OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Okay, my real vote goes to someone/thing from the planet inside the Snarl. And they've been in this world from before the first Gates were built.

Oooo, that's interesting. They do have completely separately colored bubbles, including Green which could mean something if it's involved with the Snarl.

My vote is still with the IFCC.

The order: wants to save the world permanently
RC: wants to pressure the gods into making the world better for the goblins
IFCC: conflict, but with the meaning that they can have an alliance between fiend types.

[Sonata Arctica]

A invisibility not so great that can e smelt by bugbears, a poison so great to take out O-Chul one hit.
I'd be surprised if that's not Serini Toormuck.
But why would she want to cease existing?

Also, how long will it take for Redcloak to realize NONE of the doors contains the gate?
Serini was a Rogue, that is obviously a con.
It is probably hding somewhere else, like Kraagor's monument.

[Sniccups]

Wow, they really have accelerated the search. Back when we saw them delving in 1041, Redcloak was arguing against merely doing a SECOND door in one day. Now he’s trying to do SIX.

I wonder if Xykon gained a level.

[Doug Lampert]

It's the Ninth Side: Right-Eye's daughter and Fyron's son.

Well, everyone is Red Cloak's niece, so that's obvious, but good catch on Fyron's son.

A being associated with green-ness, who has a role to play in the last book (but no sooner) and very unclear motives...

Yeah, sounds like Redcloak's niece to me.

Bingo.

So far, the hypothesis on Those Guys^TM are:
- Serini or her agents.
- IFCC.
- Some agents of the Snarl.
- Fey.
- Some gods.
- A completely new side.
- Redcloak's niece.

The last one being obviously the most realistic.

It's the only logical possibility, except....

There’s a greeny-colored one that’s in charge and a reddish-orangey one who obeys and calls him “boss.”

Clearly: it’s Kermit and Scooter.

I think we can all rest easy now.

This one. Which also makes perfect sense compared to most forum theories.

More seriously,

(1) They are trying to take the paladin's alive, this probably means that they think their goals may be compatible with the paladins' goal and they may be able to arrange a deal. They could trivially have killed the paladins in their sleep or something, this is not a necessarily hostile faction.

(2) They are in fact attacking the Paladins, this means they thought showing up and talking was non-viable. They are not obviously friendly.

(3) Nothing we have seen them do is incompatible with a lawful alignment, they were completely truthful. It could also be neutral or chaotic.

(4) On the good-evil axis, to make a judgement we'd need to know what they'd have done if Lien had refused to surrender and they'd been unable to take her out. Basically, we don't yet know squat about their alignment.

(5) Green bubble tells orange bubble to "Grab them," implying that one of them is carrying both paladins. But the paladins are shown as a substantial distance apart and aren't light, so orange bubble is probably large or bigger. Giants, dragons, half dragons, and outsiders all have colored speech bubbles, so this doesn't tell us all that much, but probably at least one is a big member of an "exotic" race.

(6) They expect to cease existing soon. This could be because they are linked to the gate, or because they are linked to the world, or because they expect to do something suicidal, but this implies outsiders as death for a living creature isn't to cease existing.

So, outsiders, at least one big, would be my bet. The Lammasu is large, and gets greater invisibility 2/day as a spell-like, that's the only creature I can find with a spell-like greater invisibility, and it has claws that wouldn't be good at gripping. But it could be someone who simply knows the spell or a naturally invisible creature like an invisible stalker. Invisibility is probably a clue, but it's not a great one.

[Pampukin]

I think “minions of IFCC” is the most likely of the speculations I’ve seen thus far. (Of course, they could be someone entirely new).

Reviewing some of the subtler things we know about these GB (Green Bubble) and OB (Orange Bubble):

1. They waited until Lien got the sending from Varsuuvius (and replied) to attack, even though O-chul and Lien have been camped there for quite a while. Why would Serini/Eastern gods/whatever have waited? and they did wait—hence the “finally doing this” thing. IFCC would expect there likely is an incoming sending, and could plausibly want Oots to believe Lien and Ochul were okay, and get them to come to a specific location, or something like that.
2. GB expects this will lead to their non-existence. IFCC seems to want to destroy the world.
3. GB and OB don’t seem to think the paladins would be easy for them to beat in a fair fight, or even an unfair one where the paladins are forewarned but they are still invisible. Why? 1) If they did, they could have waited until Xykon and co. went back inside (and then not risk being spotted by the Lich) to attack O-chul and Lien; instead, they used the possibility of getting spotted by Xykon to coerce the paladins into coming quietly. 2) They were worried the poisons would be insufficient. that implies it’s a problem for them if the poisons aren’t. That pretty immediately rules out Serini herself or any kind of god for me—those would be too strong for this to make sense.
4) They knew Lien and O-chul were paladins (Before Lien mentions it). I wouldn’t expect random northern creatures to know about the Sapphire guard. IFCC definitely has the scrying punch to figure that out easily, but admittedly a number of other sides could as well.
5) OB enthusiastically calls GB “boss.” This rules our Enor and Gannji for me (also, aren’t they still doing pro bono work in the desert?), as well as any other equal “partnership” we already know of (like Tarquin’s team, for example).
6) Based on the second to last panel, they either fly or are really good climbers. That plus the speech balloons suggests they aren’t human.


More forthcoming as I notice them.

1. Maybe they figured since reinforcements would be incoming this was the last chance to have a peacefull conversation with the paladins, they probably are chaotic and chaotic being dont like to deal with lawfuls unless its from a position of power, since like Hayley once said, they tend to impose their views on others.
2. It has been theorized that their existence could be tied to either the gate, or the world within the rift. Maybe OB is pessimistic about the chances to contain the snarl and expects this is all futile.
3. I generally agree that they waited for the perfect moment, but I would add that maybe they can win but in direct combat could not without injury on some of the involved, either them or the paladins, plus this timing also helps if Xykon does notice, he and his party is somewhat depleted and escaping might be more likely.
4. It does depend on how much they have been listening to the other two, Lien and O´Chull joke a lot about being paladins, also probably cast spells and pray a lot, so it could have been an informed guess.
5.I agree those two are not in on this.
6. I also noticed they seem to be carrying the duo by their feet, but holding their weapons pretty far from them, so that suggests at least some size/strength involved.


My quatloos are on some of the inhabitants of the tomb, some sort of monster that lives there, and will cease existing because the magic that replenishes the monsters in the tomb will go out if the gate is destroyed/opened/tampered with.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Okay, my real vote goes to someone/thing from the planet inside the Snarl. And they've been in this world from before the first Gates were built.

That might actually be pretty close. The "existing was fun" comment could indicate that these are creatures that have somehow experienced not existing, starting out outside existence, but then literally coming into existence through a rift.

I mean, Serini is just too big another shoe that hasn't been dropped yet, she almost needs to appear in the final book. But if these are extra-existential beings, that was a great line for not quite giving it away.

Plus the planet in the rift is if possible an even bigger shoe yet to be dropped. Why have a planet but no creatures?

Might it even tie into the Mitd's species somehow? The monster is definitely not something completely unknown in the primary world, but it still seems pretty exotic. So there could be some kind of interplay with misterious visitors from another world. That might also make it make sense that the monster is good but didn't know it yet.

[Pampukin]

Whats the exact timetable here? Wasnt the first party that fought the snarl a few generations ago? I forget how much halflings live, but I dont remember them to be as long lived as elves or dwarfs right? I dont think Serini can be alive, and if she is and has aged would be a decrepit lady by now wouldnt she? I mean Shojo was very old and he inherited the sapphire guard from Soons aprentice didnt he?

[Fish]

I get the feeling that Kermit and Scooter have been waiting a long time to do whatever it is they’re doing, and that their existence is somehow conditional — they finish the job and then they stop existing, or something.

Maybe Serini went to the Oracle and asked what kind of defenses she’d need, and set these guys up.

[Ruck]

Whats the exact timetable here? Wasnt the first party that fought the snarl a few generations ago? I forget how much halflings live, but I dont remember them to be as long lived as elves or dwarfs right? I dont think Serini can be alive, and if she is and has aged would be a decrepit lady by now wouldnt she? I mean Shojo was very old and he inherited the sapphire guard from Soons aprentice didnt he?

I want to say, offhand, that it was 66 years ago, and halflings live longer than humans but not as long as elves.

[Mad Humanist]

I get the feeling that Kermit and Scooter have been waiting a long time to do whatever it is they’re doing, and that their existence is somehow conditional — they finish the job and then they stop existing, or something.

Maybe Serini went to the Oracle and asked what kind of defenses she’d need, and set these guys up.

Seriously I actually find that theory quite plausible. Not Kermit and Scooter specifically but that Serini arranged for some extra-planar creatures to be conjured into existence as part of her defence.

I also think it is significant that the attack started when O-Chul was about to suggest hunting for the gate themselves. Maybe if he had kept quiet they would not have needed to do it.

[Ruck]

So we are speculating with scant evidence? In this case ...

Narrative convention implies that they are probably not evil. Lien decided to surrender and avoid confrontation. People being taught the lesson that they ought to be less trusting usually happens in much darker stories. (Okay, yes, Celia ... but she was portrayed as being very obviously very naive, and she didn't think things through)

My guess is that they are very paranoid and therefore want to neither show the paladins what they themselves look like, nor where their hideout is ... because they have no intention of killing them.

... of course, since they seem to think they are as good as dead, I am not sure why they would think it would matter.



The Serini theory fits with it (somewhat) since Tolkien's hobbits, on which halflings are based, are based on the Fair Folk legends of the British Isles.

And the strangers seem to be rather small and weak - it looks like they just grabbed O-Chuls feet, and perhaps just one of Lien's feet, and they clearly don't think they can best Lien and O-Chul in a fight.
Halflings can't usually fly, though.

If they're sufficiently Lawful, they'll keep their word to administer the antidote to O-Chul even if they were Evil. That said, I don't necessarily think they are Evil, but I wouldn't bet on Chaotic, myself.

All the rest of your analysis seems to make sense to me, although if this involves Serini I don't understand why she would go this route instead of talking.

[Petrocorus]

Whats the exact timetable here? Wasnt the first party that fought the snarl a few generations ago? I forget how much halflings live, but I dont remember them to be as long lived as elves or dwarfs right? I dont think Serini can be alive, and if she is and has aged would be a decrepit lady by now wouldnt she? I mean Shojo was very old and he inherited the sapphire guard from Soons aprentice didnt he?

In 3.5, halflings age a bit slower than humans. And Serini was young at the time i believe, maybe 20ish. Like Elan and Haley. Not sure.
And IIRC, this was about 60ish years ago. So she could still be alive but quite old. About 80 to 90, which would put her in the old age category, equivalent to a human of 60 to 70.

So she could still be alive even if she doesn't do the leg work herself.

There are also several magic way to extend lifespan in 3.5, and Serini is apparently epic level, so she could have access to some.

[blunk]

It being Serini would be tried-and-true in the sense that O-Chul was just asking, "how will we know where the Gate is (and how will we get in without being spotted)?" and got interrupted by somebody who knows exactly where the Gate is and can fly invisibly. Similar to the "who did [thing]?" question immediately followed by cutting to the (seemingly unlikely) person who did [thing].

Maybe too cliché, maybe not.

EDIT: another thought: if it were anyone who didn't know where the Gate was, wouldn't kidnapping the paladins just make it more likely that Xykon would secure the Gate (or Redcloak would transport it, depending on how much the mystery attackers knew)? But "they're finally doing this" and expect to stop existing; that jibes with "now that the good guys are coming, let's sneak in to where we know where the Gate is, and destroy it... after all this time."

Only thing I can't figure out is, why would Serini be so pessimistic about the Order's chances of victory? Is it just that she's seen how facilely Team Evil has been plowing through caves of high-level monsters and figures no group of heroes could get the better of them? And even so, wouldn't it behoove her to at least "wait and see" and then destroy the Gate after Team Evil wipes the floor with the Order?

[Quinton250]

Here are a few things I thought were relevant when I read the comment (some of these have already been noted while I typed this, oh well):

-The mystery characters have been monitoring the situation long enough to know that Xykon has had multiple encounters today and that the paladins don't want him to be aware of their presence. The ambush came immediately after the sending spell, likely because that was a cue for the attackers (though it's possibly just because the narrative has shifted to the paladins now so their plot is allowed to move forward).
-It's heavily implied that the green voiced character is the one using the poison darts. The green voiced character asks the orange voiced character to grab the paladins, implying the orange voiced character is larger and stronger. Their manner of speech and the fact that the orange voiced character calls the green voiced character "Boss" makes me think that the orange voiced character fits the big dumb henchman trope.
-All three poison darts are shot at an upward trajectory. That doesn't necessary mean the character who launched them was short, they could have been flying just off the side or throwing them underhand or side arm but if they were launched while standing on the cliff and they were shot with a blowgun or thrown overhand then the person launching them was likely short.
-The green voiced character seems to have used the antidote on the paladins prior to them being carried away, based on the fact that we don't see any green bubbles. It also seems like they are bringing their weapons with them. This implies that the ambushers don't want to hurt the paladins and want them to continue to be able to fight in the future but likely didn't trust that they'd be able to approach them safely.
-The fact that the ambushers needed invisibility, poison and flying to complete the attack and had doubts about the potential of the poison working likely means they aren't especially powerful. Lien was able to block the dart meant for her and the ambusher needed to negotiate her surrender before trying to launch another dart. The ambushers are also worried about the bug bears seeing them.
-We have seen color on color speech balloons from Soon (oath ghost), Girard (desert illusion message to Soon), Empress of Blood, Enor and the Frost Giants.
-We don't know how either mystery character is flying or invisible. Is it something one or both can do on their own or are scrolls involved, we don't really know.

Here are my thoughts on who this may be:
-I don't think it's Serini. A poison attack launched from a low angle at the gate she is defending would make her a prime candidate, but if she wanted to let the snarl destroy the world (my assumption based on the existing comment), she is in control of the only gate left standing so she already had the power to achieve this.
-The IFCC recently said that their underlings will get their hands dirty and stating that the godsmoot destroying existence would have fulfilled their plan makes them a likely culprit. Sabine is acquiring a vessel and it's more likely that someone the IFCC associates with would have a colored voice than most earthly possibilities. The fact that they didn't just kill the paladins and weren't happy about how the encounter went makes me doubt that it's the IFCC a little bit though.
-It's possible that this ambush was completed in order to set the stage for a future ambush of the Order of the Stick when they arrive. They know where they will be going and they even have two paladins to use as bait if required. They needed to allow the paladins to answer the message and respond back to ensure the OOTS would come to them. This implies that the survival of the paladins wasn't because the attackers are merciful in any way, which once again doesn't fit the tone I get from the green voiced character.
-With all that said, it's obviously Red Cloak's Niece who has since become a Witch Doctor.

[hroþila]

I really like the idea of these being Serini and a buddy, or otherwise affiliated with Serini. My first idea was IFCC but I agree with whoever said they don't read as Evil to me (while an Evil being could have an Evil use for captured paladins, I don't think they would have said "That could've gone better" in that case. If the goal was just to capture them, it went perfectly. If they were hoping to avoid unnecessary hostility with a view to future cooperation, it didn't go so smoothly).

And while the dialogue might imply they're working to destroy the world, I don't think it actually says that. It's actually pretty vague. I think it's misdirection.

[ManuelSacha]

Yay, we're finally meeting Serini! Kinda. Maybe.

This.
By exclusion, it must be some kind of guardian left there by Serini, or Serini herself.
The "stop existing" part sounds like they are magically summoned entities that will stop existing after their task is completed.

[Fitzclowningham]

Some random thoughts:

If the newcomers are somehow related to Serini's gate protection scheme, I can't figure out why they haven't interfered with Xykon et al.

What kind of summoned/created creatures would use poison delivered by dart?

Green Bubble's speech is not formal. It's colloquial, casual, and even a bit stilted, for whatever it's worth.

How could the encounter have gone better, from the point of view of the newcomers? From one vantage, it looks to have proceeded exactly as they intended, maybe with the exception of Lien blocking the second dart. It's possible that the ideal scenario was that the newcomers didn't need to attack in the first place.

I have a feeling that Green Bubble is engaging in some (near) epic-level bluffing with regard to O-chul's poison.

I wonder what they did with O-chul and Lien. Were they stuffed under a snowbank? Stashed somewhere in the bugbear village? Transported to another plane?

[understatement]

KASJHDJKASHDKJ BASKJDHJKASHDJAHSDJHASK

So first:

I cheered nonverbally when Team Evil showed up because, you know, Team Evil. Glad to see them at the end of their line now.

Secondly --

if that's Serini, I swear that would be so awesome -- like how long has this person been watching all of these characters? Maybe they even eavesdropped on Lien talking about the OOTS coming soon. I don't think it'd be the iFCC, though, since they seem at least Neutral.

Yeah, this cliffhanger was amazing, and the last panel was both...I don't know, sinister? Contemplative? It was just pure awesome.

[Aeliren]

Well, this is it. The beginning of the end.

I mean, there's still at least 5 years left minimum, so it's not like it's over, but when it is... it's gonna be the end of an era. But hey, all good things must come to an end.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Oh no.

Memo to myself: next time I DM a game have agents of the big bad pretend to be worried about the big bad noticing them so the players let their guard down.

Not saying that's what's happening here, mind, just making a note.

[Malfarian]

Why is O-Chul still injured? Wasn't he hurt days ago?

[Quinton250]

Remember that the illusion at Girard’s gate was triggered by code words, one of which was Soon? Lien says “soon-ish” two panels before the attack occurs, coincidence? We also know Serini took Girard’s bet about Soon interfering with the other gates. Girard tried to kill Soon through his illusion being triggered, perhaps Serini simply instructed her magically triggered followers to subdue the interferers and bring them to her? The fact that the ambushers found Paladins when being summoned would line up with interference from Soon as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

... Serini arranged for some extra-planar creatures to be conjured into existence as part of her defence.

Something like a Contingency or a Glyph of Warding spell?

----------------------------------------------

1. I will make the guess that this is not the IFCC, nor their agents.

2. The "existing" (last panel) points to some creautre that relies on magic to exist - something like an invisible stalker, but more likely a variation on that monster - but the two different colors of speech bubbles raises so many question that I am not sure where to start.

3. Point: not only are the Paladins being lifted up by the invisible creature who calls "green voice" Boss, but their weapons are being lifted with them. These creatures want O-Chul and Lien alive, and maybe even have further use for them, but they need to be removed from this location for ... reasons.

a. My guess: this faction (number 8 or 9) does not want Xykon interrupted.
b. They are interested in seeing the gate found and the ritual to open it begun.
c. And then, this faction makes their move.

4. Art commentary:

I like how (in the last panel) the size of the rift is depicted, and its depth, and its shape. I then went back to the earlier panels and find that the cliff is down in the rift, but at the upper parts of it. This gives me a sense of how deep the rift is, and how dangerous the OP is/was for Lien and O'Chul.

Lien says: "How do you out-paladin me even while unconscious?"
That made me grin.
I also love how she blocked the first dart with her spear.
She's a darned good paladin! (While I liked her character already just fine, the GDGU Lien origin story made me like this character even more. Go Lien Go!)

[TRH]

I'm actually leaning against the IFCC the more I think about this. They said Sabine would return with a vessel, not two, and neither of those speech bubbles resembled hers from what I recall. So maybe Serini and apprentice indeed, I couldn't say.

Also, had this gone on for just one more strip, all of you guys would need to bow down to my amazing predictive abilities, because we are 59 strips after 1130, when I predicted we'd have 60 strips left in the book. So close.

[Pampukin]

Some random thoughts:

If the newcomers are somehow related to Serini's gate protection scheme, I can't figure out why they haven't interfered with Xykon et al.

What kind of summoned/created creatures would use poison delivered by dart?

Pixies come to mind, they have tiny nondamaging arrows that put people to sleep, they should be stronger than average pixies tho, cause the save for those is only a 15 fort dc, and the paladins should cakewalk those. It did say that the poison was lethal, but that might have been a ruse to force Lien to disarm.

I keep thinking fey are a likely faction that hasnt shown up yet and would fit thematically (winter court, north pole, invisible disarming creatures that the paladins wouldnt trust inmediatly that might have a horse in this race, as they arent outsiders, but dont have souls, so they might go down with the world if it ends.)

[Quizatzhaderac]

Why did they wait for Lien to get and reply to the sending? O-chul and Lien have been there a long time already.

Maybe that's significant, but I think maybe Rich just wanted to avoid having two scenes.

Imagine panels 1-7 as one scene. Some time passed (including the not-so-interesting end of that conversation, where they just speculate about questions the audience knows the answers to).

The rest of the comic is another scene (hours or days later), set in motion by the IFC, or Hell, or the mysterious ninth faction.

[SaintRidley]

Why is O-Chul still injured? Wasn't he hurt days ago?

Those are scars.

[The Pilgrim]

About the identity of those two gentlemenfolk, we know that the full story behind the Scribbels has to be revealed, and the source can only be one of them. Or, at least, of their faction. Serini, or her people, have to show up. And those two guys seem up for the job.

Their speech bubble pattern matchs that of monsters, and we know Serini populated the defenses of Kraagor with the toughest monsters available on the Manual. So I bet those two are half-something-mounstruously-cool.

[magwaaf]

2 months??? 2 months??? nooooooo! i need anoter comic to kill time!

well i guess... time to speculate on who are those voices?

[RMS Oceanic]

I lean towards them being entities tied to the true nature of the Snarl, much like the world within the world, or maybe a byproduct of the rifts or gates themselves, with a semi-long shot of being allied with Serini and/or her descendants. I definitely don't think they're directly allied to any faction who's been shown on page in at least the last two books.

Which means yes, Samantha is about to have her revenge.