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    Kobold

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    Default Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Every now and again I find myself looking at the Adept class. I donít know why, maybe because it sort of functions as a grungy low-magic caster that breaks away from the high sorcery the player classes end up with - though the obvious answer to low-magic casting seems to be e6.

    Anyway, I was looking at the class again, and again looking at how it somewhat inexplicably ended up in Tier 4 in our newest tier list by the merits of its spell list. The list certainly isnít terrible, but the progression and spells per day really hurt. It got me thinking, would simply ham-fisting more spells per day into the class make it measure up to the classes in the higher tiers?

    Say you gave it the Sorcererís additional spell per day per level per spell level, and then on top of that you gave it a cap of 10 (so at level 10 it would have 10 1st level spells per day, 7 2nd level spells per day, and 2 3rd level spells). How far could that push it up? Would it need more adjustment beyond that to break through?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Lots more spell slots per day like that are something that IMO can push it to the very upper end of Tier 4, because of the gain in versatility. It's still a class with no actual class features and with a pathetically small spell list mostly suited for NPC support. If you give it all the extra spell slots and, say, one pick from a base class' spell list as a spell known per level, you could make it easily Tier 3. That's riding on the merits of other classes though. That way it can be a good base for PrCs later on, and even a good pick for companions because of the freedom to use low-level spells from different sources. You can limit the picks to the Cleric spell list if you don't want to deal with shenanigans, then it'd be on the bottom end of Tier 3.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Thatís an interesting idea, and actually reminds me of a homebrew I worked on a little while ago.
    What if in addition to the extra slots, it was a fixed-list spontaneous caster? Add in an extra divine spell from any class list at the gain of every new spell level and itís starting to sound playable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Clearly there exists some number of spell slots where they would go up in the rankings, since, like, imagine if they had 100 spell slots. The question is where exactly the line is. I think it's not a super interesting question, though, to be honest. It's still an NPC class that isn't intended to be balanced for PCs.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Clearly there exists some number of spell slots where they would go up in the rankings, since, like, imagine if they had 100 spell slots. The question is where exactly the line is. I think it's not a super interesting question, though, to be honest. It's still an NPC class that isn't intended to be balanced for PCs.
    I agree itís not particularly interesting since regardless of tier, an Adept with more slots still probably wouldnít be particularly fun to play. But the question of using slots exclusively to find the tiering line is an intellectual curiosity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    I think adept is better than suggested. Its level 1s are pretty poor. But level 2 has some very solid adventuring spells. Level 3 has Animate Dead, which is situationally very strong. And 4 includes polymorph. They get additional spells in some 3.0 sources (MotW, ToB, DotF) as well as c champion. They can presumably use vile/exalted spells. And Eberron gives an acf which gives them a domain, so that opens lots of doors. The real pain is their progression and spells per day. I think as a full list caster with bard spell progression they would be tier 3.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-12-04 at 03:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I think adept is better than suggested. Itís level 1s are pretty poor. But level 2 has some very solid adventuring spells. Level 3 has Animate Dead, which is situationally very strong. And 4 includes polymorph. They get additional spells in some 3.0 sources (MotW, ToB, DotF) as well as c champion. They can presumably use vile/exalted spells. And Eberron gives an acf which gives them a domain, so that opens lots of doors. The real pain is their progression and spells per day. I think as a full list caster with bard spell progression they would be tier 3.
    Versatile Spellcaster to convert 1st level spells to 2nd+ sounds worthwhile.
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I think adept is better than suggested. Its level 1s are pretty poor. But level 2 has some very solid adventuring spells. Level 3 has Animate Dead, which is situationally very strong. And 4 includes polymorph. They get additional spells in some 3.0 sources (MotW, ToB, DotF) as well as c champion. They can presumably use vile/exalted spells. And Eberron gives an acf which gives them a domain, so that opens lots of doors. The real pain is their progression and spells per day. I think as a full list caster with bard spell progression they would be tier 3.
    ToB buffed them? Weird. Which Eberron book gave them a domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Versatile Spellcaster to convert 1st level spells to 2nd+ sounds worthwhile.
    Only works if you actually convert them to a spont caster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Adept Alternate Class Features:

    Familiar Ė Dragon 280, p60 - Alternative starting familiars. (3.0ED)

    Familiar Ė Dragon 323, p88 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)

    Familiar Ė Dragon 341, p96 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)

    Familiar - Dragon 348, p88 - Unfamiliar territory: focus caster; (arcane reabsorbtion isn't valid as it specifically calls out arcane spells). (3.5ED)

    Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 Ė Shadow Kinship: The goblins of Grodd are not harmed by the touch of the creatures called shadows. Furthermore, an adept of Grodd can rebuke or command shadows as a cleric of the same level. (3.0ED)

    Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 - The Iron One: possibly an aspect of a goblin deity. Internet speculation has it being Maglubiyet, the god of goblins and hobgoblins. Domains are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Trickery.

    Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p90-91 Ė Alternate spell list. (3.0ED)

    Kobold - Races of the Dragon, p48 - Alternate spell list: Swap animal trance and daylight with lesser restoration and create food & water, respectively. (3.5ED)

    More Spells for Adepts sidebar - Masters of the Wild, p81 - Additional spells from Defenders of the Faith, Masters of the Wild, Tome and Blood. (3.0ED)

    Religious Adept Ė Eberron Campaign Setting, p256 Ė Add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)

    Religious Urban Adept Ė Sharn: City of Towers, p167 Ė Alternate spell list, add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)

    Urban Adept Ė Sharn: City of Towers, p167 Ė Alternate spell list. (3.5ED)

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Additional Spells - (CC-Complete Champion)
    2 - Bewildering Substitution - CC, p116
    2 - Bewildering Visions - CC, p116
    2 - Interfaith Blessing - CC, p123
    4 - Lesser Spell Turning - Mintiper's Chapbook Part 10 (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/artic...mc/mc20020130a)
    5 - Bewildering Mischance - CC, p116


    eTools Adept Spell List:
    1 - restful slumber - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
    4 - dream walk - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
    4 - manifest desire - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
    4 - manifest nighmare - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
    5 - dreaming puppet - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat

    5 - call forth the beast - HH - corrupt spell


    Lords of Madness, and many online adept spell lists:
    2 - invoke the cerulean sign - LOM - "its magic is nearly universal and can be mastered by all spellcasting classes"


    More Spells for Adepts sidebar, Masters of the Wild, p81 (DotF-Defenders of the Faith, MotW-Masters of the Wild, TaB-Tome and Blood):
    0 - dawn (MotW) - SpC, p59
    1 - hawkeye (MotW) - SpC, p110
    1 - lesser cold orb (TaB) - SpC, p151, (orb of cold, lesser)
    1 - scarecrow (MotW) -
    2 - choke (TaB) -
    2 - decomposition (MotW) - SpC, p61
    2 - owl's wisdom (TaB) - PH, p259
    3 - beastmask (DotF) -
    3 - embrace the wild (MotW) - SpC, p79
    3 - enhance familiar (TaB) - SpC, p82
    4 - false bravado (MotW) -
    4 - languor (MotW) - SpC, p130
    4 - weather eye (DotF) - SpC, p238
    5 - big sky (MotW) -
    5 - ghostform (TaB) - SpC, p103


    Any prepared spellcaster who meets the alignment requirements:
    sanctified spells - BoED
    corrupt spells - BoVD, HH - (see call forth the beast, above)
    Last edited by thorr-kan; 2019-12-04 at 10:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    ToB buffed them? Weird. Which Eberron book gave them a domain?
    I think he means Tome and Blood, not Book of 9 Swords. Though I could be wrong.

    See above for Eberron goodness.

    Do adepts qualify for Initiate and Devotion feats?

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by thorr-kan View Post
    I think he means Tome and Blood, not Book of 9 Swords. Though I could be wrong.

    See above for Eberron goodness.

    Do adepts qualify for Initiate and Devotion feats?
    Classes linked to a deity, such as favored soul, can take initiate feats as if they were clerics; however, adept is not such a class.

    Domain feats (AKA "Devotion feats") can be taken by anyone, including adepts.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    It certainly sounds like a fun concept to play, a spam caster armed with lots of low level spells. A bit like a mystic theurge but with less of a single obvious point in its progression where it's super behind the curve. It might also be a nice change of pace for the dm, it makes the caster more like the martial classes in terms of predictability, the party might keep following the plot until a much higher level than with a proper full caster present.
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    I think a good progression to use would be the duskblades, the adepts list is pretty solid by itself with direct damage, battle field control and save or dies.
    Last edited by Lans; 2019-12-08 at 03:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    To answer this question you have to remember what tier 3 and tier 4 means.

    Tier 3 means that a class is either pretty good at a lot of things or really good at a few things.
    Tier 4 means that a class is either tolerable at a lot of things or really good at a few things.

    The adept is tier 4 because he is tolerable at a lot of things. He can be the parties healer, he can buff, debuff, he can even do some damage and divination. He just can't do any of it at a competetive level because he lacks class features and his only a 6-grade caster. So while giving the adept more spells per day would certainly make him stronger, it still wouldn't push him into tier 3 because even if he had twice the amount of spells, the things he could do with those spells would pale in comparison to what another character could do. What the adept needs is more power, not more flexibility.
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystral View Post
    To answer this question you have to remember what tier 3 and tier 4 means.

    Tier 3 means that a class is either pretty good at a lot of things or really good at a few things.
    Tier 4 means that a class is either tolerable at a lot of things or really good at a few things.

    The adept is tier 4 because he is tolerable at a lot of things. He can be the parties healer, he can buff, debuff, he can even do some damage and divination. He just can't do any of it at a competetive level because he lacks class features and his only a 6-grade caster. So while giving the adept more spells per day would certainly make him stronger, it still wouldn't push him into tier 3 because even if he had twice the amount of spells, the things he could do with those spells would pale in comparison to what another character could do. What the adept needs is more power, not more flexibility.
    Honestly, I think if his only 4th level spell was Polymorph you would hit T3 if you could cast it enough and it wasnít delayed so far. Adept has a very good list. Especially after the expansions discussed above. Itís just that they donít get to cast their first 1/day Polymorph until level 12.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystral View Post
    To answer this question you have to remember what tier 3 and tier 4 means.

    Tier 3 means that a class is either pretty good at a lot of things or really good at a few things.
    Tier 4 means that a class is either tolerable at a lot of things or really good at a few things.

    The adept is tier 4 because he is tolerable at a lot of things. He can be the parties healer, he can buff, debuff, he can even do some damage and divination. He just can't do any of it at a competetive level because he lacks class features and his only a 6-grade caster. So while giving the adept more spells per day would certainly make him stronger, it still wouldn't push him into tier 3 because even if he had twice the amount of spells, the things he could do with those spells would pale in comparison to what another character could do. What the adept needs is more power, not more flexibility.
    That's definitely not what the tiers mean. And you really don't think boosting adept spells to 200 per level per day would improve its tiering?

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    And you really don't think boosting adept spells to 200 per level per day would improve its tiering?
    Maybe as a healbot that never runs out, though wands can already cover that role. But in combat, one can still only cast one spell per turn. And when that spell is from the adept spell list at the level you get those spells.. you're just not spending those turns doing something very powerfull. You're contributing, but not shining. Definition of tier 4.

    If you really think that unlimited uses can result in a raise of tiers, let me remind you of the warlock, whose entire thing is having unlimited uses of his limited ability list and who is firmly in tier 4.

    Your post actually reminds me of a character from OOTS. Tsukiko, a mystic theurge who once boasted that she has more spells than her enemies have hitpoints. While that may be true, as redcloak reminded her while killing her, quantity can be beaten by quality.
    Last edited by Mystral; 2019-12-08 at 04:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Honestly, I think if his only 4th level spell was Polymorph you would hit T3 if you could cast it enough and it wasnít delayed so far. Adept has a very good list. Especially after the expansions discussed above. Itís just that they donít get to cast their first 1/day Polymorph until level 12.
    Thats the thing. They get good stuff, but at a level when it's not so good anymore. To get into tier 3, they need to either get their spells at a point where its relevant or get other features that make their spells relevant.
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystral View Post
    Maybe as a healbot that never runs out, though wands can already cover that role. But in combat, one can still only cast one spell per turn. And when that spell is from the adept spell list at the level you get those spells.. you're just not spending those turns doing something very powerfull. You're contributing, but not shining. Definition of tier 4.

    If you really think that unlimited uses can result in a raise of tiers, let me remind you of the warlock, whose entire thing is having unlimited uses of his limited ability list and who is firmly in tier 4.

    Your post actually reminds me of a character from OOTS. Tsukiko, a mystic theurge who once boasted that she has more spells than her enemies have hitpoints. While that may be true, as redcloak reminded her while killing her, quantity can be beaten by quality.
    Warlocks are T3, and the adept spell list is better than the warlock invocation list.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystral View Post
    Thats the thing. They get good stuff, but at a level when it's not so good anymore. To get into tier 3, they need to either get their spells at a point where its relevant or get other features that make their spells relevant.
    Precisely. The Adept's problem isn't that it's list is terrible. Level-for-level, it's pretty decent, if shallow. You get Sleep, Web, Animate Dead, Polymorph, and Wall of Stone, plus a decent utility suite. You could make a Sorcerer who picked only spells Adepts get, and that would be a decent Sorcerer (until you started picking spells at levels where Adepts don't get any). The problem is that the Adept progression is terrible. They get Animate Dead at 8th level. They get Polymorph 12th level. That's really not enough. I mean, maybe Polymorph is, but at that point you're just ranking Polymorph and the Paladin moves up for Sword of the Arcane Order.
    Last edited by NigelWalmsley; 2019-12-08 at 05:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Warlocks are T3, and the adept spell list is better than the warlock invocation list.
    Warlock is T4.

    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_System
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    Precisely. The Adept's problem isn't that it's list is terrible. Level-for-level, it's pretty decent, if shallow. You get Sleep, Web, Animate Dead, Polymorph, and Wall of Stone, plus a decent utility suite. You could make a Sorcerer who picked only spells Adepts get, and that would be a decent Sorcerer (until you started picking spells at levels where Adepts don't get any). The problem is that the Adept progression is terrible. They get Animate Dead at 8th level. They get Polymorph 12th level. That's really not enough. I mean, maybe Polymorph is, but at that point you're just ranking Polymorph and the Paladin moves up for Sword of the Arcane Order.
    I think that pushing adept isn't very hard. The problem is that you can easily push him too far and into T2.

    I think that the best way would be to make him similiar to the bard. Give him one more spell level with the same number of spell slots, just with prepared casting and having all spells on the list available. Throw in another good save (I'd suggest fort), increase his hit dice by one, his bab progression to medium and give him a smattering of "songs" to represent tribal prayers and magic. Also, give him advanced learning and let him select a few spells from the cleric spell list to add to his own spell list. And maybe also expand his spell list in general a bit, perhaps with some druid spells.
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystral View Post
    I think that pushing adept isn't very hard. The problem is that you can easily push him too far and into T2.

    I think that the best way would be to make him similiar to the bard. Give him one more spell level with the same number of spell slots, just with prepared casting and having all spells on the list available. Throw in another good save (I'd suggest fort), increase his hit dice by one, his bab progression to medium and give him a smattering of "songs" to represent tribal prayers and magic. Also, give him advanced learning and let him select a few spells from the cleric spell list to add to his own spell list. And maybe also expand his spell list in general a bit, perhaps with some druid spells.
    Or give him wizard spell progression and change nothing else. Any spell slots 6+ can only be domain spells or lower level spells (potentially with metamagic)

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystral View Post
    Where you been duder?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Or give him wizard spell progression and change nothing else. Any spell slots 6+ can only be domain spells or lower level spells (potentially with metamagic)
    At that point you can just play the witch from the DMG.
    Last edited by Mystral; 2019-12-09 at 03:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Hey, if you guys want to redefine something every year, more power to you.
    Thanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystral View Post
    If you really think that unlimited uses can result in a raise of tiers, let me remind you of the warlock, whose entire thing is having unlimited uses of his limited ability list and who is firmly in tier 4.
    .
    I'm pretty sure that if the warlock was as limited in its invocation use as an adept is in its spells, that his tier would drop like a rock.

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