantrip would be extremely valuable.

    Out of combat, Guidance loses it's luster too, with the Druid being to cast Pass Without Trace and Enhance Ability in most situations requiring it.

    For Druids starts out at Tier 2, perhaps it would be a good idea to take 3 combat cantrips and wait level 10 before taking Guidance.

    Three combat cantrips isn't that much too, with so many options of good value available to the Druid:

    - Frostbite: has a range of 60 feet, basically your only long-range option.
    - Thorn Whip: has the rare ability to pull a target up to 10 feet. Excellent to pull enemies into traps, out of cover, away from the Wizard, etc.
    - Thunderclap: the most damaging cantrip when facing 2 enemies, and even more damaging when facing 3 or more.
    - Primal Savagery: the best option to use in melee, except maybe for Thunderclap if facing multiple opponents.

    I find it painful to limit myself to 3 of these combat cantrips, let alone only 2.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2019-12-01 at 07:31 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    May 2019

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    Non-Moon Druids don't really have the HP or AC (if someone's enforcing the no-metal-armor thing) to stand up well in a melee fight, meaning that melee-only cantrips lose a lot of value. Always concentrating on a spell means you rarely want to be putting yourself in danger unnecessarily if you don't have high Con and ideally save proficiency. Moon Druids have little use for combat cantrips, and can usually get by with just one, possibly none.

    While Frostbite and Thorn Whip are not super damaging, both work just fine in melee (since they're a save cantrip and a melee spell attack respectively) and have great utility in combat. Primal Savagery doesn't really offer anything other than damage, for which other classes have equal/superior options.

    Can you get by without Guidance? Absolutely. Overrated? Unless someone's telling you Druids are useless without it, it's not being overrated by much.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    May 2019

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    As primarily a caster player, 3 cantrips for nothing but combat seems like a lot to be honest. I generally want as much utility as possible out of cantrips because they're at will and you can blow your slots in combat, one ranged and one melee cantrips is really enough but depending what else you want to take just one ranged option is enough to comfortably get by. This is also Tier 2 Druids, you shouldn't really be struggling for slots in combat that often to need so much at will combat magic.

    Guidance itself is great from the beginning and will always be great, even if you only cast it when you really need to it can bring very difficult (or even impossible) checks into grasp, bounded accuracy really makes it a top tier cantrip regardless what tier you're in or really whatever class you're playing. If you don't have it, you want it or you want it cast on you.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Feb 2018

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    Non-Moon Druids don't really have the HP or AC (if someone's enforcing the no-metal-armor thing) to stand up well in a melee fight, meaning that melee-only cantrips lose a lot of value.
    Agreed - but what about Goblin Druids? They use Thunderclap or Primal Savagery, then retreat using Disengage as a bonus action. Seems pretty potent to me.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Jan 2013

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    I wonder whether Guidance is overrated generally. I played a Tome Warlock and took it, and it hasn't been used even once - though I admit that was only one session, so far.

    It seems like it's not often that you get one minute of warning in advance of making an ability check or save, unless you're in combat, when other things demand your action (and even Help would be superior).

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    I'd say guidance is overrated for druids of tiers 2,3 and 4 for a different reason. Namely, pass without trace. Most of the time in those tiers it's probably better to be concentrating on Pass Without Trace, and Guidance breaks that.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    Goblin druids are but one combo. There's a lot more races.

    Three combat cantrips seems... rather overkill, to say the least. You can have a couple to play around with damage types and possible rider effects, but three? A melee cantrip isn't needed; a druid in melee will be wildshaped, or be trying to get out of melee. Likewise, AoE cantrips aren't that great. They have low damage dice, and the best situation calling for their usage is being surrounded or facing a solid frontline, in which case you're again either wildshaped or you're trying to get out of there.

    Frostbite and Thorn Whip have enough damage and in-combat utility to fully cover a druid's combat cantrip bases. Guidance might not be always available, but you won't be concentrating all the time even in a combat day, and there's bound to be days when combat plays little or no part in the events, unless you're purely dungeon crawling or are a bloodthirsty murderer. It's always nice having it.

    So overrated? No, nobody thinks that without Guidance a druid will be significantly gimped. But it's still a good choice at any tier.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Feb 2018

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I wonder whether Guidance is overrated generally. I played a Tome Warlock and took it, and it hasn't been used even once - though I admit that was only one session, so far.

    It seems like it's not often that you get one minute of warning in advance of making an ability check or save, unless you're in combat, when other things demand your action (and even Help would be superior).
    At low level, it is awesome.

    I cast it on myself every time a door is about to be opened, to get a +1d4 to initiative in case of combat.

    It can also be cast before examining an item (helps with arcana / history checks), before searching (Perception), before using stealth, before negotiating with a NPC, before handling an animal, before attempt a feat of dexterity or strength, etc.

    In most cases, it's clear that a check might be expected, and you can typically complete the activity within 60 seconds.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2019-12-03 at 06:15 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Jan 2013

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Merudo View Post
    At low level, it is awesome.

    I cast it on myself every time a door is about to be opened, to get a +1d4 to initiative in case of combat.

    It can also be cast before examining an item (helps with arcana / history checks), before searching (Perception), before using stealth, before negotiating with a NPC, before handling an animal, before attempt a feat of dexterity or strength, etc.

    In most cases, it's clear that a check might be expected, and you can typically complete the activity within 60 seconds.
    I'm glad it works for you! In my games so far:

    It would be pretty rare for us to go door to door without enemies inside knowing we were there and coming to meet us, unless we are going stealthily, in which case the loud chanting from spellcasting might be counter-indicated.

    Many Intelligence checks about things you see are called for when you see them. Close examination is a different situation, that's right, but it's also likely to take longer than one minute.

    Perception for searching may well also take longer than one minute.

    Using Stealth is nearly always going to be a longer affair when chanting will alert enemies.

    Overt spellcasting in front of an NPC before negotiations are likely to cause complications - and negotiations nearly always take longer than one minute.

    Likewise handling an animal is likely to take longer than one minute.

    I'm not saying there are no situations it can be used. I'm saying it's way more limited than it looks.

    Sure, you can specify you are taking a break every minute to cast the spell again, but even where this doesn't cause complications it feels clunky and silly.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Yunru's Avatar

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    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    You mean you don't just keep recasting it?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Using Stealth is nearly always going to be a longer affair when chanting will alert enemies.
    You don't have to chant for a minute to concentrate on guidance. I am not sure what you are getting at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spell Description; basic rules
    Guidance
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: Touch
    Components: V, S
    Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
    You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    You seem to be overthinking it a lot more than any of the other dozen groups I have played with, especially with the 1 minute duration. The spell only states that up to the end of the 1 minute duration you can add the d4 to one ability check. It doesn't specify that the entire activity must also be completed within that minute.

    I'm AFB so can't check but as far as I remember no where in the rules does it specify at what point in a prolonged activity you make the ability check.

    We have always just had the simple rule of as long as it is announced before the dice are rolled then you can add the d4.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    May 2019

    Default Re: Guidance: overrated for Tier 2 Druids?

    Basically any task that would give you 6 seconds forewarning can benefit from Guidance, barring Stealth, for which Pass Without Trace is way better if you can spare the slots for it. Some obvious ones:

    (If out of combat)

    -Basically any Intelligence check (investigation, history, arcana, nature, religion), as well as survival.
    -Most social checks depending on how your DM treats spellcasting in public.
    -The vast majority of Tool checks
    -Athletics and Acrobatics checks to get over/around terrain features.
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