In PF, how would you optimize for soloing Rappan Athuk?

[bundlesandflows]

I'm going through a copy of Rappan Athuk for PF (1e) which looks every bit as brutal as its reputation and am considering if it's even theoretically possible to solo it. The challenges are very much T1-oriented as is and unless you put in a minimal amount of min-max effort you're going to get wrecked.

I'm leaning vaguely towards a not possible stance. I'm barely able to build a character in 3.5e I'm comfortable with sending into Rappan Athuk, and 3.5e has a lot stronger optimization options than PF. That I know of anyways.

[Endarire]

Not being familiar with the source material, we need these questions and perhaps more answered:

-What character creation rules are in use? Starting wealth, starting level, point buy, allowed sources (including 3.x), etc.

-What are the most notable threats this module runner would encounter throughout?

-What constitutes 'soloing?' If the character can use animate dead or planar binding or Leadership or wealth by level to acquire mercenaries/hirelings (who don't take EXP) or some other means of acquiring minions/pets/reinforcements, would that count?

[legomaster00156]

Build a character with at least 12 WIS. Then, use this WIS score to justify them not risking their life in a notoriously difficult dungeon for the slight possibility of leaving rich and alive.

[Rynjin]

What level do you start at? If 1-3, kneejerk reaction says Druid or Summoner, because then at least you have minion(s).

[bundlesandflows]

What character creation rules are in use? Starting wealth, starting level, point buy, allowed sources (including 3.x), etc.

Well, since this is just a mental exercise for me, let's say... starting level 6 (but your character build should be strong at every point through level 20), 25 point-buy (Pathfinder count), WBL. PF material only (since that's where the challenge is—3.5e has a lot of tricks).

-What are the most notable threats this module runner would encounter throughout?

It's a large megadungeon with a lot of variety, so this one's tough. The long and short of it is:
- Fights are not necessarily CR appropriate. It's on the PCs to pick their fights carefully and make sure they don't walk into bad ones--and they need to have contingencies in case they do run into a bad one.
- Environment is horrible and frequently changing. It depends on the level of the dungeon, but in general one can expect something like difficult terrain, then wild magic, then underwater, then the floor is lava, then no teleportation, etc.
- Finding a safe spot to rest is very difficult all the time.
- The enemies are frequently pulling Tucker's kobolds against you, but they're not kobolds.
- SoD traps everywhere. Some are just D without the right skillset, e.g. antimagic'd collapsing tunnel with a hole in the ceiling.
- Loot and info gated behind all sorts of skill checks or utility spells.
- The module punishes players taking poorly calculated risks, incentivizing a very conservative, methodical, and mix-max approach to adventuring.

I frequently hear this module compared to Tomb of Horrors but worse, so make of that what you will. I do recommend picking up a copy of it if you're interested in a tough dungeon to run PCs through.

-What constitutes 'soloing?' If the character can use animate dead or planar binding or Leadership or wealth by level to acquire mercenaries/hirelings (who don't take EXP) or some other means of acquiring minions/pets/reinforcements, would that count?

Again, a mental exercise, so no Leadership and similar abilities. That's just playing with a second, slightly weaker PC. I'm OK with spending wealth on hirelings and pets since that's a drain on a valuable resource. Conjuration/summoning/binding/etc. spells I'm OK with, but many difficult-to-exit environments block their function, so that needs to be planned around.

[Psyren]

In general, if you're soloing any module or campaign your GM should be allowing gestalt rules to give you a fair shake.

Assuming that's off the table, your next best bet is a class that gives you both powerful casting and strong melee presence. While the latter can come from summons or minions, you still want to be able to take a hit or two yourself. I'd recommend Synthesist Summoner (chained), Druid (w/ companion), or Oracle (e.g. Metal or Bones).

[Endarire]

Let's assume an even tougher scenario where you must solo from level 1.

I'm voting Druid with an animal companion. Spend your starting cash on hirelings (especially trapspringers and healers) and armor for your pet. Get a sling so you can toss free rocks you found on the ground.

This is sounding more like World's Largest Dungeon, but many similarities exist.

[tiercel]

Second version of “what do you mean by ‘soloing’?” — are we talking about a character who has a fighting chance to accrue N thousand gold pieces or advance to character level N from the dungeon, or by “solo the dungeon” are we talking more or less 100% completion, including notably the reason you Don’t Go Down The Well and, of course, soloing Orcus because

Spoiler

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ha ha ha ha ha ha HA HAAH HA HA HA HA HA HA

I mean seriously, I only have the 3.5 version but

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you have to show up on the final level naked and your “hello” is a CL 26 blasphemy—if you don’t somehow know that’s literally the first thing that happens, yeah, goodbye.

Also not so much with the summoning on that level. Or teleportation. Or most forms of flight. Or recovering divine spells.

Also Orcus, even maximally powered down, is statted as CR 35 and really, really isn’t encountered alone, leading the module to literally label the encounter “EL: Yes”.

Plus, y’know, all the text about how the final level has never even been reached, the PCs are not supposed to win, complete with a helpful illustration of Orcus and and his crew utterly TPKing a hapless group of adventurers.

[exelsisxax]

Can't be done. There's far too many encounters that are simply punishment, and are simply unsurvivable by any single character with a level where you encounter them. There's magic immunity and AMF fields to screw casters, monsters with insane DR and regeneration on every level, and of course tons of SoDs on top of some flat out no save death spots. The dungeon is intentionally unfair, under-CRing monsters and arbitrarily giving them special qualities in favorable environments because it wants to kill PCs.

[ngilop]

Of course you can solo it.


It is all about how far you want to go with your optimization?

Are you a regular player?

An Optimizing player?

A GiTper?

An advanced GiTPer?


This was a tournament adventure that is designed to make people NOT succeed. But, the honest truth is if you are at GiTPer or higher in tems of optimization it should be laughably easy, after all at that point you are casting 9th level spells at level 1 and early entering some crazy PrCs.

[Kraynic]

Build a character with at least 12 WIS. Then, use this WIS score to justify them not risking their life in a notoriously difficult dungeon for the slight possibility of leaving rich and alive.

I think this answer is about right. I've only played a very small portion of it. There is an introductory dungeon that connects to the main bulk of Rappan Athuk. You start with level 1 characters, and have gnolls between the starting settlement and the entrance. Not too big of a deal, but don't wander around in the woods because there is a dire bear out there somewhere. Every so many minutes of play time in the dungeon you roll for a random encounter. And there are results on the random tables that you don't want to encounter, and you likely don't want anything to randomly show up during a regular encounter. There are multiple ways down through the levels, but when you enter a new level of the dungeon, you don't know what power level of creatures are there until you encounter them. Anything that becomes aware of you will usually have nasty tricks like summoning swarms on you and turning invisible so you are the only available target. The enemies will use flanking, cover, stealth, etc. against you. There will be ability point damage before you have a means to deal with it aside from resting for days. And this was the intro (the group only lasted until we hit level 3).

If you can never be surprised, never totally run out of resources, always notice (and disarm) the traps, and always know when to run away, you might just be able to solo a little bit of RA. That is the thing about soloing... everything is on your dice rolls. With no one to have your back, just a small string of bad luck for you (or good luck for your enemies) and you will be a stain on the floor somewhere. Or maybe not. Maybe your remains will be floating in a gelatinous cube instead. That would keep the dungeon a little more tidy.

[Efrate]

Is there a pf version or you just running the 3.0 version? Iirc the first room has like a dc 30 search to find a switch to stop the room from being a pretty much no save just death, and thats at really low levels (1-3). And it gets worst. Its a meatgrinder, and without TO level stuff you are another pile of hamburger.

An early entry persistomancer of some sort and initiate of mystra with a ton of craft contingent spells and a personal amf that is likely EX somehow might do it. Its the extreme schrodingers wizard scenario. That doesnt come online until late enough usually to matter though.

Barring that months of divination to get as much info per floor as possible, to the level of hand me the module and let me plan for everything might do it.

[Endarire]

From my brief research, Rappan Athuk comes in 3.0, PF, and 5e flavors at least.

Considering the module's length and difficulty, this seems better suited for a video game like Dark Souls.

[zlefin]

How does the leveling process work in it? Milestone leveling or regular XP? If you're solo and it uses regular xp, then once you start leveling you'll end up 4 levels higher than a 4-man party would, which will enable a lot of abilities to come online sooner. Which for a tier 1-2 caster would make a lot of difference with access to the higher level spells.

I don't have it myself to look at. What does it do to prevent you from scouting with summons extensively?
How much does the dungeon regenerate encounters on a same level/force you to keep going?

[Kaiwen]

The lowest difficulty level in Rappan Athuk is level 1C, which is for a party of 6 PCs at level "1-2". 6 level 2 PCs is party level 3.2, according to d20srd's encounter calculator, and 1 level 7 PC is party level 3, so that's probably a good starting point. (I'm not sure Pathfinder has an equivalent, but Pathfinder's probably close enough to 3.5 to equate these.)

And to give a trivial solution, meet Hill.

Spoiler: Hill

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Hill
Elf wizard 3
Traits: Spark of creation
Feats: Craft wondrous item, 2 others
Gear: Mwk tool of Craft(Alchemy), 2950gp

Hill shows up in town one day with his alchemy set, some reagents, and very little else. Every day, he pays his inn fee (-2sp), casts Crafter's Fortune and Bestow Insight (Craft(Alchemy)) on himself, and gets to work earning his 2 magic capital with his Craft(Alchemy) check (take 10 +5int +2circ +3ranks +3prof +5luck +2insight= 30) (-150gp +3magic). He does this for 19 days, after which his funds have dwindled to 96gp, 2sp, and 57 magic capital.

Starting now, every day he spends 50gp and 9 magic capital to craft a 2000gp item which he sells for 1000gp. He does this for 6 days, after which he has 5795gp and 3 magic capital.

He repeats this cycle until he has enough to craft use-activated items of Wall of Iron and Fabricate, after which he uses that to make more money faster.

He continues to upgrade his productivity, and some years/decades/centuries finally he wades into the dungeon with arbitrary save, attack, AC, and skill bonuses.

[legomaster00156]

The lowest difficulty level in Rappan Athuk is level 1C, which is for a party of 6 PCs at level "1-2". 6 level 2 PCs is party level 3.2, according to d20srd's encounter calculator, and 1 level 7 PC is party level 3, so that's probably a good starting point. (I'm not sure Pathfinder has an equivalent, but Pathfinder's probably close enough to 3.5 to equate these.)

And to give a trivial solution, meet Hill.

Spoiler: Hill

Show

Hill
Elf wizard 3
Traits: Spark of creation
Feats: Craft wondrous item, 2 others
Gear: Mwk tool of Craft(Alchemy), 2950gp

Hill shows up in town one day with his alchemy set, some reagents, and very little else. Every day, he pays his inn fee (-2sp), casts Crafter's Fortune and Bestow Insight (Craft(Alchemy)) on himself, and gets to work earning his 2 magic capital with his Craft(Alchemy) check (take 10 +5int +2circ +3ranks +3prof +5luck +2insight= 30) (-150gp +3magic). He does this for 19 days, after which his funds have dwindled to 96gp, 2sp, and 57 magic capital.

Starting now, every day he spends 50gp and 9 magic capital to craft a 2000gp item which he sells for 1000gp. He does this for 6 days, after which he has 5795gp and 3 magic capital.

He repeats this cycle until he has enough to craft use-activated items of Wall of Iron and Fabricate, after which he uses that to make more money faster.

He continues to upgrade his productivity, and some years/decades/centuries finally he wades into the dungeon with arbitrary save, attack, AC, and skill bonuses.

TL;DR, don't go into Rappan Athuk. Just make your living as a nearby magic item merchant for the dumb adventurers who are trying it.

[SaintNick]

Well, since this is just a mental exercise for me, let's say... starting level 6 (but your character build should be strong at every point through level 20), 25 point-buy (Pathfinder count), WBL. PF material only (since that's where the challenge is—3.5e has a lot of tricks).

Since this is a thought experiment, the easiest way would be to abuse the Trompe L’oeil template as a level 5+ wizard with Craft Construct. Given enough time you can simply send an army of epic level gods to do the dungeon for you.

[Kaiwen]

Since this is a thought experiment, the easiest way would be to abuse the Trompe L’oeil template as a level 5+ wizard with Craft Construct. Given enough time you can simply send an army of epic level gods to do the dungeon for you.

While we're on the topic, it should be noted that intelligent magic items are treated as 0HD constructs regardless of any powers they may have, so you can create a Trompe L'oeil of one for a mere 500gp.

Intelligent item powers may include any spell up to 7th level castable at will on the wearer's initiative using the item's actions. This includes fun things like Emergency Force Sphere (Wings of cover for Pathfinder) and Dazing Ball Lightning (dc19 reflex vs daze 10/round). It's like beholder mage, but better!

And that's to say nothing of the base magic items, which you're getting for 1 day of work and 500gp. If your DM rules that you can't buy paintings of exotic magic items, you can make them yourself with Fabricate, or just Henderson them into your starting gear.

[Quertus]

I know nothing about the module, and almost nothing about Pathfinder. However, I do know that Pathfinder has good PC/monster transparency, in that level = CR.

So, play as a monster that ignores death, like a Trompe L’oeil. If there's a time limit, like in World's Largest Dungeon, just have your goal be "destroy the world", and you automatically win in a few weeks.

Or play something with stealth and Earth glide. Sneak through the module, carefully evaluating whether or not you want to engage.

Or… it's like Tomb of Horrors? Beat it the same way - strip mine it from above.

So, to combine all that: be a Trompe L’oeil of a stealthy creature with earth glide, who hires a bunch of peasants to strip mine the place in the hopes of bringing about the apocalypse.

[Zancloufer]

FYI I quickly looked the module up so not entirely sure it's complete contents.

You probably can't. If you consider SURVIVING the fight with Orcus at the end a "complete solo" then maybe. Even then unless you have some way to be immune to Blashphemy (or it's most powerful effects) Orcus straight up just ends the module. Should probably pack Poison, Instant Death, FoM and an evil alignment to even stand a chance in that last room. Not sure how well it would go clearing the rest of the Dungeon but fighting Orcus without taking out his three temples/shrines first is almost suicide.

[Eldonauran]

I am sure it can be done with the right kind of character build and a good bit of luck (and/or luck manipulation). Find a class that gets all of the following:

Lots of skills
Support (buffing) Magic
Decent HD
Self-healing abilities (preferably with multiplicative effects)
Ability to summon and buff monsters
Very low reliance on feats to be effective
Reach tactics (ie, fighting at a decent range, but no real reliance on ranged attacks)
Full BAB or close to it (ie, 3/4 BAB with self-buffs, like arcane pool)

If you can get all of that, you probably could make it a quite deep, provided luck isn't against you the whole time.

[Psyren]

Silence makes you immune to Blasphemy if that helps; there''s also Greater Spell Immunity and Aroden's Spellbane if you're very high level.

[Xervous]

Assuming a single character IS soloing it, what range of levels will said character be at the start and end of each floor? Are the RAW xp rewards insufficient to carry even a party, or are we looking at values that will lead to an inflated level for our soloist?

[Endarire]

Xervous: Rappan Athuk is intended to put 2 parties by its end at level 20 from level 1. I'm totally fine with being ahead of the level curve to compensate for soloing!

[Elkad]

You WILL fail a saving throw that is unsurvivable without party members to support you, and it will happen early.

So minionomancy is the only thing that will work. Lots of minions. And they have to be capable of independent thought, so not a horde of zombies or guard dogs.

[Xervous]

Xervous: Rappan Athuk is intended to put 2 parties by its end at level 20 from level 1. I'm totally fine with being ahead of the level curve to compensate for soloing!

Wonderful! This raises the side question of whether or not our soloist is allowed to go epic. The more important Q is how far ahead this accelerated leveling will place the soloist. Developing a list of the expected soloist level at the start of each floor could go a long way towards assessing the difficulty of each floor.

[Quertus]

Oh, if there's not a time limit… wait… this is Pathfinder. You don't lose XP for crafting. … Is there any way to take advantage of all that XP, other than just getting ahead of the XP curve?

You WILL fail a saving throw that is unsurvivable without party members to support you, and it will happen early.

So minionomancy is the only thing that will work. Lots of minions. And they have to be capable of independent thought, so not a horde of zombies or guard dogs.

And, if you are a Trompe L'oeil, do you care? Is there a time limit? Saves that you won't just shrug and say, "Oh, look. I died again. Guess I know what to look out for next time / better luck next time."?

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EDIT - also, not knowing Pathfinder, is there a good stealthy earth glide creature to solo the module as a Trompe L'oeil of?

EDIT 2 - do Pathfinder Mythic rules make this any easier?

[stack]

EDIT 2 - do Pathfinder Mythic rules make this any easier?

If you have mythic ranks in a non-mythic campaign, you will be much better off. Assuming a caster of some sort, you will basically be able to get whatever spell you want off your list X times a day and in general you will be much harder to kill (depends on rank, of course).

[Endarire]

In Spheres of Power, the Alteration Sphere allows you to transform into a Small/Medium Earth Elemental at level 1 for Earth Glide for 1 minute per level a certain number of times per day. (You can transform into Air/Water/Fire Elementals as well.) You don't automatically get any other abilities, though.

[Sleven]

I'm a 3.5 player, so I can't speak to the details of Pathfinder. But I've never encountered a printed module, campaign, or scenario that I couldn't solo as long as it was required to play by the rules. Judging by some of the comments, that's in doubt. For example, how can they force you to show up to the final place without gear no matter what? Sounds like DM fiat, not the rules or a "challenge". All fair play has counter-play.

Generally for such challenges, when given no information about what to expect, I go with Psion. However, I see no reason I couldn't do this with a bard. If someone wants to run it, I'll do a 3.5 solo run. Could be fun.