Gandalf is not a wizard! And other concerns.

[Willie the Duck]

Wait, the thread suggested that Gandalf was the Ranger? That's new.

As to how he solos a Balor, maybe that artifact/Ring helps? Fire immunity?

Or as others have stated, he could be things on top of the 5th level wizard. Wizard 5/Martial (whichever) 5+ makes the sword make more sense. I think

[Sigreid]

I think basing what Gandalf is on what he does in the books and movies is a mistake. I think his roll in the stories is as a guide, offering a little help here, a little nudge there. He's not supposed to come like a thunderbolt from the heavens. The mortals are supposed to handle the situation themselves. Much like letting your kid get into trouble and maybe offering some advice, but making them get themselves out of it so they don't become dependent.

This is very Merlin style. It most of the stories involving Merlin, he provided just enough help for the knights to be heroes, such as creating an illusion so the enemy would see a larger host than actually took the field so the enemy would hesitate for those who had refused to fight to feel shame that the small number of Arthur's men showed such courage on their behalf and join them.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Gandalf is a 15th level Eldritch Knight. :)/2

Anyway,

Ken

[Snails]

I think basing what Gandalf is on what he does in the books and movies is a mistake. I think his roll in the stories is as a guide, offering a little help here, a little nudge there. He's not supposed to come like a thunderbolt from the heavens. The mortals are supposed to handle the situation themselves. Much like letting your kid get into trouble and maybe offering some advice, but making them get themselves out of it so they don't become dependent.

A bit of aside...

Drawing a comparison to Merlin is a good analogy, as Gandalf when we first meet him seems decidedly Merlin-like down to an inexplicable desire to help a small band of nice dwarves pursue certain death against an unassailable dragon, a dragon that smashed a thousand very well armed dwarves like kindling not all that long ago.*

At first reading, it feels okay because...well... that is exactly the kind of impenetrable mischief <i>Merlin</i> would do to people, handwaving away common sense with vague gibbering of rightness of the cause and rightness of the moment. If you have the gift of prophecy, I guess desperate people will put up with a lot.

But, with the benefit of hindsight, none of this quite makes sense, because we learn that Gandalf does not have a gift of prophecy and it is unclear whether anyone in Middle does or ever did have such a thing. (I guess the Witch King not dying at the hand of any man alive counts for something, but a little hard to judge without more background story on why anyone believed it.)

But getting back to your point, it is Gandalf's role that matters. His role to is help nudge the right people in the right direction, and his own specific abilities are not something to write down in a stat block. And when the moment arrives, he can solo a demon because his deep background makes it his role to do so, so others can complete their story by more normal means.



* A feat that is all the more gobsmacking because The Simarillion specifically mentions heavily armored dwarves with iron masks and iron shields chasing off dragons (plural!) in open battle. So defeating even a small dwarven kingdom in a fair fight where the individual dwarves can charge in to swinging distance rates Smaug the nastiest drake to ever live.

[Damon_Tor]

[QUOTE=Danielqueue1;24293195]Fighting, when a fight is unavoidable what does he use? Is it some reliable cantrips? Firebolt? Ray of frost? Green flame blade? Chill touch? Nope! He pulls out a sword and his staff. And as per the battle of the black gate he is wielding both a longsword and a staff at the same time. Which would require the Dual weilder feat because they are not light weapons. Both use strength as their attack stat barring kensei/hexblade levels. /QUOTE]

It's Tenser's Transformation. Everyone told him it was a bad spell, but then the Balrog showed up and he was all "I got this guys, check out my NEW SPELL".

[HiveStriker]

[QUOTE=Damon_Tor;24295647]

Fighting, when a fight is unavoidable what does he use? Is it some reliable cantrips? Firebolt? Ray of frost? Green flame blade? Chill touch? Nope! He pulls out a sword and his staff. And as per the battle of the black gate he is wielding both a longsword and a staff at the same time. Which would require the Dual weilder feat because they are not light weapons. Both use strength as their attack stat barring kensei/hexblade levels. /QUOTE]

It's Tenser's Transformation. Everyone told him it was a bad spell, but then the Balrog showed up and he was all "I got this guys, check out my NEW SPELL".

LOL. Good one.

Also, something I just realized today when my mind wandered off work... *ahem*

You don't actually need Dual Wielder feat for a gish like Gandalf, at least if you want to use all mechanics of the build you make, and that build has competitive uses of bonus action.

Dual Wielder is useful *only* for AC (which is nice but not hard-selling) and for ability to make a bonus action weapon attack with non-light weapons.
But if you didn't care about that bonus action attack, because you have so many other uses for bonus action already?

There is nothing preventing you in the rules to wield two non-light weapons "normally". You just won't trigger dual-weapon fighting benefit, nothing more.
Which brings another non-detail: if you always wield two weapons for their passive or active abilities (like Staff of Defense), AND YET want to use your spells... For many caster classes this would be a problem!

I circumvented it in my build suggestion, partially, because Swords Bard can use his weapon as focus... For Bard spells. Only.
So actually, if I want to stay coherent, the one feat my build (and most "Gandalf recreation" ones) desperately need is not Dual Wielder but Warcaster!

[ZorroGames]

Having read the original article when it was published it is head shaking that we still have the same discussions with edition variant changes.

JRRT was not Gygax writing a game system to add magic to Chainmail type Combat.

Gygax was not writing an Epic Fantasy work of literary myth.

Gygax took what inspired him (and others have mentioned far more likely sources) and essentially only used LOTR as a selling point for 0D&D/Chainmail.

Not judging Gygax but he was a war gamer who assembled D&D from many sources.

JRRT certainly never seemed to envision LOTR as an inspirational source for a FRPG for so many reasons, including it really was not a thing at that time. Fantasy Gaming Historians can fill in any gaps of knowledge in that last sentence as deemed necessary.

Both have their place but D&D and Gandalf in LOTR have very little in common except possible being Fantasy.

[ZorroGames]

While that was a piece of his point, his last paragraph was a crock, and his title a bigger crock.
1. The Elven Ring of Power on Gandalf's finger got no mention. There are three in the whole world, it's an artifact.

2. He refused to accept that Eldritch Wizardry's balrog was a balrog. He just had waved that. Horse pucky.

3. Sauron as Evil High Priest 12.
Too low, but that analysis was on the right track IMO. EHP was the right direction to head with that. Sauron was at least as strong a demon as Orcus or Demagorgon. I am pretty sure no OD&D level 12 EPH could solo Orcus.
A complete load of rubbish. D&D was built to be D&D, and LoTR wasn't constructed nor written with a game in mind.
Gygax and Arneson came up with spell levels for game and playability reasons. Not a problem.
Seligman was out to lunch in terms of "we need to fix something" but he had no clue what to fix. Answer; nothing. D&D, as a game, was not built as a LoTR emulation. His base premise was flawed.
If you posted that on the internet 40 years later for the first time, it would be a discussion prompt. I seem to recall a few responses in Dragon that took him to task.

As always, well done and insightful.

[Arkhios]

Gandalf is the railroad leading to a plot-device because the dimwitted hobbits couldn't find their own asses without outside help!

[GreyBlack]

So this came out of a discussion spawned from the dozens of "build this character" threads.

Gandalf accross the movies casts various spells and calls himself a wizard, thus people often hail him as the archetypal DnD wizard, but lets look closer.

Part 1 spells used.
-Prestidigitation (cantrip) lights fireworks with his staff and temporarily marks a door.
- light (cantrip) lights his staff in moria
-shield (level 1 abjuration) balrog fight and hobbit movies (canonicity arguable)
-shatter (level 2 evocation) You shall not pass!!! Targeted at bridge. And cracking a rock in the hobbit movies (again canonicity arguable)
-one could argue warding wind in hobbit movies against the necromacer or pyrotechnics to spread fire, but it's been a long time since I've seen that one so I am not sure on specifics. (Level 2 abjuration for warding wind)
-Sending (level 3 evocation) calling an eagle to get off Orthanc. (But what about the butterfly? Flavor text! No way that one moth makes it all the way to the Eagle reliably and quickly enough even with animal messenger)
-dispel magic (level 3 abjuration) "I will draw you Saruman like poison is drawn from a wound! " (King of Rohan) rolled poorly on the first attempt. Rolled better on the second.

So spells up to level 3 all focussing on abjuration and evocation, Let's move on.

Fighting, when a fight is unavoidable what does he use? Is it some reliable cantrips? Firebolt? Ray of frost? Green flame blade? Chill touch? Nope! He pulls out a sword and his staff. And as per the battle of the black gate he is wielding both a longsword and a staff at the same time. Which would require the Dual weilder feat because they are not light weapons. Both use strength as their attack stat barring kensei/hexblade levels.

So what do we know of where strength and intelligence are the primary stats, focus on spells around 3 or less most of the time, have a propensity for abjuation and evocation spells, and spend most of combat using weapons instead of spells?

TL:DR
Conclusion: Gandalf is an eldritch knight!

False. Gandalf is a Solar. He can emit Searing Bursts and blind enemies while still being capable of using a sword. He's also not a human, but a Maia, who are basically demigods in LOTR lore, and so not a PC race.

Also: Aragorn is a Paladin 2/Ranger 3, Legolas and Gimli are Fighters, and Frodo is a commoner.

[Rafaelfras]

He is a Wizard because he say he is.
If you cant stat him correctly its your problem not his

[AMFV]

If you look in the books you'd see he can grow to giant size and also set trees ablaze instantly.

Edit: also in the hobbit he kills half a dozen goblins with a fire blast of some sort.

[GlenSmash!]

Gandalf is the railroad leading to a plot-device because the dimwitted hobbits couldn't find their own asses without outside help!

Now, now, in the books at least Frodo was well learned and wise, and Merry had a really good head on his shoulders. Sam mostly needed confidence.

Pippin of course needed sense smacked into him.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wait, the thread suggested that Gandalf was the Ranger? That's new.

Honestly, I am not sure where I was going with that, so I'll blame the rye whiskey.

Gandalf is the railroad leading to a plot-device because the dimwitted hobbits couldn't find their own asses without outside help!

That also, for LoTR, but for The Hobbit, he was the "get them over the Misty Mountains" guide that sort of worked out.

He is a Wizard because he say he is. If you cant stat him correctly its your problem not his

*cackled, I did*

[Willie the Duck]

Honestly, I am not sure where I was going with that, so I'll blame the rye whiskey.

No worries. I've been sober almost 16 years, but I still get caught posting tired-and-distracted more often then I would like to admit.

[Joe the Rat]

Beautiful coverage here. All the Greatest Hits.

Movie Gandalf: straight up, I would use Bard. He's all speeches and flash, equipped with a Elvish Ring of Awesome Fireness.
More broadly, Druid fits as well (secrets of nature, animal messenger, produce flame/fire seeds), if you ignore the shape changing aspect it picked up somewhere on the way.

Books Gandalf: Bard/Druid still works well, esp. as Font of Lore and More Talky, Less Blasty. Which fits the style of the source material.

Back to Formula: Since G is basically a Celestial in Wotan Drag, Knowledge or Tempest Cleric (or Air/Storm, Knowledge, Travel Domains) gets to some of the I Can't Believe It's Not Odin evoked here. Also, Control Weather.

Joe's 5th Ed take: Aasimar Celestial Warlock, Blade Pact. Likes fire and radiance, weird magic selection, speak with animals, mage armor, protection or dispel to displace mind control, invisibility to sneak amongst the goblins unseen, needs a nap after doing big magics, and pretty much gets to use all the caster magic toys. Sword Pact gets him proficiency in whatever magic weapon he picks up. The Jackson Wizard Duel really could be two 'locks spamming Repelling Blast.

[Witty Username]

Is this movies or books? It matters because of some fireballs and lightning bolts(maybe chain lightning)
Edit: I am of the mind that gandalf is a blade singer as he never wears armor despite using strength weapons.

[Temperjoke]

I like Divine Sorc as the main class for Gandalf, paired up with either a multiclass or feat to account for his combat skill. That would give him access to the assortment of restorative spells we see him using, in addition to his offensive magics. The lack of armor wearing could be accounted for with Mage Armor. Despite him being known as a wizard in the books, he doesn't appear to prepare spells like a wizard. If he was given a Sage background, it would cover how he knows where to find the information he's seeking.