Griffon Cohort Questions 3.5

[BentonGrey]

Howdy folks, I am relatively new to D&D, and I'm new to these forums as well, though I've found lots of really helpful resources here while I've been playing. This seems like a great community and a good place to find some guidance, and I hope that y'all will be patient with my ignorance.

I've got a level 13 character, 6 Bard / 2 Fighter / 5 War Chanter, and I'm thinking of taking the Leadership feat to get a really cool griffon cohort. Unfortunately, I'm finding the rules about how monstrous cohorts work a bit confusing. So, my leadership score would be 19, so I could have a 13th level cohort, but the max is two levels lower than me, so 11. I get that.

However, a griffon has a level adjustment of +3, and as I understand it, level adjustment is that figure plus their HD, which for a griffon is 7. So, that would mean that it would start at ECL of 10, right? Which means it could only take one character level. Yet, running a griffon in such a fashion through the really cool monster advancer I found results in a fellow with a CR of only 7, which seems rather low, as I thought CR was supposed to be roughly equivalent to ECL.

I also found a chart from a bestiary which indicated that a griffon would start at 8 instead. (forgive the lack of reference, but apparently I can't post links yet)

So, I'm a bit confused about how this works and what resources I should be using. Would any of y'all be so kind as to provide me with some guidance?

[JNAProductions]

By RAW, you add LA, RHD, and Class Levels to get your ECL.

However, since ECL is supposed to be equal CR, this leads to really, really weird scenarios, like a Vampire (LA+8) being supposed to wreck a Vampire (CR+2) as a PC, even if the PC and Monster are identical.

Now, for some actual HELPFUL advice, I'd take a gander at your table. Are they playing super-optimized god-killing folk? Are they playing low-op Monks? Basically, are you at the top of the pack in terms of power, the bottom, the middle... Depending on where you are relative to the rest of the party, ask your DM for some leniency. If you're lower on the power scale, using CR as a replacement for ECL seems reasonable to me. If you're near the top, I'd just stick to RAW.

[Biggus]

Level adjustments are notoriously inflated for many creatures. The estimates made in this thread tend to be much nearer to balance in my experience. For the Griffon, they suggest a +0 level adjustment: even if that's slightly generous, it should probably be no more than +1. Whether your DM cares about the opinions of people on this board is another matter, of course...

[BentonGrey]

Howdy JNA, thanks for the response! Just for clarification, and once again, forgive my ignorance, RHD is...real hit dice, or something like that? I assume you mean the HD that the monster comes with?

Ha, okay, so I am not just crazy; it really is a bit uneven, then? That's good to know. I'm playing one of the more optimized characters, but we're all playing very epic-style guys. There's been a lot of leniency and homebrew, so I imagine a reasonable adjustment would be okay. Toying with it, I see that the HD do make a big difference. The griffon at CR 10 (with 4 levels of fighter) has 152 HP, while a straight fighter would be lucky to have a 100. I guess that would be a bit unfair. I suppose this is an imperfect system, but then, it's an imperfect world, ha.

[JNAProductions]

RHD is Racial Hit Dice. That's what a monster comes with.

Class Levels ALSO give Hit Dice, so technically you can just express ECL as Hit Dice plus Level Adjustment, but RHD and Class Levels are usually separated for convenience.

[Remuko]

Toying with it, I see that the HD do make a big difference. The griffon at CR 10 (with 4 levels of fighter) has 152 HP, while a straight fighter would be lucky to have a 100. I guess that would be a bit unfair.

Im not sure what you mean here. The Griffon has 7 HD + 4 levels of fighter for ECL 11. an ECL human fighter would have 11 HD in fighter (11d10 + (Con mod x 11). I think the fighter would have about the same hp. If we assume only a 16 con for the human fighter, he could still end up with 143 hp without feats. Though that is max not average. Id assume a lvl 11 fighter has more con than that though. I don't think theres as large a discrepancy as you seem to think.

[BentonGrey]

Thanks for the responses, guys! This is all super helpful.

Biggus, sorry I missed your response there. Interesting! Yeah, that could be a really handy resource. Thanks!

Remuko: Ahh, I see that I messed up the comparison. Well, perhaps it isn't as far off as I thought. Thanks!

So guys, would something like this seem reasonable to y'all? (Created with Clever Orc's Monster Advancer)

Battle Mount Griffon, Fighter 4 CR 10
Always Neutral Large Magical Beast
Init +3 (+3 dex)
AC 25 FF 22 Touch 12
(-1 size, +3 Dex , +8 natural , +5 Mithral chain shirt +1)
HD: 11
HP: 143 (7d10+52, 4d10+31)
Fort +15 Ref +9 Will +6
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
Base Atk +11 Grp +23
Attack: Bite +19 2d6+8
Full Attack: Bite +19 2d6+8, 2 claws +16 1d4+4
Full Attack: Bite +19 2d6+8, 2 claws +16 1d4+4, 2 rakes +16 1d6+4
Space 10 ft. (2 squares) Reach 5 ft. (1 squares)
Abilities Str 27(+8) Dex 17(+3) Con 22(+6) Int 6(-2) Wis 12(+1) Cha 6(-2)
Stat Points Gained From Advancement: 1
Feats: ToughnessB, Improved ToughnessB, Armor Proficiency (Light)B, Armor Proficiency (Medium)B, Armor Proficiency (Heavy)B, Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus(Bite)
Skill Points: 14
Skills: Climb +9, Craft(Trapmaking) -1, Handle Animal -1, Intimidate -1, Jump +9, Listen +2, Ride +4, Spot +2, Swim +9
Gear:
Mithral chain shirt +1 (2250gp) - worn
Total Cost of Gear: 2250gp
Pounce(Ex): If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Darkvision(Ex): 60 ft.
Low-light vision(Ex):
Scent(Ex):
Fighter Bonus Feat(Ex): Gains fighter bonus feat at 1st level and at every even numbered Fighter level.

[Fizban]

However, a griffon has a level adjustment of +3, and as I understand it, level adjustment is that figure plus their HD, which for a griffon is 7. So, that would mean that it would start at ECL of 10, right? Which means it could only take one character level.

That is correct.

Yet, running a griffon in such a fashion through the really cool monster advancer I found results in a fellow with a CR of only 7, which seems rather low, as I thought CR was supposed to be roughly equivalent to ECL.

Nope, CR and ECL are different things. You are most likely confused by the common assertion that an NPC (or even PC) has CR= their level, which is technically true for NPCs, but only as far as rewards go. The Encounter section of the DMG is often misread, but it only refers to parties of PCs fighting monsters or creatures, and there are entire books of pre-made and pre-CR'd creatures that form the body of evidence for what CR means, yet many people disregard this in favor of claiming PC-classed NPCs are actually the default of the system. But they're really not, as anyone finds out the moment they consider PvP or have to massively overlevel their hordes of classed NPCs to challenge the PCs- monsters are intentionally extra tough, and PCs intentionally extra punchy, because that's how the matchup is supposed to go.

Meanwhile many monsters have at-will abilities and defenses a PC is never supposed to have, so level adjustments are made prohibitively large in order to make sure they aren't a problem. It is a crude system, but I don't think I've ever heard of someone using the book's given LA numbers actually have a problem with a character being overpowered (which is the main problem the books are afraid of occurring). It is only ever complaints that they're too weak, which as far as the books are concerned, is a success.

I also found a chart from a bestiary which indicated that a griffon would start at 8 instead. (forgive the lack of reference, but apparently I can't post links yet)

Wouldn't be surprised if you ran into the Pathfinder bestiary and it had slightly different stats.

So, I'm a bit confused about how this works and what resources I should be using. Would any of y'all be so kind as to provide me with some guidance>

All you need is the MM stats and whatever you need for the class you're adding. Note that as a cohort, it is generally expected that your Griffon should be using the same ability score generation as the other PCs (a Griffon's modifiers are +8/+4/+6/-6/+2/-2, the Monster Advancement entry in the MM tells you how to figure that out), though your DM may or may not have you writing their entire character sheet.

As for dealing with the low level- well the thing is, there are two other major sources to compare to here. The first is the Mounts section of the DMG, with alternate paladin mounts, which says that a suitable mount should have CR 3 lower than the rider, or 4 lower if it can fly- of course Paladin mounts get a minimum of +2 HD as well as other abilities, but it's good to keep in mind.

The other is the Dragon Cohort feat from Draconomicon, which is specifically designed to deal with the high level adjustment of dragons when you want to ride a dragon. Dragon Cohort only gives you a cohort, no followers, and it only allows dragons, but in exchange the LA of the dragon is reduced by 3. So whenever someone says they're taking Leadership just so they can have a cool mount, I point them to Dragon Cohort, and suggest the DM give them a version of that feat to match whatever cool mount it is they want. At -3 LA from a dedicated Griffon Cohort version you'd just have the HD and class levels.

By RAW, you add LA, RHD, and Class Levels to get your ECL.

However, since ECL is supposed to be equal CR,

No, no it is not not. That is the entire reason that CR and ECL are different things, otherwise there would just be one thing.

this leads to really, really weird scenarios, like a Vampire (LA+8) being supposed to wreck a Vampire (CR+2) as a PC, even if the PC and Monster are identical.

Because one is a continuous PC with three friends, and the other is a monster that is expected to fight four PCs and then die. Yes, we all know the vampire's LA is really high, and even if you don't agree with it there is a reason. A vampire with full or near full HD compared to the other player is far harder to kill, with defenses the other PCs just can't replicate, and has at-will Dominate Person, among other abilities. That's so huge it only goes one of two ways: the DM doesn't care about or allows you to Dominate everything in sight, and thus the effective LA should be lower, or they do and there really isn't a high enough LA to reflect mind controlling everyone. The book gives it +8, which is a number.

[JNAProductions]

A level 11 Fighter, who becomes a Vampire, is an ECL 19 PC.
A level 11 NPC Fighter who becomes a Vampire is a CR 13 encounter.

According to the DMG, the PC should trounce the NPC, even if they’re identical. A level X PC has, according to the DMG, a 50/50 chance of beating a CR X encounter. Or, it takes eight NPC Vampires to equal one, IDENTICAL PC Vampire, according to the rules.

[Fizban]

A level 11 Fighter, who becomes a Vampire, is an ECL 19 PC.
A level 11 NPC Fighter who becomes a Vampire is a CR 13 encounter.

According to the DMG, the PC should trounce the NPC, even if they’re identical. A level X PC has, according to the DMG, a 50/50 chance of beating a CR X encounter. Or, it takes eight NPC Vampires to equal one, IDENTICAL PC Vampire, according to the rules.

I am not repeating this argument, which I have spent dozens of pages proving with line by line citations in the past. Either you recognize that CR is not based on classed humanoids in 1v1 matchups, or you don't (and when all evidence of "broken" CR comes from those type of matchups, it's pretty obvious which assumption is the problem). Nor am I arguing about the intent of level adjustment or its factoring into the CR system, as it has none. LA is a hack to give DMs some encouragement that they can allow monster PCs at all, if they're careful, not something that is expected to perfectly factor into an already incorrect expectation of how CR works.

(And even this response is only because I refreshed the page to get my edit button to add comments on the supplied advanced statblock).

Moving on.

Battle Mount Griffon, Fighter 4 CR 10
Always Neutral Large Magical Beast
Init +3 (+3 dex)
AC 25 FF 22 Touch 12
(-1 size, +3 Dex , +8 natural , +5 Mithral chain shirt +1)
HD: 11
HP: 143 (7d10+52, 4d10+31)
Fort +15 Ref +9 Will +6
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
Base Atk +11 Grp +23
Attack: Bite +19 2d6+8
Full Attack: Bite +19 2d6+8, 2 claws +16 1d4+4
Full Attack: Bite +19 2d6+8, 2 claws +16 1d4+4, 2 rakes +16 1d6+4
Space 10 ft. (2 squares) Reach 5 ft. (1 squares)
Abilities Str 27(+8) Dex 17(+3) Con 22(+6) Int 6(-2) Wis 12(+1) Cha 6(-2)
Stat Points Gained From Advancement: 1
Feats: ToughnessB, Improved ToughnessB, Armor Proficiency (Light)B, Armor Proficiency (Medium)B, Armor Proficiency (Heavy)B, Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus(Bite)
Skill Points: 14
Skills: Climb +9, Craft(Trapmaking) -1, Handle Animal -1, Intimidate -1, Jump +9, Listen +2, Ride +4, Spot +2, Swim +9
Gear:
Mithral chain shirt +1 (2250gp) - worn
Total Cost of Gear: 2250gp
Pounce(Ex): If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Darkvision(Ex): 60 ft.
Low-light vision(Ex):
Scent(Ex):
Fighter Bonus Feat(Ex): Gains fighter bonus feat at 1st level and at every even numbered Fighter level.

Well right off the bat that CR is wrong- as an associated class for brawler type monsters, Fighter levels and the accompanying elite stats are +1 CR/level, so that should be CR 8 (base 4, +4), with ECL 14 (base 7, +3 LA, +4 levels), which would be reduced to 11 if you use my suggested Griffon Cohort feat instead of Leadership. (edit: can't math if you use the wrong numbers and there's so many to confuse!)

Where's that +8 natural armor coming from? You've not listed a bonus item and the Griffon has +6.

The ability score modifiers for Dex and Wis are wrong, and Strength is starting from a 19, but I'll assume that it's a base 18+1 from the four class levels.

You should have the base feats, plus three discretionary Fighter feats. The armor (and weapon, not that they can wield any) proficiencies are all free. That covers Toughness and Improved Toughness (bold softball choices considering you started with max str and are concerned about your Griffon being too weak), with room for one more. Note that as this character is actually an apparently "pre-existing" elite Griffion Fighter 4 (which you've "attracted" to be your cohort, and which levels by tracking its own xp), it could very well have different feats and skills for its base racial hit die- but as I said, precise generation depends on how the DM wants to run it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unless your DM wants to make an exception, a Griffon is ECL 10 before any class levels are added. That's the rules, regardless of how much sense it makes.

Does it need to be a Griffon? You could pick up Wild Cohort and get a Dire Eagle from Races of Stone. That would treat your level as three lower for its benefits, so it would start with 10 HD total and continue growing stronger as you level up. Animal companions always keep the printed feats and skills, but you could give it a few cross-class ranks in Spellcraft for the Mage Slayer line of feats in Complete Arcane.

[Biggus]

Meanwhile many monsters have at-will abilities and defenses a PC is never supposed to have, so level adjustments are made prohibitively large in order to make sure they aren't a problem. It is a crude system, but I don't think I've ever heard of someone using the book's given LA numbers actually have a problem with a character being overpowered (which is the main problem the books are afraid of occurring). It is only ever complaints that they're too weak, which as far as the books are concerned, is a success.

Except that many monsters with high LAs don't have any special powers that would be problematic in the hands of PCs. In fact, many of them end up being weaker than a single-classed Monk of the same ECL, so weak that they might as well have just not given them a LA at all, because no-one is going to want to play them as written. If that's their definition of a successful system, I have to disagree with them.