The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    Default Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quivering Palm is level 17.... 17 levels til you get something really cool and if you are an open hand monk

    Yes we all know or have heard rangers and monks and maybe rogues are skirmishers

    But rogues and rangers, really because of armor, do not have to throw 4 ASI into stats... and wait til 19th level to finally get a cool feat.

    All three classes are dexterity based, rangers get archery style and sharpshooter is an easy choice and rogues get sneak attack

    I think what monks are missing or need is big strike capability.

    Sure they could select sharpshooter and easily pick up a level of fighter for archery style... but that really isn't a fix or something unique for monks.

    1. Jumping Side Kick

    A monk may use their bonus action and a KI point to focus and strengthen their next attacks, all unarmed strikes made for the monk's next turn are treated as heavy weapons and push their opponent 5ft if they fail a strength saving throw, DC is 8+proficieny+wisdom modifier.

    This prevents using this ability with flurry of blows, but the push allows the monk to move away without an AoO if the push succeeds. Also it will cost a feat for GWM

    2. Flying Side Kick

    At the beginning of their turn, a monk can mark an opponent and can use a bonus action for step of the wind to dash towards this opponent, and they may spend another KI point to make a special attack in place of their normal attack(s). A monk charges an opponent and leaps and attempts to land a devastating kick. If the kick lands, the monk applies their appropriate level in unarmed strike damage and double their monk levels in damage. A monk also adds 3 extra Hit Point of damage for every 10ft they travel in a straight line during their turn towards their marked opponent. The kick also shoves the enemy back 10ft. All opportunity attacks vs the monk as the monk charges are made with disadvantage. If a monk is hit during this charge, they must succeed a dexterity saving throw, DC 8 +1 (for every 10ft traveled) or be tripped. A tripped monk falls prone and their turn is over.

    I just made this one up. You could add in a saving throw for the shove and perhaps allow the monk to stun after this kick also

    Anymore.....................

    Perhaps a spinning kick allowing monks to perform something like whirlwind attack

    Or a leg sweep to multiple opponents instead

    Or a cleave ability with their spinning kick
    Last edited by djreynolds; 2019-12-06 at 03:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Monks, like fighters, get more attacks instead of more powerful attacks.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Monks get stunning strike at level 5, which is usually reckoned to be a pretty cool feature.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    why does everyone think monks need a revamp? From what I've seen they are the most put together class after rogue. Sure, flurry of blows only gives one extra attack, which is kind of weird for something called a flurry? But monks as a whole a pretty powerful. Their bonus action dodge alone can be used pretty well by even a first timer monk.
    They can be really hard to hit if you put your highest scores into your wisdom and dexterity, and since your hit them and don't-touch-me stats are the same stat, you only really need to focus on those two.
    Bottom line, every monk I've ever played or played with has been a powerhouse mobile tank of swift death, don't know why people think of needs a boost, I think we're looking at it to much on paper and not in practice.
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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    I'm just spit balling.

    Something that's fun.

    You know a flying side kick seems cool.

    You know it doesn't have be quivering palm damage.

    Maybe a monk could select a martial art style and this gives something fresh.

    The occasional splash damage is nice. Maybe it 5 ki points for a different maneuver or 4 ki point to enact a tiger stance.

    It just your imagination.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Openhand get all kinds of tricks right off the bat at lv 3. No save removal of reaction is a huge effect. The shove prone and away are great. All of it keying off FoB gives it all good action economy.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    why does everyone think monks need a revamp? From what I've seen they are the most put together class after rogue. Sure, flurry of blows only gives one extra attack, which is kind of weird for something called a flurry? But monks as a whole a pretty powerful. Their bonus action dodge alone can be used pretty well by even a first timer monk.
    They can be really hard to hit if you put your highest scores into your wisdom and dexterity, and since your hit them and don't-touch-me stats are the same stat, you only really need to focus on those two.
    Bottom line, every monk I've ever played or played with has been a powerhouse mobile tank of swift death, don't know why people think of needs a boost, I think we're looking at it to much on paper and not in practice.
    I have the impression that the fact that Wis, Dex, and Con are the most common saves, and are, simultaneously, the 3 main stats of Monks and Rangers, is a boost to those classes that is usually underrated.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I have the impression that the fact that Wis, Dex, and Con are the most common saves, and are, simultaneously, the 3 main stats of Monks and Rangers, is a boost to those classes that is usually underrated.
    While it is true that their three main stats are also the three main saves, monks just plain need too many stats.

    They have to have dex to be effective with their offense especially with unarmed attacks due to the oversight of no good source of unarmed magical modifiers.
    They have a d8 hd and lower ac so they can't let con get too low or they can be fragile.
    They have to have high wisdom for their saves on their best abilities and their ac.

    Heaven forbid you want to try anything that needs another stat like athletics with str or multiclassing something that takes charisma or intelligence.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    While it is true that their three main stats are also the three main saves, monks just plain need too many stats.

    They have to have dex to be effective with their offense especially with unarmed attacks due to the oversight of no good source of unarmed magical modifiers.
    They have a d8 hd and lower ac so they can't let con get too low or they can be fragile.
    They have to have high wisdom for their saves on their best abilities and their ac.

    Heaven forbid you want to try anything that needs another stat like athletics with str or multiclassing something that takes charisma or intelligence.
    The one fix for monks I would propose is to let them use Dex for athletics, at least for grappling and shoving. They are supposed to be the unarmed combat experts, after all.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    The one fix for monks I would propose is to let them use Dex for athletics, at least for grappling and shoving. They are supposed to be the unarmed combat experts, after all.
    Open hand covers that.
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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Open hand covers that.
    It helps (somewhat) with shoving. It does nothing for grappling.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    It helps (somewhat) with shoving. It does nothing for grappling.
    stun making targets automatically fail all Dex and str ST is the real winner. If your DM is making you make a check to grapple a stunned foe I suggest you point out that based in the rules nothing stops an unconscious player from making ablity checks either.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Alterna-grapple rules:

    When you try to grappled a target (in place of an attack as part of an attack actoin), the target must make a dex or str saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + athletics modifier or become grappled.

    As an action they can try to escape. They a str (athletics) or dex (acrobatics) check against the same DC.

    ---

    This removes the "non-reaction reactive check" of grappling.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    why does everyone think monks need a revamp? From what I've seen they are the most put together class after rogue. Sure, flurry of blows only gives one extra attack, which is kind of weird for something called a flurry? But monks as a whole a pretty powerful. Their bonus action dodge alone can be used pretty well by even a first timer monk.
    They can be really hard to hit if you put your highest scores into your wisdom and dexterity, and since your hit them and don't-touch-me stats are the same stat, you only really need to focus on those two.
    Bottom line, every monk I've ever played or played with has been a powerhouse mobile tank of swift death, don't know why people think of needs a boost, I think we're looking at it to much on paper and not in practice.
    Early on they're cool and effective enough, but once they're higher level there's not really item support for unarmed damage, so while your firsts are magic, you'll be missing +1~+3 bonuses on weapons. Homebrew really helps out here.

    Their AC isn't bad at first, but scales slowly. It's enough that you can reasonably ignore small mook-like enemies, but you're still taking 40~60% of the hits from appropriate enemies at each level unless you patient defense. At least here though you can get bracers of defense or cloak of protection to help out, but still, you can't ignore con.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Early on they're cool and effective enough, but once they're higher level there's not really item support for unarmed damage, so while your firsts are magic, you'll be missing +1~+3 bonuses on weapons. Homebrew really helps out here.

    Their AC isn't bad at first, but scales slowly. It's enough that you can reasonably ignore small mook-like enemies, but you're still taking 40~60% of the hits from appropriate enemies at each level unless you patient defense. At least here though you can get bracers of defense or cloak of protection to help out, but still, you can't ignore con.
    I think AL way of handling gear has a large portion of the blame on how monks are viewed. They practically brought back the magic item treadmill of 3.X but didn't consider it in balance of the game because they say that magical items are optional.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    If you actually look at the damage output of a Monk vs a Rogue you will find that even with SA a Rogue doesn't outdamage extra attacks that a Monk gets. The monk doesn't even have to use Ki up until level 13 in order to keep pace damage wise with a Rogue.


    Realistically apart for the 4E monk the only change I would be tempted to make is to allow the Monk to use Dex instead of Str for athletics checks.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    If you actually look at the damage output of a Monk vs a Rogue you will find that even with SA a Rogue doesn't outdamage extra attacks that a Monk gets. The monk doesn't even have to use Ki up until level 13 in order to keep pace damage wise with a Rogue.


    Realistically apart for the 4E monk the only change I would be tempted to make is to allow the Monk to use Dex instead of Str for athletics checks.
    Definitely would be great if it at least allowed you to use Dex for jumping.
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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    why does everyone think monks need a revamp? From what I've seen they are the most put together class after rogue. Sure, flurry of blows only gives one extra attack, which is kind of weird for something called a flurry? But monks as a whole a pretty powerful. Their bonus action dodge alone can be used pretty well by even a first timer monk.
    They can be really hard to hit if you put your highest scores into your wisdom and dexterity, and since your hit them and don't-touch-me stats are the same stat, you only really need to focus on those two.
    Bottom line, every monk I've ever played or played with has been a powerhouse mobile tank of swift death, don't know why people think of needs a boost, I think we're looking at it to much on paper and not in practice.
    Agree that flurry of blows feels a bit meh, solution would be another attack on your bonus action at level 11, that would keep them up to speed with other melees.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacehamster View Post
    Agree that flurry of blows feels a bit meh, solution would be another attack on your bonus action at level 11, that would keep them up to speed with other melees.
    They would be doing 3 attacks as a bonus action and 2 as a normal action, that does not feel right.

    A bonus at 11 for their unarmed sounds good though.

    I think that Monks should get a bonus earlier that gives them a magical + to hit and damage with unarmed strikes = to half their proficiency bonus, maybe if not all the time then 1ki for 1 min.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    I would rather fix Tavern Brawler to ADD d4 to you unarmed damage, same with new unarmed fighting style.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Honestly I'm toying with a monk rework that reimagines some features. One of the ideas is that your martial arts dice is always 1d4, but where at the levels where you would normally see it increase, you get +1 to hit and damage with unarmed attacks, which basically means it does the same average damage each level, but with the accuracy bonus.
    Last edited by Frozenstep; 2019-12-06 at 06:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Just like a paladin can use a higher level spell slot to smite, if a monk could spend 3ki or 4 ki or 5ki here or there for a "big" move adds an element of fun.

    Almost every class with spell casting can upcast.

    I'm looking for a signature move for a monk.

    Something fun but with the risk a failure.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    So, if you don't like the Monk class...

    Have you considered just not playing a Monk? You can do a bare-knuckled brawler with the new Fighting Style on other classes now. And the Monk is a powerful, well-done class. It doesn't really NEED anything more. (The suggestions to let them Grapple with Dex, though, is something I might add. It's not needed for sure, but it's nice to have.)
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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    Just like a paladin can use a higher level spell slot to smite, if a monk could spend 3ki or 4 ki or 5ki here or there for a "big" move adds an element of fun.

    Almost every class with spell casting can upcast.

    I'm looking for a signature move for a monk.

    Something fun but with the risk a failure.
    You mean like the Stunning Strike?
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    You mean like the Stunning Strike?
    Which you can spend Ki to attack more, and spend Ki per hit, to spend up to 5 ki per turn to make sure Stunning Strike lands?

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    If I were going to design a "one punch man" inspired single-hit explode-faces monk subclass, I would start by looking at how his ki translates into spell slots (2 ki points = 1st level slot, 3 = 2nd level, and it progresses like that in a linear manner) and then give him a feature that consumes ki like a paladin or warlock can consume his spell slots to smite.

    Something like:
    Singular Strike
    Starting at third level, as an action, you can make a special unarmed attack which deals double your martial arts die for damage. If it hits, you can spend up to half your maximum ki points, rounded up, empowering it. If you do, it deals one extra martial arts damage die for every ki point you spend in this way.

    This is both worse and better than smite. After level 17 it's a bigger dice, and the monk can potentially roll more of them on a given attack than a paladin with his smite. But it also forces the monk to make just one punch, which costs him his extra attack that round (He still gets to make a bonus action unarmed attack as per the class features UA, because you spent a ki point on your action).

    EDIT: I liked this idea so much I wrote the rest of the subclass:

    Singular Strike
    Starting at third level, as an action, you can make a special unarmed attack which deals double your martial arts die for damage. If it hits, you can spend up to half your maximum ki points, rounded up, empowering it. If you do, it deals one extra martial arts damage die for every ki point you spend in this way.

    When you gain Stunning Strike at 5th level, when you use Stunning Strike with Singular Strike the target makes his save against the stun with disadvantage.


    Forceful Strike
    Starting at sixth level, after you hit a creature or loose object (an object is loose if it is not held, worn or carried by a creature, nor attached to another object) with your singular strike, it is pushed 5 feet away from you plus another 5 feet for every ki point you spent empowering the strike. At the end of this movement it falls prone if the number of feet traveled exceeds its dexterity score or strength score, whichever his higher.

    In addition, you may add your wisdom modifier to your attack roll when you attack an object with your singular strike. Objects attached to other objects (such as doors, stones in a wall, or the parts of a ship) may be pushed as outlined above as long as the attack deals enough damage to reduce the target object's hitpoints by half or more. Pushing the object in this way will either move all the other attached objects (for example, if you strike the hull of a ship the whole ship would move) or break the target object from the objects it is attached to (such as a door flying off its hinges) at the Dungeon Master's discreation.

    (The rules for attacking and damaging objects can be found in the Dungeon Master's guide on pages 246-247).


    Focused Strike
    Starting at 11th level, as a bonus action, you can spend a number of ki points to decrease the critical hit threshold on your next attack by 1 for every ki point spent: for example, by spending 1 ki point this way, your next attack is a critical hit on a roll of 19-20 and by spending 2 ki points this way, your attack is a critical hit on a roll of 18-20. The maximum number of ki points you can spend this way is equal to your wisdom modifier.


    Limitless Strike
    Starting at 17th level, your singular strike gains limitless potential. Whenever a damage die for your Singular Strike rolls maximum damage, add another die of the same size to the damage roll (double the added dice if the attack is a critical hit, as normal). Any additional dice added this way which roll maximum damage will also trigger this benefit.
    Last edited by Damon_Tor; 2019-12-07 at 01:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Honestly I'm toying with a monk rework that reimagines some features. One of the ideas is that your martial arts dice is always 1d4, but where at the levels where you would normally see it increase, you get +1 to hit and damage with unarmed attacks, which basically means it does the same average damage each level, but with the accuracy bonus.
    I like this a lot. I've also been letting my players use Str or Dex for both Athletics and Acrobatics since 5E launched - it's pretty easy to justify using either... which includes grapple, though honestly, I don't think I've ever played in a group where grapple was used.
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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Here is my 2 cents as someone who has been a grappler in real life...and played a monk in game. “Grappling” another person is a mix of your strength and your “dexterity.” It REALLY depends on HOW you are grappling someone. To what end? If I’m setting up a throw? I don’t need to be holding someone with brute force strength. I need just enough strength to keep them close me, but my footwork and “sleight of hand” is WAY more important so that I can get ahead of them or behind then into a position to toss them.

    BUT

    If we are talking about getting someone’s arms pinned? Keeping them from getting away from you? Keeping their face shoved in the ground? That is more about athleticism and strength (and how long you can keep your strength up) than dexterity. So Kord the Barbarian who is all muscle and athleticism should realistically (lol) be able to out grab and hold a guy who has more of an emphasis on striking and knocking people down...

    TL;DR

    Situationally dependent. My DM ruled a dex check on a few occasions based on the intent of grapples where I was simply trying to redirect an opponent into another square as opposed to restraining their movement. :)
    Last edited by blackjack50; 2019-12-07 at 01:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    If I were going to design a "one punch man" inspired single-hit explode-faces monk subclass, I would start by looking at how his ki translates into spell slots (2 ki points = 1st level slot, 3 = 2nd level, and it progresses like that in a linear manner) and then give him a feature that consumes ki like a paladin or warlock can consume his spell slots to smite.

    Something like:
    Singular Strike
    Starting at third level, as an action, you can make a special unarmed attack which deals double your martial arts die for damage. If it hits, you can spend up to half your maximum ki points, rounded up, empowering it. If you do, it deals one extra martial arts damage die for every ki point you spend in this way.

    This is both worse and better than smite. After level 17 it's a bigger dice, and the monk can potentially roll more of them on a given attack than a paladin with his smite. But it also forces the monk to make just one punch, which costs him his extra attack that round (He still gets to make a bonus action unarmed attack as per the class features UA, because you spent a ki point on your action).

    EDIT: I liked this idea so much I wrote the rest of the subclass:

    Singular Strike
    Starting at third level, as an action, you can make a special unarmed attack which deals double your martial arts die for damage. If it hits, you can spend up to half your maximum ki points, rounded up, empowering it. If you do, it deals one extra martial arts damage die for every ki point you spend in this way.

    When you gain Stunning Strike at 5th level, when you use Stunning Strike with Singular Strike the target makes his save against the stun with disadvantage.


    Forceful Strike
    Starting at sixth level, after you hit a creature or loose object (an object is loose if it is not held, worn or carried by a creature, nor attached to another object) with your singular strike, it is pushed 5 feet away from you plus another 5 feet for every ki point you spent empowering the strike. At the end of this movement it falls prone if the number of feet traveled exceeds its dexterity score or strength score, whichever his higher.

    In addition, you may add your wisdom modifier to your attack roll when you attack an object with your singular strike. Objects attached to other objects (such as doors, stones in a wall, or the parts of a ship) may be pushed as outlined above as long as the attack deals enough damage to reduce the target object's hitpoints by half or more. Pushing the object in this way will either move all the other attached objects (for example, if you strike the hull of a ship the whole ship would move) or break the target object from the objects it is attached to (such as a door flying off its hinges) at the Dungeon Master's discreation.

    (The rules for attacking and damaging objects can be found in the Dungeon Master's guide on pages 246-247).


    Focused Strike
    Starting at 11th level, as a bonus action, you can spend a number of ki points to decrease the critical hit threshold on your next attack by 1 for every ki point spent: for example, by spending 1 ki point this way, your next attack is a critical hit on a roll of 19-20 and by spending 2 ki points this way, your attack is a critical hit on a roll of 18-20. The maximum number of ki points you can spend this way is equal to your wisdom modifier.


    Limitless Strike
    Starting at 17th level, your singular strike gains limitless potential. Whenever a damage die for your Singular Strike rolls maximum damage, add another die of the same size to the damage roll (double the added dice if the attack is a critical hit, as normal). Any additional dice added this way which roll maximum damage will also trigger this benefit.
    This great stuff.

    Looks fun. It's give the monk the option at a cost to let loose.

    I'm just looking for something that isn't the same FOB and stunning fist.

    It could be a base option for a monks. Maybe a leaping kick or strike, a flying kick or knee.

    And it might cost all your Ki points... But it's an option you now have.

    I like the monk class as it is... But there's always room for improvement.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Big Kicks for the Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack50 View Post
    Here is my 2 cents as someone who has been a grappler in real life...and played a monk in game. “Grappling” another person is a mix of your strength and your “dexterity.”
    Virtually every dex or str check in the game would be a mix of strength and dexterity in real life. Swinging a greatsword accurately at a target requires dexterity, firing a longbow requires strength. Jumping a great distance requires dexterity, acrobatics requires strength. But D&D divides precise actions and powerful actions into discrete groups with little to no crossover for the sake of simplicity and game balance.

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