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2019-12-03, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Every now and again I find myself looking at the Adept class. I don’t know why, maybe because it sort of functions as a grungy low-magic caster that breaks away from the high sorcery the player classes end up with - though the obvious answer to low-magic casting seems to be e6.
Anyway, I was looking at the class again, and again looking at how it somewhat inexplicably ended up in Tier 4 in our newest tier list by the merits of its spell list. The list certainly isn’t terrible, but the progression and spells per day really hurt. It got me thinking, would simply ham-fisting more spells per day into the class make it measure up to the classes in the higher tiers?
Say you gave it the Sorcerer’s additional spell per day per level per spell level, and then on top of that you gave it a cap of 10 (so at level 10 it would have 10 1st level spells per day, 7 2nd level spells per day, and 2 3rd level spells). How far could that push it up? Would it need more adjustment beyond that to break through?
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2019-12-04, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Lots more spell slots per day like that are something that IMO can push it to the very upper end of Tier 4, because of the gain in versatility. It's still a class with no actual class features and with a pathetically small spell list mostly suited for NPC support. If you give it all the extra spell slots and, say, one pick from a base class' spell list as a spell known per level, you could make it easily Tier 3. That's riding on the merits of other classes though. That way it can be a good base for PrCs later on, and even a good pick for companions because of the freedom to use low-level spells from different sources. You can limit the picks to the Cleric spell list if you don't want to deal with shenanigans, then it'd be on the bottom end of Tier 3.
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2019-12-04, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Denver, CO
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
That’s an interesting idea, and actually reminds me of a homebrew I worked on a little while ago.
What if in addition to the extra slots, it was a fixed-list spontaneous caster? Add in an extra divine spell from any class list at the gain of every new spell level and it’s starting to sound playable.
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2019-12-04, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Clearly there exists some number of spell slots where they would go up in the rankings, since, like, imagine if they had 100 spell slots. The question is where exactly the line is. I think it's not a super interesting question, though, to be honest. It's still an NPC class that isn't intended to be balanced for PCs.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-12-04, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Denver, CO
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
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2019-12-04, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
I think adept is better than suggested. Its level 1s are pretty poor. But level 2 has some very solid adventuring spells. Level 3 has Animate Dead, which is situationally very strong. And 4 includes polymorph. They get additional spells in some 3.0 sources (MotW, ToB, DotF) as well as c champion. They can presumably use vile/exalted spells. And Eberron gives an acf which gives them a domain, so that opens lots of doors. The real pain is their progression and spells per day. I think as a full list caster with bard spell progression they would be tier 3.
Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-12-04 at 03:10 PM.
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2019-12-04, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2019-12-04, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Denver, CO
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
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2019-12-04, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Adept Alternate Class Features:
Familiar – Dragon 280, p60 - Alternative starting familiars. (3.0ED)
Familiar – Dragon 323, p88 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)
Familiar – Dragon 341, p96 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)
Familiar - Dragon 348, p88 - Unfamiliar territory: focus caster; (arcane reabsorbtion isn't valid as it specifically calls out arcane spells). (3.5ED)
Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 – Shadow Kinship: The goblins of Grodd are not harmed by the touch of the creatures called shadows. Furthermore, an adept of Grodd can rebuke or command shadows as a cleric of the same level. (3.0ED)
Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 - The Iron One: possibly an aspect of a goblin deity. Internet speculation has it being Maglubiyet, the god of goblins and hobgoblins. Domains are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Trickery.
Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p90-91 – Alternate spell list. (3.0ED)
Kobold - Races of the Dragon, p48 - Alternate spell list: Swap animal trance and daylight with lesser restoration and create food & water, respectively. (3.5ED)
More Spells for Adepts sidebar - Masters of the Wild, p81 - Additional spells from Defenders of the Faith, Masters of the Wild, Tome and Blood. (3.0ED)
Religious Adept – Eberron Campaign Setting, p256 – Add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)
Religious Urban Adept – Sharn: City of Towers, p167 – Alternate spell list, add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)
Urban Adept – Sharn: City of Towers, p167 – Alternate spell list. (3.5ED)
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2019-12-04, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Additional Spells - (CC-Complete Champion)
2 - Bewildering Substitution - CC, p116
2 - Bewildering Visions - CC, p116
2 - Interfaith Blessing - CC, p123
4 - Lesser Spell Turning - Mintiper's Chapbook Part 10 (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/artic...mc/mc20020130a)
5 - Bewildering Mischance - CC, p116
eTools Adept Spell List:
1 - restful slumber - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - dream walk - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - manifest desire - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - manifest nighmare - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
5 - dreaming puppet - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
5 - call forth the beast - HH - corrupt spell
Lords of Madness, and many online adept spell lists:
2 - invoke the cerulean sign - LOM - "its magic is nearly universal and can be mastered by all spellcasting classes"
More Spells for Adepts sidebar, Masters of the Wild, p81 (DotF-Defenders of the Faith, MotW-Masters of the Wild, TaB-Tome and Blood):
0 - dawn (MotW) - SpC, p59
1 - hawkeye (MotW) - SpC, p110
1 - lesser cold orb (TaB) - SpC, p151, (orb of cold, lesser)
1 - scarecrow (MotW) -
2 - choke (TaB) -
2 - decomposition (MotW) - SpC, p61
2 - owl's wisdom (TaB) - PH, p259
3 - beastmask (DotF) -
3 - embrace the wild (MotW) - SpC, p79
3 - enhance familiar (TaB) - SpC, p82
4 - false bravado (MotW) -
4 - languor (MotW) - SpC, p130
4 - weather eye (DotF) - SpC, p238
5 - big sky (MotW) -
5 - ghostform (TaB) - SpC, p103
Any prepared spellcaster who meets the alignment requirements:
sanctified spells - BoED
corrupt spells - BoVD, HH - (see call forth the beast, above)Last edited by thorr-kan; 2019-12-04 at 10:33 PM.
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2019-12-04, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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2019-12-05, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-12-05, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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- Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
It certainly sounds like a fun concept to play, a spam caster armed with lots of low level spells. A bit like a mystic theurge but with less of a single obvious point in its progression where it's super behind the curve. It might also be a nice change of pace for the dm, it makes the caster more like the martial classes in terms of predictability, the party might keep following the plot until a much higher level than with a proper full caster present.
The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!
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2019-12-08, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
I think a good progression to use would be the duskblades, the adepts list is pretty solid by itself with direct damage, battle field control and save or dies.
Last edited by Lans; 2019-12-08 at 03:00 AM.
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2019-12-08, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
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- Siebenwind
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
To answer this question you have to remember what tier 3 and tier 4 means.
Tier 3 means that a class is either pretty good at a lot of things or really good at a few things.
Tier 4 means that a class is either tolerable at a lot of things or really good at a few things.
The adept is tier 4 because he is tolerable at a lot of things. He can be the parties healer, he can buff, debuff, he can even do some damage and divination. He just can't do any of it at a competetive level because he lacks class features and his only a 6-grade caster. So while giving the adept more spells per day would certainly make him stronger, it still wouldn't push him into tier 3 because even if he had twice the amount of spells, the things he could do with those spells would pale in comparison to what another character could do. What the adept needs is more power, not more flexibility.Thanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.
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2019-12-08, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Honestly, I think if his only 4th level spell was Polymorph you would hit T3 if you could cast it enough and it wasn’t delayed so far. Adept has a very good list. Especially after the expansions discussed above. It’s just that they don’t get to cast their first 1/day Polymorph until level 12.
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2019-12-08, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-12-08, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Siebenwind
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
And you really don't think boosting adept spells to 200 per level per day would improve its tiering?
If you really think that unlimited uses can result in a raise of tiers, let me remind you of the warlock, whose entire thing is having unlimited uses of his limited ability list and who is firmly in tier 4.
Your post actually reminds me of a character from OOTS. Tsukiko, a mystic theurge who once boasted that she has more spells than her enemies have hitpoints. While that may be true, as redcloak reminded her while killing her, quantity can be beaten by quality.Last edited by Mystral; 2019-12-08 at 04:56 PM.
Thanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.
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2019-12-08, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Siebenwind
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Thanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.
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2019-12-08, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-12-08, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2019
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Precisely. The Adept's problem isn't that it's list is terrible. Level-for-level, it's pretty decent, if shallow. You get Sleep, Web, Animate Dead, Polymorph, and Wall of Stone, plus a decent utility suite. You could make a Sorcerer who picked only spells Adepts get, and that would be a decent Sorcerer (until you started picking spells at levels where Adepts don't get any). The problem is that the Adept progression is terrible. They get Animate Dead at 8th level. They get Polymorph 12th level. That's really not enough. I mean, maybe Polymorph is, but at that point you're just ranking Polymorph and the Paladin moves up for Sword of the Arcane Order.
Last edited by NigelWalmsley; 2019-12-08 at 05:21 PM.
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2019-12-08, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Siebenwind
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
Warlock is T4.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_SystemThanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.
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2019-12-08, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Siebenwind
Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
I think that pushing adept isn't very hard. The problem is that you can easily push him too far and into T2.
I think that the best way would be to make him similiar to the bard. Give him one more spell level with the same number of spell slots, just with prepared casting and having all spells on the list available. Throw in another good save (I'd suggest fort), increase his hit dice by one, his bab progression to medium and give him a smattering of "songs" to represent tribal prayers and magic. Also, give him advanced learning and let him select a few spells from the cleric spell list to add to his own spell list. And maybe also expand his spell list in general a bit, perhaps with some druid spells.Thanks for Zefir for the custom avatar.
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2019-12-08, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
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2019-12-08, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Denver, CO
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Re: Could Additional Spells Per Day Boost the Adept to Tier 2 or 3?
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2019-12-09, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Siebenwind
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2019-12-09, 03:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Siebenwind
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2019-12-09, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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