Corporate WW IC

[The Outsider]

Here's my thoughts on this whole mess:
1. I know for a fact that Unavenger is a wolf, as they've stolen my claim. I wish that I could say something to prove this, but no one has used an ability on me thus far.
2. Unavenger voted for AvatarVecna. This leads me to believe that AV is the real contingency planner, and that Gac3 is a wolf.
3. This also leads me to believe that YoshiCline is a wolf, as they exhibited similar behavior partway thorough AV's gambit (voting AV, that is) and are also one of the duplicate claims.
4. Finally, Caerulea moved their vote off of Gac3 and onto JeenLeen after the claims were revealed, a move that seems to me to be calculated to appear Townish and get votes off of Gac. This leads me to believe that Caerulea is the final wolf, especially when combined with the fact that Gac3 tried to vote for JeenLeen earlier.

Regardless of my rampant speculation, I do believe that the best move for Town is to vote up Gac3. It should confirm this whole mess, and Xihirli is right: They haven't been playing like they have a vote after death. AV has.

[gac3]

Xihirli is right: They haven't been playing like they have a vote after death. AV has.

In the post game discussion (doesn't sound like there is much point in it now), I would like to have this explained to me.

[Grek]

4. Finally, Caerulea moved their vote off of Gac3 and onto JeenLeen after the claims were revealed, a move that seems to me to be calculated to appear Townish and get votes off of Gac. This leads me to believe that Caerulea is the final wolf, especially when combined with the fact that Gac3 tried to vote for JeenLeen earlier.

About this, Caerulea was also the one urging me not to claim and not to trust AV both in thread an in QT. They've (Hey Caerulea is 'they' the correct pronoun or do you have one you like better?) also expressed suspicion toward both you and Unavenger though, so I don't know what to think of that.

[kgato503]

General reminder to cross out old votes (as I was reading through the day, I noticed a few people haven't been doing this).

@ AvatarVecna: Gee, thanks for outing me .

@ Everyone else: Okay, freely admitting to being confused.

From the talks, it sounds like gac3 is a wolf? At the moment, I don't want to vote for the person who actually wants to die, and who outed me (call me petty, if you wish).

[Elenna]

That's not gonna help you, Elenna. The Seer scried me last night.

Yeah, probably, but no harm in checking.

Also, I was going to wait to claim until after we knew the results of today's lynch and just let the networking happen overnight, but I guess we're going public with everyone's role now?
Plus I just really want to express my confusion, because I'm the Retaliator.

Possibility #1: One of Caerulea or JeenLeen is town and fake-claimed Retaliator to AV because they don't trust AV and/or think their real role is too important to be known.
Possibility #2: One of Caerulea or JeenLeen is town and claimed their real non-Retaliator role to AV, who lied on that list of roles in order to hide an important role or trick the wolves or something
Possibility #3: They're both wolves and claimed the same role in the hopes that when one of them was proven to be a wolf, the other would be assumed to be town
Possibility #4: That entire list of AVs is BS designed to do... something?
Possibility #5: AV is a lying wolf. I guess this is included in Possibility #4.

Certainty #1: I'm very confused by this series of events and should probably go to bed

- - - Updated - - -

Anyways, between Caerulea and JeenLeen, the latter feels more suspicious (if only because of that comment about whether anyone had been contacted by oblivion earlier today). But I'm inclined to vote for either gac or AV today just to get some more confirmation about whether this whole scheme is legit.

[JeenLeen]

So... assuming AV's chart is legitimate and not a wolfish ploy, we've got 3 pairs of dual-claims:
AV and gac3 (Contingency)
The Outsider and Unavenger (IT Worker)
me, Elenna, and Caerulea (Retaliator)
I implied this already to AV and maybe Caerulea via QuickTopics, so I'll withdraw my claim officially. I was lying to AV because I didn't trust her and thought that was a safe claim. I am not the retaliator.

Means likely AV or gac3 are wolves and The Outsider or Unavenger are wolves. Same for Elenna and Caerulea. Or at least one of each pair lied out of fear of AV being a wolf and thus weren't trusting her. But let's assume the chart is honestly representing what people said to AV: they can always change their claim publicly to remove duplication.

I don't like AV's ploy in that it is the idea I mentioned in the Night -- which has been deemed not likely to work with flat_footed dead -- except not everybody is revealing. That is kinda good in that the Accountant and SYSADMIN are hidden amongst a few positions, but it's bad in that the wolves have just a handful of targets.
This seems likely to help the wolves, but if she's a wolf, she's really outting herself and fellow wolves, so why do it? WIFOM and all... but makes me think she might be Town.

---

But the vote totals now are leaning towards AV or gac3. (I haven't counted who moved votes, so maybe it's almost all on gac3 now.) If one dies and is Town, the SYSADMIN kills the other. Good. If a wolf dies, we believe the other is the contingency planner.

Then repeat with the other duos.
I'm down for that.

I still find initiating this to be wolfish, so I'll stick with AV. But if she is Town, I hope the SYSADMIN kills gac3.
If AV is a wolf, I'm leaning that Caerulea is a wolf also. Something about how both were talking to me via QuickTopic.

[Caerulea]

Well, I am still up because I spent way to long practicing the entire nutcracker ballet before realizing we're only playing the march. :(
So now is a great time to respond. And then sleep.

4. Finally, Caerulea moved their vote off of Gac3 and onto JeenLeen after the claims were revealed, a move that seems to me to be calculated to appear Townish and get votes off of Gac. This leads me to believe that Caerulea is the final wolf, especially when combined with the fact that Gac3 tried to vote for JeenLeen earlier.

Actually, it was to pressure JeenLeen into revealing in private the reason he claimed my role. I wasn't really considering how it looked, but I thought it looked kinda wolfy. (Move out of the AV-gac3 race to avoid suspicion).

Hey Caerulea is 'they' the correct pronoun or do you have one you like better?

Use whatever pronoun fits your mental model of me. I don't really care.

Plus I just really want to express my confusion, because I'm the Retaliator.

Now see, I know you're lying. But hey, go ahead and lynch me if y'all think I'm the actual one. Maybe my kill-code will hit a wolf.

Possibility #1: One of Caerulea or JeenLeen is town and fake-claimed Retaliator to AV because they don't trust AV and/or think their real role is too important to be known.
Possibility #2: One of Caerulea or JeenLeen is town and claimed their real non-Retaliator role to AV, who lied on that list of roles in order to hide an important role or trick the wolves or something
Possibility #3: They're both wolves and claimed the same role in the hopes that when one of them was proven to be a wolf, the other would be assumed to be town
Possibility #4: That entire list of AVs is BS designed to do... something?
Possibility #5: AV is a lying wolf. I guess this is included in Possibility #4.

I'm pretty sure 4 and 5 aren't something that a group of wolves would agree to. But who knows? Maybe the wine was in front of us the whole time.
You forgot two possibilities:
- I claimed retaliator because I am the retaliator, and JeenLeen claimed their different town role, and AV put retaliator
or
- I claimed retaliator because I am the retaliator, and JeenLeen claimed retaliator because he is an important townie and doesn't trust AV.

Retaliator is an excellent role to claim because of its safety. Not sure why you think only one town possibly claimed it.

[JeenLeen]

I think arguing over who is the true Retaliator is kinda pointless. It's safest, and probably best for the town, to do the other duos first then worry about Retaliator.

I recommend the rest of the Town avoid making claims. In fact, such that I'll try to assume any non-claimers who claim are wolves. We should protect the Accountant and SYSADMIN, and revealing more will just lead to Town deaths (which I think might be AV's plan: sacrifice herself as a wolf so the wolves know who to target, then they can win via confusion as we kill the wrong member of each duo).

[Caerulea]

Well then, I didn't see that last post before posting. And also the one directly above this one. JeenLeen, stop Ninja'ing me.

So... assuming AV's chart is legitimate and not a wolfish ploy, we've got 3 pairs of dual-claims:
AV and gac3 (Contingency)
The Outsider and Unavenger (IT Worker)
me, Elenna, and Caerulea (Retaliator)
I implied this already to AV and maybe Caerulea via QuickTopics, so I'll withdraw my claim officially. I was lying to AV because I didn't trust her and thought that was a safe claim. I am not the retaliator.

Okay then. I'll vote again for gac3.

Same for Elenna and Caerulea. Or at least one of each pair lied out of fear of AV being a wolf and thus weren't trusting her. But let's assume the chart is honestly representing what people said to AV: they can always change their claim publicly to remove duplication.

I don't think Elenna's claim was serious. Looking at her post, it feels kind of tacked on. Additionally, all of her scenario's about who is the real retaliator do not include her.

I still find initiating this to be wolfish, so I'll stick with AV. But if she is Town, I hope the SYSADMIN kills gac3.
If AV is a wolf, I'm leaning that Caerulea is a wolf also. Something about how both were talking to me via QuickTopic.

I just contacted you because we were in contact last game. There was no coordinate between me and AV.

[Elenna]

Now see, I know you're lying. But hey, go ahead and lynch me if y'all think I'm the actual one. Maybe my kill-code will hit a wolf.

I'm pretty sure 4 and 5 aren't something that a group of wolves would agree to. But who knows? Maybe the wine was in front of us the whole time.
You forgot two possibilities:
- I claimed retaliator because I am the retaliator, and JeenLeen claimed their different town role, and AV put retaliator
or
- I claimed retaliator because I am the retaliator, and JeenLeen claimed retaliator because he is an important townie and doesn't trust AV.

Retaliator is an excellent role to claim because of its safety. Not sure why you think only one town possibly claimed it.

Well, I implied "more than one townie claimed it" in possibilities 1 and 2. The possibilities were intended to be from my perspective of knowing I'm town.
I suppose it's possible that all three of us are town and not a single wolf claimed retaliator despite it being a good role to fake-claim, but that seems unlikely.
Anyways, I agree with JeenLeen that there are better counterclaims to focus attention on.

[Xihirli]

So, Puppies. How many new QTs have popped up for you on your home page during this game?

[BasketOfPuppies]

That is not information that I am willing to give, because I don’t want any assumptions derived from my answer. I’ll reveal the number after the game is over.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, probably, but no harm in checking.

Also, I was going to wait to claim until after we knew the results of today's lynch and just let the networking happen overnight, but I guess we're going public with everyone's role now?
Plus I just really want to express my confusion, because I'm the Retaliator.

And this is why we claim~

Possibility #4: That entire list of AVs is BS designed to do... something?

The list most assuredly has BS, but everything is true as it's been reported to me. You don't exactly see a whole buncha people going "that's not what I told AV my role is!" (and the reason is probably cuz they suspect I've got proof - which I do, photographic evidence ).

JeenLeen was all for more public information on who was talking to oblivion, but now that town is openly talking roles where everybody can see and there's stuff to hunt down and things to check, they're arguing against claiming and checking. Meh, might mean nothing. Any argument dependent on me being a wolf is gonna kinda have to grapple with how I have no reason to give town all this info, especially where if I falsified anything I received people could try and counterclaim.

Of course, there's a really easy way to determine that: lynch/nightkill me, and you'll see that I was town the whole the time.

[Unavenger]

Oh good morning everyo... WAIT WHAT WHAT DID YOU DO.

Here's my thoughts on this whole mess:
1. I know for a fact that Unavenger is a wolf, as they've stolen my claim. I wish that I could say something to prove this, but no one has used an ability on me thus far.

Nor has anyone used an ability on me - which is why I knew that AV was lying through his teeth. That's the reason I demanded that he explain himself up-front.

I still think that we need to kill him. Either he's a wolf and he's playing us all like puppets, or he isn't and we can confirm that he has, at the very least, got a claim from everyone.

And if he dies a townie, you have one night only to explain why you claimed a role which should have known that AV was a lying liar, but didn't choose to explain this fact.

[AvatarVecna]

This is the second time somebody has cast shade on the accuracy of the reported roles, and I'm just thinking "if I'm claiming they claimed something else, why aren't the claimants speaking up"? This would be a really easy way to call me out pretty definitively as a liar, so where are they? Elenna thought it was a lie, but only because two people seemed to be claiming her role. Unavenger thinks the role claims I've presented aren't what I received, but this seems to be gut feeling since she's basically confirmed I reported her role accurately at least. kgato503 chewed me out for outing them publicly, so unless they're also a wolf and this is a giant ploy...but then, I know I'm not lying, and yet I've received no other claim to Experimental Coder, and it's not like that's a role you'd really want to not claim unless you absolutely had to, so where's the real claimant?

Could it be fake? Of course it could. Anything could. I know there's at least four people on that list who lied to me, but what I've presented is what was truly reported to me. If there is deception in that regard, it's not on my end. But if I was being deceptive, which for all you know I very well could be, where are the people calling it out? Every single person in this game, barring two, could stand up right now and say "that's not what I claimed to you, you're lying" and nobody could be sure if they were lying or I was.

So where are they? Why isn't that happening?

[Unavenger]

This is the second time somebody has cast shade on the accuracy of the reported roles

Unavenger thinks the role claims I've presented aren't what I received, but this seems to be gut feeling since she's basically confirmed I reported her role accurately at least.

They. And I'm not saying you're lying now. I am saying that you were lying before, and The Outsider should have known that if they really were the IT worker - the same way that I told you by DM that I was confused that I hadn't been told that I'd been given a scry if you'd used one on me, and the same way I was the first to wagon you in thread because, out of the six roles who knew you were lying, I was the only one with nothing to lose by saying that I knew.

And this is why we claim~

"Why do we claim the role, my children? My children? Why do we claim the role?"
"WHY DO WE CLAIM THE ROLE? WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE, THAT'S WHY WE CLAIM THE ROLE, WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE!"
"How does the role keep us free, my children? My children? How does the role keep us free?"
"HOW DOES THE ROLE KEEP US FREE? THE ROLE KEEPS OUT THE ENEMY, AND WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE, THAT'S WHY WE CLAIM THE ROLE, WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE!"
"Who do we call the enemy, my children? My children? Who do we call the enemy?
"WHO DO WE CALL THE ENEMY? THE ENEMY IS WOLFERY, AND THE ROLE KEEPS OUT THE ENEMY, AND WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE, THAT'S WHY WE CLAIM THE ROLE, WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE!"
"Because we live, and they will not, my children! My children! Because they want to kill us all!"
"BECAUSE WE LIVE, AND THEY WILL NOT, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KILL US ALL, THE ENEMY IS WOLFERY, AND THE ROLE KEEPS OUT THE ENEMY, AND WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE, THAT'S WHY WE CLAIM THE ROLE, WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE!"
"What do we have that they have not, my children? My children? What do we have that they should want?"
"WHAT DO WE HAVE THAT THEY SHOULD WANT? WE HAVE A ROLE TO CLAIM UPON, WE ARE TOWN AND THEY ARE NOT, AND OUR GAME IS NEVER DONE, MY CHILDREN, MY CHILDREN, AND THE WAR IS NEVER WON, THE ENEMY IS WOLFERY, AND THE ROLE KEEPS OUT THE ENEMY, AND WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE, THAT'S WHY WE CLAIM THE ROLE, WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE! WE CLAIM THE ROLE TO KEEP US FREE!"

[The Outsider]

You assume that I didn't use the exact same line of reasoning and logic because... why, exactly? Just because I took a moment to think matters through and make sure I took the right course of action ? That doesn't mean I'm dishonest, it just means I'm careful.

[Unavenger]

You assume that I didn't use the exact same line of reasoning and logic because... why, exactly? Just because I took a moment to think matters through and make sure I took the right course of action ? That doesn't mean I'm dishonest, it just means I'm careful.

Most people, upon getting told a lie that they know is a lie, won't just go "Oh okay this is fine guess I'll just think about it for a bit, hmm, hmhmhm!" It just comes across as a bit very suspicious, is all.

[JeenLeen]

To be clear: both Unavenger and The Outsider are both claiming IT Worker?

So, if whoever of gac3/AV we lynch today is the wolf, the SYSADMIN should probably kill one of them. Right?

[The Outsider]

Yeah, we both claim IT. And if I'm being completely honest, I wasn't exactly sure how my role worked and had to ask BoP if I received a message about gaining powers at the end of the night or at the beginning of the next. SYSADMIN is free to kill either of us, but I am the IT worker.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, we both claim IT. And if I'm being completely honest, I wasn't exactly sure how my role worked and had to ask BoP if I received a message about gaining powers at the end of the night or at the beginning of the next. SYSADMIN is free to kill either of us, but I am the IT worker.

And I can confirm that Unavenger was unsure about the exact same thing when I first claimed to them.

[YoshiCline]

As entertaining as this is, I just truly don't believe we have enough concrete evidence against anyone yet. There are suspects, certainly, but as of now it is too early to say.

[gac3]

Welp, I haven't actually counted the votes but I feel they were skewed towards me so I'm probably minutes from dead. I've been thinking hard about what I could say to help the rest of us moving forward. However I figure my best bet is to just thank AV for the lessons on playing the game I got from this session. My information gathering attempt did not go nearly as well as theirs did.


Next time I'll last to day 3. AV

[BasketOfPuppies]

This session of questioning was frantic and deep. Accusations were slung, alliances were formed, and votes were tallied. When the server's downtime hit, one user was ejected, their mission a failure.

gac3 was killed. They were the Virus Creator.

Did not vote (that I could find): flyinglemur (no matter their vote, gac3 was going to swing).

Day 2 ends now. Night 2 will end in ~48h. Please put any night actions you have in your QT.

[JeenLeen]

Here's my thoughts on this whole mess:
1. I know for a fact that Unavenger is a wolf, as they've stolen my claim. I wish that I could say something to prove this, but no one has used an ability on me thus far.
2. Unavenger voted for AvatarVecna. This leads me to believe that AV is the real contingency planner, and that Gac3 is a wolf.
3. This also leads me to believe that YoshiCline is a wolf, as they exhibited similar behavior partway thorough AV's gambit (voting AV, that is) and are also one of the duplicate claims.
4. Finally, Caerulea moved their vote off of Gac3 and onto JeenLeen after the claims were revealed, a move that seems to me to be calculated to appear Townish and get votes off of Gac. This leads me to believe that Caerulea is the final wolf, especially when combined with the fact that Gac3 tried to vote for JeenLeen earlier.

Based on this analysis, I think the SYSADMIN should kill Unavenger.
Of course, SYSADMIN is free to target who they wish, but I wanted to point this out as they examine things.

If the SYSADMIN kills Unavenger and Unavenger is Town, thus meaning The Outsider is wolf, I'll reveal my role.

[Elenna]

Based on this analysis, I think the SYSADMIN should kill Unavenger.
Of course, SYSADMIN is free to target who they wish, but I wanted to point this out as they examine things.

If the SYSADMIN kills Unavenger and Unavenger is Town, thus meaning The Outsider is wolf, I'll reveal my role.

I'd say the SYSADMIN shouldn't kill anyone tonight. Too much chance of hitting a townie and doing the wolves' job for them, and we don't need a wolf kill tonight to win. The longer the game goes on, the more chances the Accountant has to help us lynch the right people - especially because they now have a nice shortlist of people to check.

[The Outsider]

Personally, I think that a delay in killing will only harm the Town at this point. Eliminating Unavenger (or me if you so desire) will help us clear things up quickly. If I'm Town and Unavenger is a wolf, we kill a wolf. If I'm a wolf and Unavenger is the IT worker, you have me as an easy hang. Clarity of action is the best thing one can have in games like these, so I strongly suggest we create some.
Also, I'd like to know JeenLeen's actual claim.
Also also, I'm tentatively reconsidering my analysis of Caerulea as the final wolf. Unavenger is 100% a wolf though, and I'm still sus of YoshiCline.

[Grek]

Well, let's run down the claim list:

Player	Has Claimed	Notes
AvatarVecna	Contingency Planner	99% Confirmed
Xihirli	Code Thief	99% Confirmed
kgato503	Experimental Coder	99% Confirmed
Caerulea	Retaliator	Unwise NK target
Elenna	Retaliator	Unwise NK target
Grek	Proxy	Unwise scry target
YoshiCline	Proxy	Unwise scry target
The Outsider	IT Worker	Last Double Claim
Unavenger	IT Worker	Last Double Claim
JeenLeen	???	Fake-Claimed Retaliator
flyinglemur	???	No Vote D2
PartyOfRouges	???	???

Assuming that the SYSADMIN is neither one of the top 5 people in that list nor willing to target any of the top five people on that list, and that one of either Caerula or Elenna is a Wolf, killing someone on the bottom half of the list has only a 33% chance of getting a Wolf and a 66% chance of killing Town, including a 16% chance of killing the Accountant. (If we allow the possibility that either Xihirli or kgato503 might be a fake-claiming SYSADMIN who's not been challenged on their claim, the odds drop to 28% Wolf and 72% Town. If we instead assume that both Caerula and Elenna are innocent for some reason, the odds go back up, especially if it turns out that one of them is the SYSADMIN and only claiming Retaliator to avoid NKs. But that seems even less likely than Xihirli/kgato being the SYSADMIN.)

Worst case scenario is that both NKs kill a town tomorrow in a way that seems to reveal a wolf but actually leads us to mis-lynch. That would bring us down to 3 wolves/6 town starting the next day. That is both unlikely and not game-ruining. At best, the day after that is 2 wolves/5 town or at worst 3 wolves/4 town if the SYSADMIN or someone with an EC kill bundle (if there is such a thing) flubs the NK for a second time. So, we have the numbers to survive one Town-Vigging, but not enough to safely survive two. As long as the SYSADMIN is careful and the town uses its head, we should be fine even if we get a rotten string of luck.

[YoshiCline]

I'm not suspicious I'm just lazy and letting you all do the work - just getting into my role as proxy ;)

[AvatarVecna]

Why are the Proxy claimants unwise scry targets, Grek? I wanna hear your reasoning on this, because I've come to the opposite conclusion.