Big Kicks for the Monk

[HiveStriker]

While it is true that their three main stats are also the three main saves, monks just plain need too many stats.

They have to have dex to be effective with their offense especially with unarmed attacks due to the oversight of no good source of unarmed magical modifiers.
They have a d8 hd and lower ac so they can't let con get too low or they can be fragile.
They have to have high wisdom for their saves on their best abilities and their ac.

Heaven forbid you want to try anything that needs another stat like athletics with str or multiclassing something that takes charisma or intelligence.

And yet I presented several builds that did exactly that, multiclassing in Charisma classes (and I could do the same with INT) that were still extremely effective.

What you lose on one side, you gain on another...
But well, nobody is blinder than the man who does not want to see as they say...

[blackjack50]

Virtually every dex or str check in the game would be a mix of strength and dexterity in real life. Swinging a greatsword accurately at a target requires dexterity, firing a longbow requires strength. Jumping a great distance requires dexterity, acrobatics requires strength. But D&D divides precise actions and powerful actions into discrete groups with little to no crossover for the sake of simplicity and game balance.

Well. This is kind of my point. “Simplicity, game balance.” Having a monk be able to blanket swap their grapple from strength to dex seems a bit unbalancing. Where, instead, recognizing that there are situations where dex makes more sense for grapple because of intent of said grapple? You can allow that mod without breaking balance or the game. It also makes sense for a martial artist to be able to apply proper footwork to redirect an opponent with positioning and a basic Tai Otoshi .

[JackPhoenix]

Well. This is kind of my point. “Simplicity, game balance.” Having a monk be able to blanket swap their grapple from strength to dex seems a bit unbalancing. Where, instead, recognizing that there are situations where dex makes more sense for grapple because of intent of said grapple? You can allow that mod without breaking balance or the game. It also makes sense for a martial artist to be able to apply proper footwork to redirect an opponent with positioning and a basic Tai Otoshi .

Well, the only thing you can do with grapple is to stop the target from moving on their own and to drag them around. Not much to look for a different intent there.

[Misterwhisper]

And yet I presented several builds that did exactly that, multiclassing in Charisma classes (and I could do the same with INT) that were still extremely effective.

What you lose on one side, you gain on another...
But well, nobody is blinder than the man who does not want to see as they say...

Yes you made a reason for the most stat intensive class to raise a dump stat to 13.

[blackjack50]

Well, the only thing you can do with grapple is to stop the target from moving on their own and to drag them around. Not much to look for a different intent there.

Typically, but in our campaign we considered it a grapple to grab someone and turn them and let go. It happened a couple of times. Once on a stair well. Basically? A single collar whip (like Muay Thai) where you grab a guy and use a whipping motion to move the opponent. I mean technically? No. They aren’t moving on their own. But they aren’t being dragged. But it is just using leverage to spin the person using their momentum. It wouldn’t be something that would be held unless designated by a player. Then? Athletics check.

It is a common move in martial arts/grappling. From Muay Thai to karate and judo and wrestling.

[Misterwhisper]

Typically, but in our campaign we considered it a grapple to grab someone and turn them and let go. It happened a couple of times. Once on a stair well. Basically? A single collar whip (like Muay Thai) where you grab a guy and use a whipping motion to move the opponent. I mean technically? No. They aren’t moving on their own. But they aren’t being dragged. But it is just using leverage to spin the person using their momentum. It wouldn’t be something that would be held unless designated by a player. Then? Athletics check.

It is a common move in martial arts/grappling. From Muay Thai to karate and judo and wrestling.

Isn’t that just the shove maneuver, same thing, just athletics check.

[Pufferwockey]

While it is true that their three main stats are also the three main saves, monks just plain need too many stats.

They have to have dex to be effective with their offense especially with unarmed attacks due to the oversight of no good source of unarmed magical modifiers.
They have a d8 hd and lower ac so they can't let con get too low or they can be fragile.
They have to have high wisdom for their saves on their best abilities and their ac.

Heaven forbid you want to try anything that needs another stat like athletics with str or multiclassing something that takes charisma or intelligence.

Do you play with all min maxers? I took a feat at 4th for flavour and another at 8th and my kensai is bonkers destructive

[Misterwhisper]

Do you play with all min maxers? I took a feat at 4th for flavour and another at 8th and my kensai is bonkers destructive

So you are running around with a 16 at at post 8th level unless you have some rather hard to find magic items?
You are also only going to have a stunning strike DC of 14 or so.
Your to hit is at minimum going to be 2 points behind any other archer, more than likely 4.

Either you multiclassed it and you are not all monk, or you are in a very easy group.

Also, does your group actual play agile defense correctly? I have yet to see a single person who has said that kensei is good that actually plays it right.

[Pufferwockey]

So you are running around with a 16 at at post 8th level unless you have some rather hard to find magic items?
You are also only going to have a stunning strike DC of 14 or so.
Your to hit is at minimum going to be 2 points behind any other archer, more than likely 4.

Either you multiclassed it and you are not all monk, or you are in a very easy group.

Also, does your group actual play agile defense correctly? I have yet to see a single person who has said that kensei is good that actually plays it right.

I'm sitting at 18 dex, 14 wis 16 ac, with admittedly lucky hp rolls. Patient defense or agile parry? dont use patient defense or stunning strike much. Step of the wind when I'm worried about getting hit even one more time, a lot of ranged attacks or, on soft targets, fobs . If I need to shut down a caster yesterday I might go nova and throw some stunning strike attempts at them. Casters in my party are good about denying enemy reactions or giving them disadvantage so I can hang on to my ki points and use them in a pinch.

If you mean agile parry I'm not sure how it can be used wrong. Maybe using a versatile weapons higher die for one of your action attacks and an unarmed strike? I always rolled lower just in case, even if I didn't it's an average of 1 more point of damage a turn, even assuming you hit every attack, so i can't see that being the difference between playable or not. Do some people attack with the weapon twice and then figure their bonus action unarmed strike triggers it? Not what I'm doing.

Easy table? Could be. It's certainly more RP than combat, which probably pushes ki economy further in my favour. My impression is that the dm is going over CR recommendations but that's a low bar.

EDIT. I am probably gonna multiclass, but that's more about the more mystical monk abilities don't fit my character's flavour. Not that I'm gonna be deliberately dumb about it or anything.

EDIT 2: I shouldn't have said bonkers destructive. That was an exaggeration. It's effective and fun as hell to play

[djreynolds]

I think grappling is great.....

But I want flying side kick.

I want it because it's cool.

For example my 11th level wizard used chain lightning... because it was cool... it was fun.

So help me out with designing a big kick

[Misterwhisper]

I think grappling is great.....

But I want flying side kick.

I want it because it's cool.

For example my 11th level wizard used chain lightning... because it was cool... it was fun.

So help me out with designing a big kick

Level 6:

Flying Kick/Superman Punch
As an action, if you have moved at least 10 feet in a straight line you may spend one Ki point to make an unarmed strike attack against an opponent, if you preform a jump before making this attack you make the attack roll with advantage. If this attack hits it Inflicts 1 bonus die of unarmed strike damage for every 10 feet you moved in a straight line before making the attack.

[Pufferwockey]

Level 6:

Flying Kick/Superman Punch
As an action, if you have moved at least 10 feet in a straight line you may spend one Ki point to make an unarmed strike attack against an opponent, if you preform a jump before making this attack you make the attack roll with advantage. If this attack hits it Inflicts 1 bonus die of unarmed strike damage for every 10 feet you moved in a straight line before making the attack.

I mean that could be like 10d6+dex for 2 ki points and half your action in some circumstances. probably want to throw some more limitations on that unless you want your monks strafing back and forth like they're jousting.

[Misterwhisper]

I mean that could be like 10d6+dex for 2 ki points and half your action in some circumstances. probably want to throw some more limitations on that unless you want your monks strafing back and forth like they're jousting.

It is an action so no multiple attacks and if they spent a bonus action to dash no flurry.

Also how often will you have that long of a straight line to the target.

10d6+dex is about average for a turn if you flurry, maybe even less.

Does give a great chance for a massive crit.

[Pufferwockey]

It is an action so no multiple attacks and if they spent a bonus action to dash no flurry.

Also how often will you have that long of a straight line to the target.

10d6+dex is about average for a turn if you flurry, maybe even less.

Does give a great chance for a massive crit.

Sorry, I must have misread your post. I suppose that's fair. Does make a fun opening move.

[Yakk]

Haste. 40' base movement.

Use your Haste action to dash. Use bonus action to dash (1 ki).

240' of movement, doable at level 5ish, for 25d6 damage, every round for 10 rounds. Costs 1 3rd level concentration spell from an ally, or a haste potion.

Movement in 5e is not strongly controlled -- damage scaling with movement is going to be easy to break.

[Misterwhisper]

Haste. 40' base movement.

Use your Haste action to dash. Use bonus action to dash (1 ki).

240' of movement, doable at level 5ish, for 25d6 damage, every round for 10 rounds. Costs 1 3rd level concentration spell from an ally, or a haste potion.

Movement in 5e is not strongly controlled -- damage scaling with movement is going to be easy to break.

That is not how dash works.
It would be 120 feet.

You would have to move in a straight line to the target. I don’t see too many fights with 120 feet of straight line movement range.

To do it more than once you would need two enemies in a straight line 120 feet apart, with nothing in the way, and could be taking multiple OA to get there.

On top of all the other things that were just completely wrong in you assessment you would need a teammate to cast a 3rd level spell on you and keep concentration.

[Protolisk]

That is not how dash works.
It would be 120 feet.

You would have to move in a straight line to the target. I don’t see too many fights with 120 feet of straight line movement range.

To do it more than once you would need two enemies in a straight line 120 feet apart, with nothing in the way, and could be taking multiple OA to get there.

On top of all the other things that were just completely wrong in you assessment you would need a teammate to cast a 3rd level spell on you and keep concentration.

Hastes very first benefit is to double your movement speed. Their base 40 becomes 80. Then you Dash as an action, then you bonus action as another dash (as a monk), then spend a single action on the kick. 240 feet.

Add in Tabaxi to double it again up to 480.

However, yes, you'd need a massive straight shot to do it. Maybe in a complete open field this strategy would work, but otherwise it's limited to the surroundings.

[Misterwhisper]

Hastes very first benefit is to double your movement speed. Their base 40 becomes 80. Then you Dash as an action, then you bonus action as another dash (as a monk), then spend a single action on the kick. 240 feet.

Add in Tabaxi to double it again up to 480.

However, yes, you'd need a massive straight shot to do it. Maybe in a complete open field this strategy would work, but otherwise it's limited to the surroundings.

Ah, forgot about haste doubling naturally and also giving another action.

Then that is more of an issue with haste being so good, not flying kick.

Especially considering that you would need someone else to put it on you or have a magic item.

[diplomancer]

Hastes very first benefit is to double your movement speed. Their base 40 becomes 80. Then you Dash as an action, then you bonus action as another dash (as a monk), then spend a single action on the kick. 240 feet.

Add in Tabaxi to double it again up to 480.

However, yes, you'd need a massive straight shot to do it. Maybe in a complete open field this strategy would work, but otherwise it's limited to the surroundings.

Reminded me of Sir Lancelot storming Python Castle

[Man_Over_Game]

I think what monks are missing or need is big strike capability.

I'll need to find them, but a couple of homebrew subclasses I made revolved around changing how Monks played towards something like you're suggesting.

One had the Monk slowly gain aspects of an animal, between Monkey, Crow, Elephant, that gave you a special attack that changed based on what Aspect you chose. Monkey granted mobility and tankiness the more badguys you were against, Crow made you a harasser that forced enemies to attack you while making that prospect difficult, and Elephant bullied enemies around the battlefield and stopped them from running away. Mechanically, the goal was to create something that was simple, but with enough versatility to be complex.

[Edit] Found it: Way of the Savage Heart

Spoiler: Savage Heart excerpt

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At 3rd level, when you take the Way of the Savage Heart, you learn the ancient ways of combat by mimicking the ways that beasts establish their dominance in the wilds. You can now utilize a special attack in place of an attack from the Attack action, called your Primal Strike. Primal Strike is considered the same as an unarmed strike, however you can choose for it to deal bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage by using various strikes, bites, or claws, and you are considered using a natural weapon when attacking with it. Also, natural weapons now count as Monk weapons for you.

Additionally, you choose a beast aspect and gain its benefit to your Primal Strike feature. Your body physically shifts to reflect these changes in a minor way that incorporates the beast aspect.

• Monkey- Your hair grows more, either on your body, from your head, or both. After hitting a creature with Primal Strike, you move up to half of your speed to another location adjacent to that target without provoking attacks of opportunity. You gain Temporary HP equal to your proficiency for every enemy you're adjacent to when you end that movement. The maximum number of hitpoints you can have with this feature is equal to your Monk level, and you lose these temporary hitpoints at the start of your next turn.
• Crow- Your pupils become larger and your hair turns much darker. Creatures you hit with Primal Strike have disadvantage to attack you until the end of your turn, and they have disadvantage to attack creatures other than you until the start of your next turn.
• Elephant- Your nose and ears seem more pronounced. Your Primal Strike can shove a Large or smaller creature back 5 feet when it hits. If the creature is light enough for you to lift, you can instead move them 5 feet in any direction after hitting them with Primal Strike. Also, you have advantage to hit with your Opportunity Attacks made with an unarmed strike.

At level 6, you can spend 4 Ki points to cast Alter Self. The spellcasting modifier for this spell is your Wisdom modifier, and you have advantage on Concentration saving throws made to maintain it. (Possible edit to double the duration to 2 hours, but may cause conflict with monks' short rest Ki recharging)
Also, you gain Proficiency in the Survival skill. If you already had Proficiency, you now have Expertise in the Survival skill.



At level 11, your bestial survival instincts come into focus. If you are at equal or less than half of your HP after attacking with your Primal Strike feature, your Patient Defense feature costs 0 Ki points until the end of your turn.



At level 17, your beast aspect evolves into a physical aspect upon your body, granting you additional abilities and enhancing your Primal Strike. You receive additional benefits based off of the choice you made at level 3.

• Monkey- You grow a tail, which can be used as an extra arm. When you hit a creature with Primal Strike, you can make an additional Primal Strike when you use your Flurry of Blows feature in the same turn. Additionally, temporary hitpoints gained by your Primal Strike feature can stack, up to your Monk level.
• Crow- Your hair grows into thin feathers, as do the undersides of your arms. When you use Step of the Wind, you gain a Flying speed equal to your Unarmored Movement bonus, but doing so requires you to not use your Action for anything other than to Attack with Primal Strike this turn.
• Elephant- You grow moderately large tusks that extend from the sides of your mouth. When using your Primal Strike feature on a creature, and there are no enemies adjacent to them, they must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.

The other was a subclass that created a classic Wuxia-style Monk that jumped in the air a lot. Specifically, it granted extra power based on how far you could move/jump; it even had a special attack that launched enemies into the air (and stayed there for a short while) after attempting a Stunning Strike, before crashing down on your foes like a fleshy cannonball.

[Edit] Found it: Way of the Moon Walker

Spoiler: Moon Walker excerpt

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Level 3: Star Step: You may jump using your Dexterity attribute, rather than your Strength. In addition, your jump distance is doubled, and your jump distance can be doubled again from your Step of the Wind feature. If you jump 20 feet in a single direction, you may make an unarmed strike against a target you were adjacent to during any part of the jump.

You may also choose to gain Proficiency in either the Acrobatics, Athletics, or Insight skill.

Level 6: Starfall: When you use your Slowfall feature, and you land adjacent to an enemy, you may spend a ki point as part of your reaction to have it take half the damage that you mitigated with your Slowfall feature.

Level 11: Shooting Star Strike: When you use your Stunning Strike feature, if the creature is Large or smaller, you may spend 2 ki points to knock the target prone and launch it in the air if it fails a Dexterity Save. While in the air, it is lifted 20 feet, and it lands at a space of your choosing within 15 feet of where the attack was initiated. It lands at the start of its next turn.
As a part of this maneuver, you may follow the same trajectory as the creature, landing adjacent to the target at the start of its next turn. This costs all of your remaining speed, you are considered adjacent to the target during this movement, and you do not benefit from your Star Step feature until the start of the target's turn.

You do not have to succeed on the Stunning Strike to perform this special maneuver. (Note: Falling 10+ feet means a creature takes 1d6 damage for every 10 feet it falls when it lands.)

Level 17: Mastery of Moonlight: While in the air or jumping, you are considered to have temporary hitpoints equal to your monk level, and these cease when you touch the ground, but not before mitigating fall damage. In addition, your Starfall feature now deals damage to all enemies adjacent to you.

(NOTE: Stunning Strike causes all Dexterity saving throws to fail. As such, the level 11 feature intentionally is designed to let you move your Stunned target where you want him to go without any risk of failure after a successful Stunning Strike)

These might provide what you're looking for, or give some insight on how to develop unique methods of attacks for yourself.

[RifleAvenger]

On the jump kick and hella movement thing, I'm running a game with the FF14 homebrew classes and Dragoon literally has that ability except you don't need an unimpeded straight shot along the ground and its limited to your max jump length (quite high with gear and DRG class features, but not 480 feet high).

Even running relatively open maps to take advantage of how fast nearly every FF14 job is, the DRG jump at best evens the player out with the rest of the group (their raw melee potential is really bad).

Encounter design and maybe assigning a dice cap to the ability would leave it plenty balanced lMO.

[djreynolds]

Level 6:

Flying Kick/Superman Punch
As an action, if you have moved at least 10 feet in a straight line you may spend one Ki point to make an unarmed strike attack against an opponent, if you preform a jump before making this attack you make the attack roll with advantage. If this attack hits it Inflicts 1 bonus die of unarmed strike damage for every 10 feet you moved in a straight line before making the attack.

You've been holding out. This is good.

I was working on a flying side kick and the more distance the more damage.

I like this.

[Yakk]

Ah, forgot about haste doubling naturally and also giving another action.

Then that is more of an issue with haste being so good, not flying kick.

Especially considering that you would need someone else to put it on you or have a magic item.

No, the problem is that your speed is not a highly controlled number in 5e. There are many ways to make it really big, because 5e doesn't highly control it.

Then you hung flying kick damage off of a not-controlled number.

Don't hang damage off a number the game doesn't keep under control.

(Admittedly, fly + haste + grapple lets you basically do this same thing via a vertical suplex, but the damage is literally halved and the target is sized limited, and we are now using 2 level 3 concentration spells; so like 3x worse.)

Say "at least 30 feet" and figure out how much damage it should do (4x?) to be balanced, instead of making it scale infinitely unless your explicit goal is to provide a game-breaking combo. Which I mean is an option, if that floats your boat.

[Misterwhisper]

You've been holding out. This is good.

I was working on a flying side kick and the more distance the more damage.

I like this.

I have been doing game designer since 2005, and done in house play testing for multiple companies due to some of the friends I have in the business.

None at WOTC though.

[Misterwhisper]

No, the problem is that your speed is not a highly controlled number in 5e. There are many ways to make it really big, because 5e doesn't highly control it.

Then you hung flying kick damage off of a not-controlled number.

Don't hang damage off a number the game doesn't keep under control.

(Admittedly, fly + haste + grapple lets you basically do this same thing via a vertical suplex, but the damage is literally halved and the target is sized limited, and we are now using 2 level 3 concentration spells; so like 3x worse.)

Say "at least 30 feet" and figure out how much damage it should do (4x?) to be balanced, instead of making it scale infinitely unless your explicit goal is to provide a game-breaking combo. Which I mean is an option, if that floats your boat.

the issue is that with that many resources being put into your speed, between that many items, or spells from team mates and things anything would be broken by that point.

Ex. If you you give a warlock 2, fighter 2, wizard 10, assassin 3, ranger 3, action surge haste and illusionist bracers they can bomb the crap out of someone with tons of Eldritch Blasts, but you have spent a crap ton of resources to do it and your team is having to help you.

No different really, and you are putting all your eggs in one basket, and on top of that how often can you actually use all that movement in a straight line.

[Man_Over_Game]

No, the problem is that your speed is not a highly controlled number in 5e. There are many ways to make it really big, because 5e doesn't highly control it.

Then you hung flying kick damage off of a not-controlled number.

Don't hang damage off a number the game doesn't keep under control.

(Admittedly, fly + haste + grapple lets you basically do this same thing via a vertical suplex, but the damage is literally halved and the target is sized limited, and we are now using 2 level 3 concentration spells; so like 3x worse.)

Say "at least 30 feet" and figure out how much damage it should do (4x?) to be balanced, instead of making it scale infinitely unless your explicit goal is to provide a game-breaking combo. Which I mean is an option, if that floats your boat.

You make a very good point.

Speed is, outside of niche cases (like kiting in a duel), mostly a useless stat for combat situations. Since most battle maps are only about 3 real feet across (36 real 1-inch squares, or 180 in-game feet across), and only use half that (90 in-game feet across), having more than 45 feet is usually very irrelevant. Making it relevant, by converting it into combat potential (damage) could have some big consequences.

Notably, the maximum amount of Movement I could calculate was 5120 Movement, with 1280 Speed. Which translates to ~10 miles/hour

• 30 Base
• +20 Base: Level 10 Monk
• +10 Base: Level 6 Barbarian
• +10 Base: Mobile Feat
• +10 Base: Longstrider
• Base x2: Tabaxi Racial Action
• Base x2: Boots of Speed
• Base x2: Potion of Speed
• Base x2: Haste
• Dash: Haste Action
• Dash: Action Surge (Level 2 Fighter)
• Dash: Step of the Wind (Level 2 Monk)

So it can get ridiculous. Even calculating a trigger for every 30 feet would equate to 170 triggers.

[RifleAvenger]

You make a very good point.

Speed is, outside of niche cases (like kiting in a duel), mostly a useless stat for combat situations. Since most battle maps are only about 3 real feet across (36 real 1-inch squares, or 180 in-game feet across), and only use half that (90 in-game feet across), having more than 45 feet is usually very irrelevant. Making it relevant, by converting it into combat potential (damage) could have some big consequences.

Notably, the maximum amount of Movement I could calculate was 5120 Movement, with 1280 Speed. Which translates to ~10 miles/hour

• 30 Base
• +20 Base: Level 10 Monk
• +10 Base: Level 6 Barbarian
• +10 Base: Mobile Feat
• +10 Base: Longstrider
• Base x2: Tabaxi Racial Action
• Base x2: Boots of Speed
• Base x2: Potion of Speed
• Base x2: Haste
• Dash: Haste Action
• Dash: Action Surge (Level 2 Fighter)
• Dash: Step of the Wind (Level 2 Monk)

So it can get ridiculous. Even calculating a trigger for every 30 feet would equate to 170 triggers.

So those speed boost stack multiplicative with one another? Asking in general here, since I had been calculating multiplicative boosts additive at my tables as a safety valve.

Also, that speed is closer to a mile every six seconds, so I think you meant ~10 miles/minute or 600 mph. Actually pretty funny for me given how snail slow the "normal" speeds in D&D make most characters when compared to real life. It takes that much effort to actually get up to superheroic speeds.

[Man_Over_Game]

So those speed boost stack multiplicative with one another? Asking in general here, since I had been calculating multiplicative boosts additive at my tables as a safety valve.

Also, that speed is closer to a mile every six seconds, so I think you meant ~10 miles/minute or 600 mph. Actually pretty funny for me given how snail slow the "normal" speeds in D&D make most characters when compared to real life. It takes that much effort to actually get up to superheroic speeds.

Yeah, that's both correct. Sorry about that, forgot to multiply it by 60 twice.

The values are multiplicative because they're not coming from the same source (Boots of Speed and Potion of Speed aren't the same magical effect, just similar results), and...well, there's nothing saying they aren't multiplicative. If they wanted it to make it additive, they'd say "Gain a bonus to your movement equal to your Speed", like they did everywhere else.

But there's a difference in how it's written, which implies there's a difference in how it should be implemented. Copy-Paste is a lot less work than coming up with two different ways of saying the same rules, so why didn't they Copy-Paste if they're supposed to be the same?

[Spartan_MD]

Love the idea.

Perhaps some type of Marvel’s Iron Fist for one of the maneuvers?

Personally, I would re-skin Sneak Attack with a huge Ki point cost.