OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Really? Because I feel like dropping "I" is extremely common. "What are you doing Saturday, Joe?" "Going to the movies, Bob." Doesn't really say anything profound about Joe, it's just common, casual, English usage to drop the subject of a sentence when it's obvious.

Also, am I the only one who read the exchange about not existing anymore as sort of a wistful, gallows-humorish way of talking about the (apparently) impending end of the world?

No, I feel the exact same way.

Maybe we're just self-conscious Brits, though.

[Grey Watcher]

No, I feel the exact same way.

Maybe we're just self-conscious Brits, though.

I, sir, am a self-conscious Yankee. The spelling of my username is strictly a function of pretentiousness (and possibly having read Tolkein a few too many times as a kid).

[hroþila]

"The subject pronoun is mandatory" is perhaps the biggest lie I was ever told in English class. I suppose it made sense to make a big deal out of it when all your students are speakers of an intensely pro-drop language, but still.

Also, am I the only one who read the exchange about not existing anymore as sort of a wistful, gallows-humorish way of talking about the (apparently) impending end of the world?

That's how I read it too.

[bunsen_h]

Really? Because I feel like dropping "I" is extremely common. "What are you doing Saturday, Joe?" "Going to the movies, Bob." Doesn't really say anything profound about Joe, it's just common, casual, English usage to drop the subject of a sentence when it's obvious.

Yup. Do it myself from time to time.

[redzimmer]

I just immediately thought Enor and Gannji.

[Peelee]

"The subject pronoun is mandatory" is perhaps the biggest lie I was ever told in English class.

Oh boy, do I have some news for you...

[Petrocorus]

I, sir, am a self-conscious Yankee. The spelling of my username is strictly a function of pretentiousness (and possibly having read Tolkein a few too many times as a kid).

Wait... do "Grey Watcher" would be spelled differently in "yankee" English?

[Peelee]

Wait... do "Grey Watcher" would be spelled differently in "yankee" English?

American is "gray."

[MossyMeow]

Who even says Yankee anymore?

[Petrocorus]

American is "gray."

I really didn't know it was a common spelling. Always thought it was an alternate unused spelling.

Who even says Yankee anymore?

Grey Watcher, apparently.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Really? Because I feel like dropping "I" is extremely common. "What are you doing Saturday, Joe?" "Going to the movies, Bob." Doesn't really say anything profound about Joe, it's just common, casual, English usage to drop the subject of a sentence when it's obvious.

If it was just some guy doing it I wouldn't analyze it as much. But we have reason to think the speaker isn't even humanoid, so some questions about how they think are more important. Just like if somebody said "ah.." I'd consider Rich included it in and edited, limited word format for a reason rather than dismiss it as something people just do a thousand times a day.

Also you example is a response to a question, which tends to be a sentence fragment that isn't supposed to make any sense without the question.

On the other hand, they say that it seems English speakers will invent a subject out of thin air (like when "it's raining") just so verbs will have subjects.

[Faramir]

Oooh, here's another idea.

They are Kraagor and Serini.
Remember, Kraagor was halfway into the rift when the gate was sealed.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html
This could have transformed him into ... whatever that is. Eventually he gained control over his form and tracked down Serini. That same strip implied that they were in a relationship so somehow she managed to join him in that state, a state which relies on the Gated rift continuing to exist exactly as is. If the Gate is broken or the rift moved they will cease to exist.

No idea if it's true but it connects some of the dots nicely.

[Windscion]

Oooh, here's another idea.

They are Kraagor and Serini.... That same strip implied that they were in a relationship ...

Um, no. The party portrait has a note on Kraagor, but it says "Mean! .... Grr."

[D.One]

[...] That same strip implied that they were in a relationship [...]

I wonder why in the name of fair Aphrodite every thread must have one or more "those two characters are probably/will probably be/were probably in a relationship" speculation... Is it established in some Forum Rule I don't know?

[Ghosty]

Um, no. The party portrait has a note on Kraagor, but it says "Mean! .... Grr."

Yeah, not in a relationship at the time. Not in one now, probably, but people change over a bunch of years. Maybe she can stand his company now, especially as they probably know they're the last survivors of the Scribble.

I still think the voices are Outsiders, so not S&K, but I've no idea who they could be. Which will make it fun to find out.

On Serini still being alive, Team Evil has her diary. Knows that, if she were still alive, she's an Epic-level or nearly so rogue. Do either X or RC look concerned about that in the slightest? Wouldn't you be worried about her dropping in, if you were in Team Evil, if you didn't already know she couldn't?

[Ghosty]

I wonder why in the name of fair Aphrodite every thread must have one or more "those two characters are probably/will probably be/were probably in a relationship" speculation... Is it established in some Forum Rule I don't know?

I think it's like the 7th Commandment of fansites: "Thou shall always ship, if possible. Even if not possible." Annoys me too.

That said, if both were still alive, nothing says her antipathy----Grrrr!----couldn't have morphed into tolerance, or at least a shared commitment to keeping their Gate intact.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah, not in a relationship at the time. Not in one now, probably, but people change over a bunch of years. Maybe she can stand his company now, especially as they probably know they're the last survivors of the Scribble.

I still think the voices are Outsiders, so not S&K, but I've no idea who they could be. Which will make it fun to find out.

On Serini still being alive, Team Evil has her diary. Knows that, if she were still alive, she's an Epic-level or nearly so rogue. Do either X or RC look concerned about that in the slightest? Wouldn't you be worried about her dropping in, if you were in Team Evil, if you didn't already know she couldn't?

Xykon is the one who actually got it and he’s not the member of Team Evil known for contingency planning or worrying about hypothetical situations.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think it's like the 7th Commandment of fansites: "Thou shall always ship, if possible. Even if not possible." Annoys me too.

I think Kraagor's gate is in a relationship with Sunken Valley.

[Peelee]

Who even says Yankee anymore?

Brits.

I really didn't know it was a common spelling. Always thought it was an alternate unused spelling.

Imean, it is. It's just the Brits use "E" and Americans tend to use "A". I like the "E", looks better IMO.

[Grey Watcher]

Um, no. The party portrait has a note on Kraagor, but it says "Mean! .... Grr."

Indeed, the placement of the hearts in the drawing indicate that Girard was the object of her affection. No info on of it was reciprocated, though.

[Mike Havran]

Hmm. I bet my gold pieces on someone related to IFCC. If it were Serini, I find it strange that she did not try to sabotage Xykon in any way, and I can see nothing in-universe that would trigger such attack on the paladins right now (that information about the two-day limit for OotS to arrive seems a bit arbitrary). Furthermore, the IFCC plan has been due to start just about right now. On the other hand, why would they not want to kill at least one of the paladins is beyond me.

[CriticalFailure]

If Sereni secretly sabotaged her is own gate to try and get Kraagor back she could know they won’t find what they’re looking for but it’s highly unlikely it is her plus there has to be some explanation for how Xykon got her diary.

[KorvinStarmast]

I’m also leaning toward Kermit and Scooter protecting the Gate against paladins. They are, after all, not supposed to be there.

Fish, you once again show why you are a favorite poster of mine. You took a vague notion that was banging around in my head and put a point on it. Again. I think you are on to something.

Hm... Anyone else think it's odd that Green is worried about them being spotted by a bugbear?

Bugbears would alert Oona who would alert Xykon.

Maybe we're just self-conscious Brits, though.

huh, never took you for a Brit.

Who even says Yankee anymore?

1. Fans of the baseball team. 2. Texans now and again do, these days, but it's not usually being used as a compliment.

I think Kraagor's gate is in a relationship with Sunken Valley.

Unrequited love, or long distance love affair?

[Peelee]

huh, never took you for a Brit.

Person 1: "I think they are X because they speak like this."
Person 2: "I think it's just Y behavior because they speak like this."
Person 3: "Looks like normal speech to me."
Me: "Same, so I can only assume we must be Y-ish Xes."
Audience: *laughs at my brilliant wit.*

Frog dissected. Peelee saddened.

[Anitar]

Bugbears would alert Oona who would alert Xykon.

I'm not saying that being spotted wouldn't be bad news; I'm saying that the voices should, in theory, have reason to believe it wouldn't happen under these circumstances.

[Peelee]

I'm not saying that being spotted wouldn't be bad news; I'm saying that the voices should, in theory, have reason to believe it wouldn't happen under these circumstances.

The owners of the voices wouldn't be spotted, but the floating bodies of two paladins are significantly more visible. Under the circumstances, I would say it's the only time they would have reason to believe they'd be spotted.

[Malloon]

And now the second of eight webcomics I'm following is going on hiatus. It will be a long drought period until next year.

But let's not be dissuaded from speculating on what is to come. I'm not very familiar with any D&D system, having stuck to other systems for now, so I can't speculate using knowledge from that. What I *can* do, and has not been done in this thread, is speculate using the arcane art of storytelling . Specifically, characterisation. And also a bit of normal observation. Which I'll lead with.

First, size. There are a few ways for us to speculate on the size of the beings here. The first way is the angle the darts are thrown. Using the knowledge of their angle and at what height they hit their targets we can speculate on the upper limit of the person throwing them - assuming they aren't flying. Three darts were thrown. The first hit O-Chul in the back of the neck while he's sitting. It might be at an angle from below, or it might be from an angle that was closer to where we're looking from. It flew about parallel to the snow bank they were using as cover. It hit him on the right side of his neck while he had his back to the snow bank - while he was sitting just left of the large bulge in the snow back, or basically in the middle. IF the person throwing them is standing, they'd have to stand in the far corner of the snow bank, where O-Chul moves to immediately after getting hit. They could have moved, but each subsequent dart comes from the same direction. Them moving away from there, then moving back, seems unlikely. As such, I think they must have been FLYING when they threw the dart. Which renders my trying to find out how large they are from the angles of attack quite fruitless.

The second way of ascertaining how large they are is from the sizes of the darts. Either they were thrown, or propelled, but either way the creature that could handle them couldn't have had very large appendages. Creatures of the size Large and larger are out - for the thrower.

The third way of finding out how large they are is from the picture of the paladins and their weapons flying through the air. Lien and O-Chul are clearly hanging from their feet, and quite a ways away from each other, both horizontally and vertically. Either they are being carried by two different creatures, or the thing carrying them is large, and by that I mean at least Large. And since the green voice tells the orange voice to pick up both Lien and O-Chul, I'm guessing the orange voice is a big creature.

It's unclear who or what is carrying the weapons, but we can't rule out the orange voice carrying them having more than two appendages - or, more likely, that the weapons have been stuffed in the their belt. (I'm unclear on how invisibility works exactly, but I'd assume things that are picked up and put in containers such as belts or straps don't also turn invisible.) They're certainly at the right height for that, if we assume O-Chul is being held in a raised arm and Lien is tucked in an armpit or somesuch. I don't think the other, medium or smaller character is carrying the weapons because of how they are held - the sword is upside-down and considerably higher than the spear, which means either the carrier is holding the sword by the blade or hefting their right arm quite a bit above their head to hold the grip. No, how the weapons are oriented, with the sword's blade pointing downwards and the spear's point up, would be exactly how I'd put them in the belt of a being large enough that the spear wouldn't get in the way.

So, we have a Large or larger creature that is subservient to a Medium or smaller creature (since the other creature doing the throwing can only be the green voice).

Now to their characterisation.

First off, green. They're not Serini, unless she's changed a lot since her days in the Order of the Scribble. She would be far more talkative, while green speaks in short, terse sentences. Now that could be a result of us never having seen her in battle, facing foes, but somehow I doubt she would slip over to completely untalkative. And the little we saw of her post Kraagor's death didn't seem to have changed her way of speaking much. (Comic 0276 and onward.) And just comparing how she talked, the speech patterns are different. No, it's not Serini.

So who are they? Let's examine what they are, character-wise.
1) They have access to what I hear is greater invisibility. How is unclear, but combined with the other things below is seems probably they themselves can cast it or have acquired it.
2) Unashamed about being called a coward - a rogue-type or otherwise shadowy-sneaky characterisation
3) Not afraid to complement the paladins. This will be relevant when we figure out what their relationship is - friend, or foe?
4) They prefer sneaking and attacking the paladins to attacking them outright. Either they don't think they could take them in a straight fight, they thought it would be more suitable for the situation, or they just prefer to operate like this. Again, rogue or similar.
5) They're good at convincing. Again, rogue MO.
6) They're ruthless, or they're good at bluffing. Considering all the sneaky-rogue-tricksy things already established, bluffing seems like the obvious option. Which doesn't mean they're not ruthless, of course.
7) They can use and are willing to use poison. That points to both sneaky-shadowy and ruthlessness.
8) They're willing to abide by the letter of the law while breaking the spirit, though this isn't a strong tendency since the deal they struck with Lien didn't really imply they wouldn't attack her.
9) They're in a melancholic mood presently over the fact they believe they will soon stop existing.
10) They specified existing, not just dying. So either they believe that the Snarl will soon do away with them, or they're an outsider who believe they will soon die. If the latter, it's unlikely they're talking about the gods ending the world, because given the memory wipes outsiders get it's unlikely they'd have any certainty over what would happen. If they did have certainty, it would more likely go the other way, with a god having told them they'd survive with wiped memories. The only way they'd have certainty over their cessation of existence is if someone lied to them (Does Loki have more pieces in play? Sorry, stupid question. Could these be outsiders manipulated by Loki to believe the world ending would kill them? How would that benefit him?), or they jumped to the conclusion. They don't seem impulsive enough for the latter, since...
11) They're patient, having waited and watched for some time now.
12) They're in a position of authority over the orange voice.

So... medium or smaller, sneaky, patient, not overly talkative, not honourable, good at convincing and probably bluffing, could be ruthless, and either believe the Snarl will soon do them in OR are an outsider who was lied to (by Loki, maybe) over what happens to outsiders when the world ends or believe they will die soon in a different, unspecified manner. Considering they're good at bluffing, etc., I'd doubt they were successfully lied to, which leaves them being an outsider believing they'll die another way or being anything else of medium or smaller size and believing the Snarl will get them soon.

Which probably means their actions are meant to be conducive to letting the Snarl win.


Now for orange's characterisation. Two short sentences aren't much to go on, but I do my best.

1) Subservient to green.
2) Not melancholic, given their enthusiasm for following an order.
3) Probably not as smart or philosophical as green, since they don't seem to have given their approaching end much thought.
4) They will also stop existing, according to green. Given that they seem to be of a different size and type (?) to green (going by speech-bubble colours), they could be another outsider (with a different alignment to green) who is going to die in an unspecified manner, but I think it's altogether more likely they're something else who is going to be unravelled by the snarl (though of course one of the pair could still be an outsider).


If I had to put my money on anything, it would be an entirely new faction. One that wants the Snarl to win (though they're not ecstatic about the whole dying thing). We've got another book to go, so complaints about them being introduced so late ring a tad hollow for me - especially if it's shown they've been manipulating things from the start. A faction wanting the Snarl to win is exactly what we've been missing. Redcloak and the Purple One just want to use it as a threat. Xykon too, though with the threat being directed differently. Hel doesn't want it. Tarquin either. The IFCC... well, I'll get back to them. We've got this world-ending threat, but no-one involved actually wants it to happen, only for it to happen locally, if at all. If we want the highest stakes possible, we don't just want the possibility of Redcloak and Purple Nurple winning, or Xykon winning, we want the actual possibility of the Snarl being unleashed, utterly and completely. And not just by mistake.

Now, back to the IFCC - they certainly have made choices that make the Snarl being unleashed more likely: Removing V at a critical moment that prevented them from stopping Roy destroying Girard's gate, for one. They would have liked Hel's plan working, so we can at least assume they want to destroy the world. But destroy it utterly, with themselves being gone too? I don't see them ever wanting that. Unreasonable spite, aka. wanting your enemy to suffer no matter the cost to your own well-being, is something that exists, but the IFCC seem entirely too... reasonable for that (considering they type of organisation they are, setting aside the blood feud to strike at a greater enemy). They certainly want to use the Snarl, somehow, to strike at the gods (and given the secrecy I don't think they're planning on just hijacking Redcloak and his Purpleness's plan). But endanger themselves? No.

Which is why I seriously doubt green and orange here work for them. Green thinks the Snarl will kill them. And the Snarl isn't known for being selective, so if green believes the Snarl will kill them, they believe the Snarl will kill everyone.

Well, there's my two (thousand) cents. Use it as you will.

[mjasghar]

The crack seen in the last panel can’t be on a glacier because glaciers are always moving.
The rift location is static so doesn’t that mean the gate is as well?
so more likely an ice sheet

[WindStruck]

Personally, I believe these new invisible people are some kind of Fey.

Flying and invisible? Yup. Pixies can do that innately, and probably any sufficiently strong Fey sorcerer/wizard.

True to their word? Seems like it, otherwise why bother moving the bodies. But notice how they only keep their word to the letter.

Speech color: unique and colorful enough to not be human. I think it fits the bill well for them.

Notice how the dart also looks like a thorn...

Also the context of "existing" being fun while it lasted has a more immortal vibe to it. Though I do imagine any odd quirk to the language or discrepancy could very well be attributed to this being a self-aware stick figure universe.

Well anyway, it's just my bias. I do love fey in d&d games. Hope it comes true!

[TRH]

Personally, I believe these new invisible people are some kind of Fey.

Flying and invisible? Yup. Pixies can do that innately, and probably any sufficiently strong Fey sorcerer/wizard.

True to their word? Seems like it, otherwise why bother moving the bodies. But notice how they only keep their word to the letter.

Speech color: unique and colorful enough to not be human. I think it fits the bill well for them.

Notice how the dart also looks like a thorn...

Also the context of "existing" being fun while it lasted has a more immortal vibe to it. Though I do imagine any odd quirk to the language or discrepancy could very well be attributed to this being a self-aware stick figure universe.

Well anyway, it's just my bias. I do love fey in d&d games. Hope it comes true!

Might be because I've played a pixie in a campaign recently, but I see the case for fey as well. That said, that still doesn't answer several questions, starting with what they're doing here and why.