The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Because Rich wanted to give us something to obsess over until Early February.
    Only until early February? You're assuming that their identity will be revealed within the next few updates; if there's anything the MitD has taught us, such a thing can be postponed as long as Rich likes. Maybe they're staying invisible for the next few years' worth of updates, for all we know.

  2. - Top - End - #332
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Because Rich wanted to give us something to obsess over until Early February.

    And he's succeeded. Epicly so.
    That's the Doylist reason. Being a good writer, Rich will also have a Watsonian reason.

    Which could be that they're naturally invisible (AKA invisible stalkers), or that they're of a species/type that Lien would change her mind and go back to fighting if she saw them and they actually want to negotiate/talk.

    Or it could be something else. Rich is good at coming up with "something else."

  3. - Top - End - #333
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I'm not 100% certain he has scalp hair to cut, and his bread in rather on the scruffy side. Lien's haircutting might be higher level, depending on weather her hair is spiky (styled), scruffy, or anime.
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  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anitar View Post
    Only until early February? You're assuming that their identity will be revealed within the next few updates; if there's anything the MitD has taught us, such a thing can be postponed as long as Rich likes. Maybe they're staying invisible for the next few years' worth of updates, for all we know.
    True, but starting in February, there will also be new things for us to obsess over as well, which will take some of the attention away from the identities of Kermit and Scooter.

  5. - Top - End - #335
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    That's the Doylist reason. Being a good writer, Rich will also have a Watsonian reason.
    You mean beyond "Self-aware stick figure parody comic with a barely intact fourth wall"?

  6. - Top - End - #336
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    You mean beyond "Self-aware stick figure parody comic with a barely intact fourth wall"?
    Yep, unless he chooses to hang a lampshade on it by having Kermit and Scooter state that they hid their existence as part of the end of book cliffhanger, then I think there will be a Watsonian reason beyond "Self-aware stick figure parody comic with a barely intact fourth wall"?

  7. - Top - End - #337
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    What if... (crazy theory coming) ...they aren't invisible at all, and the reason we don't see then is because we are watching the scene from their point of view, since they are hidden behind the fourth wall?

    (We'll have two months to wait. Let's see how crazy this can get...)
    Last edited by D.One; 2019-12-04 at 03:20 PM.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
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  8. - Top - End - #338
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    So it's unlikely they're based on a floating earth mote hidden by the clouds ala Jack & the Beanstalk sort of situation?

    Could be hidden in whatever passes for the Feywild in this frozen realm?

    Plenty of possibilities!
    Last edited by Hopeless; 2019-12-04 at 03:25 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #339
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    I'm under the impression that the doors literally rearrange themselves frequently, perhaps any time they're not under direct observation. That would make it a lot harder to notice that more of them are being marked than there should be. Team Evil does want to get through as many as they can as quickly as they can; the last time the subject came up, they quit for the night because Redcloak was "tapped out".

    I agree that MitD is marking more than they should and risking detection, but they're still quite young and learning strategy. "If one or two is good, then seven or eight is even better!" Now that they've had the problem demonstrated, they'll probably slow down.
    Oh, sure, I know that's why MitD is marking too many--characterization and storytelling purposes. I was just saying that the strategy itself is actually good, if not for MitD being too overzealous with it. I do disagree, though. Whether the doors are in the same place or not is irrelevant--twenty doors in four days* is still enough for anyone to figure out "hey, we're doing more dungeons than we did before, that's kind of suspicious". It would make me more likely to actually stop and count and not just blindly trust that the right amount of doors are being crossed off, whereas if it was, say, six or seven doors in four days, I might be exhausted enough to go "oh, well, that looks right, those dungeons were long and similar, who is to say where one ended and one began and if we ran one or two or three last time?".
    *purely a random pick of numbers, don't come at me

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I'm going to put 100 quatloos on a secret passage (requiring some plot stuff to open) in only one of the paths.

    So even if invaders find the "right" path, they probably won't find the gate, and will have reason to believe it's elsewhere. There are no other hidden paths or anything to suggest this is anything other that a long, tough, conventional dungeon trawl.
    See now this is the kind of "twist" I was talking about. I like this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    I really didn't know it was a common spelling. Always thought it was an alternate unused spelling.
    This is weird to me, because as an American, I've seen and always used "grey" to mean a light color and "gray" to mean a dark color. Here's the difference: grey gray
    Maybe it's just because a lot of my friends tend to be interested in art or colors, but I've never seen an American write "a silvery gray" or "a dark grey". It's always "a silvery grey" and "a dark gray" because they've always been treated as two separate colors. I'm aware Americans tend to use the a and Brits tend to use the e, but this has always been my experience. :P
    Last edited by Mariele; 2019-12-04 at 04:23 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #340
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    That's the Doylist reason. Being a good writer, Rich will also have a Watsonian reason.

    Which could be that they're naturally invisible (AKA invisible stalkers), or that they're of a species/type that Lien would change her mind and go back to fighting if she saw them and they actually want to negotiate/talk.

    Or it could be something else. Rich is good at coming up with "something else."
    Or it could be that there's still an evil team nearby, like right where you can see them from this ledge, and all it takes for the epic level lich sorcerer to come after them is a single bugbear (or one of most other members of the group) making their spot check. Two visible creatures being carried off is still harder to spot than those creatures plus whoever's carrying them. And it's at least a little easier to get away or pull off a plan b after being spotted if you're invisible.

    In fact, I don't see why they would want to lift the effect at this point.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2019-12-04 at 04:40 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #341
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Alternate strategies for MitD: removing paint from doors when no-ones looking, painting every door, putting blue crosses over the red ones, removing doors from their hinges. As the old saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, confuse them.

  12. - Top - End - #342
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Alternate strategies for MitD: removing paint from doors when no-ones looking, painting every door, putting blue crosses over the red ones, removing doors from their hinges. As the old saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, confuse them.
    The key for MitD is to prevent the others from suspecting foul play in Team Evil, and only your first strategy fits the bill. And I kinda doubt there is an easy way of doing this for MitD to find, he has never been the sharpest blade in the drawer.
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  13. - Top - End - #343
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Well poisons are always stronger in the hands of the DM. Even the expensive ones are pretty underwhelming at high level, particularly injury poisons, but we could easily chalk this up to a powerful faction with access to a ridiculous poison and tons of gold. One off items seem like such a waste of gold until you use one to win.

    So... it all makes sense except for one thing. They're high level and they don't have answers to invisibility and flight, two of the most common high level challenges. A hand of glory is a very affordable way, for example. But perhaps it could make sense if she thinks she won't have time to effectively counter-attack, and only wishes to surrender rather than attempt anything. And before the offer of surrender perhaps she wanted to talk first. Or perhaps O'Chul is carrying the anti-invisibility item and they didn't think to get 2. Can't afford to prepare for every situation, after all, only some.
    Actually, I would have expected Lien to try healing O-Chul. Not sure if she can do that, but I'd expect her to be able to?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  14. - Top - End - #344
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Only works against poison if she memorized the proper spell that morning.

  15. - Top - End - #345
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Only works against poison if she memorized the proper spell that morning.
    Paladin anti poison spells are: Delay poison, which, well, only delays the inevitable given that she's got no help available and is level 2 for paladins. They get that at level 8 or 10 (depending on wisdom score), Lien may well have that one. Neutralize poison, which is useful, is level 4 for paladins and they get that at level 14 or 15 (most at 15), I doubt strongly that she's level 15.

    A level 18 paladin with a 17 in Wisdom gets ONE level four spell, and wisdom is his fourth most important ability. There are very good paladin spells at level 4, neutralize poison isn't one of them (restoration is, partly because it's better than neutralize poison even against many poisons).
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2019-12-04 at 06:42 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #346
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    How quickly do the dungeons repopulate? If MitD didn't mark the door of one that Team Evil did go through, would it be a giveaway if they went in again?

  17. - Top - End - #347
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    How quickly do the dungeons repopulate? If MitD didn't mark the door of one that Team Evil did go through, would it be a giveaway if they went in again?
    I just had a thought.
    Team evil goes into a bunch of dungeons.
    Xykon, Redcloak, Oona, Greyview, MiTD.

    We understand what the first four do during the battles.
    What does MiTD do besides stand around under that umbrella?
    We don't see wounds on him. (And given what Belkar ran into DR-wise, that maybe should not surprise us).
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-12-04 at 10:19 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #348
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    If nothing else the DR could be useful for shielding standing in front of a seriously wounded ally or dragging them to safety.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Also note that the MitD is capable of smacking armored and armed paladins as well as celestial warhorses through solid stone walls by accident; there's a good chance that anything that is capable of hurting him still won't have much chance to do so before taking a smack to the face. His job is probably "stand in front of the casters and play Who Can Hit The Lightest with the monsters inside".
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  20. - Top - End - #350
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Wait, TMitD is a bugbear? Two bugbears? Two adlalecent bugbears standing on each other's shoulders and wearing a trench coat?

    Who are these guys?

    Wow, this got even more interesting!
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516


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  21. - Top - End - #351
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Team Evil had the least screen time in this book than in all the other previous ones. Set up for being featured more highly in the final book?
    Being that it's the final book, I would assume so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    You mean beyond "Self-aware stick figure parody comic with a barely intact fourth wall"?
    That's not really a Watsonian reason, so by definition one would have to be beyond that.

  22. - Top - End - #352
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by F.Harr View Post
    Wait, TMitD is a bugbear? Two bugbears? Two adlalecent bugbears standing on each other's shoulders and wearing a trench coat?

    Who are these guys?

    Wow, this got even more interesting!
    Oona is a bugbear. Plus there might be a few more around as general support, but I don't think we've seen any of those yet, so probably not.

    But MitD could be two bugbears in a trenchcoat. It's not that ridiculous by MitD identity guessing standards.
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  23. - Top - End - #353
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Oona is a bugbear. Plus there might be a few more around as general support, but I don't think we've seen any of those yet, so probably not.

    But MitD could be two bugbears in a trenchcoat. It's not that ridiculous by MitD identity guessing standards.
    If by MitD being a bugbear you mean the combination of Ungoliant (bug) and Mor'du (from Brave, for the bear part), sure...
    Last edited by D.One; Yesterday at 05:55 AM.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

  24. - Top - End - #354
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    If nothing else the DR could be useful for shielding standing in front of a seriously wounded ally or dragging them to safety.
    "Hey, stand between me and that thing, now!"
    "Why, do you need me to protect your eyes from the sun? Okay..."
    *Slash slash* *spellcasting*
    "Now move over there!"
    "Is the sun coming from a different direction?"

  25. - Top - End - #355
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    "Hey, stand between me and that thing, now!"
    "Why, do you need me to protect your eyes from the sun? Okay..."
    *Slash slash* *spellcasting*
    "Now move over there!"
    "Is the sun coming from a different direction?"
    Even he isn't oblivious enough to think he needs to block the sun inside a windowless dungeon.

  26. - Top - End - #356
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Because they're illusionists, they mislead people.

    However, for all the other reasons I'm completely crossing off Girard as an option. It's not him.

    (Although familicide might allow a save only an epic level character could nah...)
    What he said. I'm honestly not serious about it beign girard.
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  27. - Top - End - #357
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    Default Re: OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    The key for MitD is to prevent the others from suspecting foul play in Team Evil...
    At least, suspecting him of foul play.

    Itís perfectly okay if Redcloak and Xykon suspect each other.

    Six doors? Are you trying to get me killed, Wrong-Eye?
    Are you kidding, sir? I know youíre painting extra marks on doors because youíre bored.
    No chance, baldy. Thatís you. You donít want me finding this precious Gate any more, do you? Who are you working with?
    A psychopath, obviously. Which door was my Gate behind!?
    Last edited by Fish; Yesterday at 07:33 PM.
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