The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 43 of 43
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    afroakuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    The 2E book Secrets of the Lamp alluded to a lore reason why efreet don't run around spamming wish - they aren't actually personally granting wishes. Rather, their invocation of wish is administrated by the Great Sultan of the Efreet - picture the genie personally flying out to retrieve the Sword of Kilgoblyn from the cavern where it was once lost, or hunting down your enemy to whack him with a scimitar until he falls down very dead. The Sultan could veto and twist any wish issued that he felt went against his own interest and those of his people writ large, but for the most part the actual wish served as the verbal covenant that someone had extracted service from an efreeti. In essence, if your PC wants to play an efreeti, part of their cultural background is understanding what it means for a wish to be fulfilled and how that will be accounted for on the back end.

    As for mirror mephits, there's unfortunately very little lore on the Plane of Mirrors for us to draw from, but the little that there has been suggests no small degree of xenophobia and a rather alien attitude toward the un-reflected. The "mirror magic" that a mirror mephit draws upon may come with concerns about creating too many reflections at a time, especially where the quality of those reflections may vary (the Disguise check). Mirroring certain powerful or otherworldly beings would almost certainly come with the risk of drawing the attention and ire of the originals toward the Plane of Mirrors, which has a substantial interest in keeping powerful outsiders out. Even attempting to mirror a powerful servant of a deity would trip the deity's portfolio sense.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Jun 2014

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    So why don't monsters break the game? Why do we meet Efreetis or Glabrezus not fully decked out in epic magic items?
    In an infinite multiverse of possibilities, monsters do break the game, we just happen to be playing in ones where the wave form has collapsed into 'didn't break the game'.

    Honestly though, these worlds aren't simulations, they're sandboxes. You might as well ask why red dragons ever get killed by CR appropriate adventurers when they have tools at their disposal that should actually make that whole 'CR appropriate' thing a joke: Because it's called Dungeons and Dragons and an epic fight against a dragon that you actually stand a chance of winning is kind of the point.

    Asking why monsters don't break the game is like asking where GTA gets an infinite supply of pedestrians from. I mean surely someone would have depopulated the city by now, right? Except they don't because that's not the game you're playing.

    I mean... your players COULD show up to the game and say they've decided they just want to settle down and be farmers and ignore all the adventure hooks, but they don't (I mean, I assume they don't.) because that's not the game you all showed up to play. Likewise, infinite wish spamming overlord outsiders isn't the game you all showed up to play either (except when it is).

    Which brings us back to:

    If there is some reason for this, then I think I can make PCs adhere to this reason as well and unban some content.
    You can't MAKE the PCs do anything. You can sit down and talk to them about the game you all showed up to play, and ask that nobody take things too far in a direction that's going to break the game, and settle on what exactly that means as a group and as a DM. I've said this many times already, but once more for the cheap seats: If the only reason your players aren't breaking your game is because you're banning content, the problem is your players and it needs to be addressed as such.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London, EU
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Deus ex machina ó literally.

    There are a large number of gods running around who are quite capable of quashing any such nonsense.

    And, when someone tries: you get an epic plot.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' ó Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook
    Warped Druid Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    South
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Deus ex machina ó literally.

    There are a large number of gods running around who are quite capable of quashing any such nonsense.

    And, when someone tries: you get an epic plot.
    That's a pretty summation of "Die Vecna Die!" actually.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Deus ex machina ó literally.

    There are a large number of gods running around who are quite capable of quashing any such nonsense.

    And, when someone tries: you get an epic plot.
    Hey that's actually not a bad idea! Why didn't I think of it?

    Deities are threatened by pun-pun, so if anything even looks like it's going down that route they smite them, so all the wish monsters use their SLA as little as possible in fear of incurring a divine smiting.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Hey that's actually not a bad idea! Why didn't I think of it?

    Deities are threatened by pun-pun, so if anything even looks like it's going down that route they smite them, so all the wish monsters use their SLA as little as possible in fear of incurring a divine smiting.
    That's actually similar to the plot of Pillars of Eternity.

    Spoiler: PoE Spoilers
    Show
    The gods were created by man, and they actively ban/outlaw animancy (study of manipulating souls) to prevent mortals from figuring out their true origins.
    Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2019-12-09 at 08:58 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy76 View Post
    D&d is not a coherent, closed simulation of a world. It's a toolbox for people to colaborate and create their own stories. Ideally, a good DM conjures up the illusion of a fully fledged world that exists and runs regardless of the players, but it's ultimately that, an illusion. The players are at the forefront and the world is there for them to react to and intercact with.

    If you need justification to some monster not breaking the setting, you can provide your own. For example, Solars, Pit Fiends and Glabrezus are usually bound to higher powers (Deities, Archfiends, etc) and might not be able to use their wish abilities whitout permission from those powers. Zodar are constructs of unknown creation, so maybe whatever created them left some very specific condititions under which they can use wish (I think their entry even mentions that they only use this ability once every century or so, even though they can cast it once a year).

    But yeah, trying to build a functional world from RAW alone will yield absurdities because the system was not designed for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    Because they can't risk using their powers at all in case a bunch of adventurers pop out of nowhere and want to fight them. So they sit around all day like bored teenagers at a grocery store waiting for something to happen.

    Because the universe isn't a "game" to them and "breaking the game" represents very real damage to reality.

    Because they know more loot means bigger target for adventurers.

    Because anything beyond what is explicitly stated in the rules-text of "Wish" requires DM approval and since none of them are players, none of them have a DM, so they can't do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Absolutely correct. I decide what the NPCs in the world I create will do. I do not choose to destroy my own game.

    Thatís the meta-reason. The in-world reason I would give if anybody asked would be, ďThatís a good question. Who is your PC asking?Ē

    [And if somebody devoted serious time and resources to the question, they would eventually learn that there is a reason that is so alien to human(oid) thought that it would be impossible for them to comprehend it.]

    I learned in mathematical simulations class that any simulation will break down if you focus on the part of the system that you werenít trying to simulate. The answer is to let the simulation do its job, and donít apply it to the part of the system it wasnít built to simulate .

    In this case, it means donít use rules in ways that will destroy the game. For some reason, they canít or donít use wishes that way. No further explanation will improve the game in any useful way.
    ^ Some combination of these three, plus a dash of the original background lore afroakuma helpfully supplied.

    As a sidenote, I strongly recommend PF Wish; as it (a) removes magic items from the "safe list" which cuts a lot of the abuse, and (b) establishes that not all wishes are equal - with wishes from items, bound creatures, and a caster's own power all having different degrees of general effectiveness, being slanted by the being's outlook in the second case, and overall susceptibility to screw.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-12-10 at 02:03 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    What incentive is there for monsters to not break the world?
    You left out the famous Shadowclypse.

    In my world XP is a tangible resource, like gold. Hence there are no free wishes (somebody has to pay the XP cost for them) and Shadows need to collect enough XP to create another CR 3 creature to spawn.

    The source of XP is intelligent minds. So powerful creatures have vast farms of low-level sentient slaves whose primary purpose is to be farmed for XP after they've raised the next generation. These powerful creatures are called "kings." (The bad ones work their peasants into an early grave and the good ones wait till they die of old age.)

    This not only solves the problem of why monsters don't take over the world, it also explains why monsters hunt humans (which would otherwise be a terrible food source), why high-level characters have kingdoms that they protect, and why the king is always the toughest guy in town.

    Seriously, XP as a material resource solves so many problems, it's like they always meant for it be like that. They even established the price - 1 XP = 5 gp - right there in the DMG.

    (Check out Lords of Prime on DriveThruRPG for how this all works.)

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Far away from you.

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    If there was a society where everybody could cast wish 3 times per day for free; chances are they wouldn't. Well, they wouldn't after a while; because some people would use their wishes to seize other peoples' gained resources and ultimately, lives / thoughts.

    Wish would be a djinn's greatest weapon and strongest defense against other djinns. A djinn with 3 wishes is infinitely more powerful than a djinn with just 2, and I'm sure they all know that.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    They do, most DMs just choose to Rule Zero it.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    For the monsters with game-breaking abilities (Solars, Efreeti, and the like) the answer has to come down to one of a few: either nobody's thought of it yet; or they actually can't; or they can but there's a very good reason they don't; or they already have and we're living in the aftermath (may overlap with "good reason they don't").
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy76 View Post
    D&d is not a coherent, closed simulation of a world. It's a toolbox for people to colaborate and create their own stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by aerilon View Post
    Basically, it boils down to they don't break the game because it would break the game. There is no in-game lore reason I've seen, or at least not one that's consistent (I think some adventures, fiction books, or other settings touched on/hinted at the existence of some cosmological/universal rules settings type fluff, but I don't have enough personal knowledge to give an in-depth accounting of them) enough to count for our purposes lore-wise.

    So the real reason isn't in-game lore. The reason is meta - the characters that are "internal" to the game, like NPCs and monsters, don't break the game because it would break the game. PCs, on the other hand, being "external" in that they are controlled by the players, can break the game in a whole host of ways. How many of which you'll allow is up to you.
    Splitting the difference here, I think the answer that speaks to me would roughly be: 'D&D, as published, is a set of rules and a just-barely-coherent (including no small amount of inconsistency) implied setting designed to be taken by groups, made their own (in no small part by filling in the lore gaps with how they want the game to work), and play a very player-facing game with it. Mind you, the world should still make sense, or else the players will feel that their characters aren't really wandering around in a world, so much as being at the foot of a conveyor belt that feeds parts of a world to them. However, there's not reason for the explanations for how the world makes sense not to be campaign-specific. Gary stated early one how surprised he was that people wanted to know what his game world was like. Not that that stopped him from selling it to us, but there are clearly spots from the up through 3e (and past) where the explanations for why X doesn't Y isn't 'well there clearly needs to be a reason, but it isn't given.'

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    I'd generally assume that monsters don't break the world around them because there are things like Inevitables in the world whose sole purpose is to hunt down those who bend reality and defy the fundamental laws of nature. One of the reasons that becoming a lich should be considered dangerous business, for example, is that there is a type of Inevitable who specifically hunts down those who cheat death. Liches might be uncommon in a particular setting because those who might become one are afraid of attracting the unwanted attention of one of these.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ruethgar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Austin TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why don't monsters break the game?

    Its just like IRL, things part of the order of life don't try **** it up, only humans(players) do that.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •