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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    I was toying around with the idea of having a feat that basically grants a bonus invocation for people with warlock levels. Seeing as how some invocations are more powerful than others, and are generally on the same power level as feats, is there anything that make this a terrible idea?

    Additionally, would this be something that anyone could take if they had warlock spells (such as from overlapping spell lists or the Magic Initiate feat)?

    Let me know what you think Playgrounders!

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    I don't think it would break anything.

    However, you may want to consider requiring the character to have at least 2 levels of warlock and have unlocked invocations before being allowed to take this feat. The main reason is that I could see folks taking one level of hexblade and perhaps taking this feat to obtain agonizing blast.

    Another consideration is that it seems like it might be pretty weak as a feat on its own depending on which invocation is chosen. Some of them are very cool and thematic offering some nice out of combat abilities but aren't necessarily that "powerful" so, unless it is too much work or too complicated, you could designate some invocations as 1/2 feats including a +1 boost to a specific stat while others require a full feat. Alternatively, you could have some of the invocations designated as weaker so you could pick two of them for the feat ... Eyes of the Rune Keeper and Eldritch Sight for example would be an interesting combination but neither one would be worth a feat separately.

    On the other hand, devils sight, agonizing blast, repelling blast can be some of the more powerful invocations depending on the character build.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    It's not a terrible idea, but I don't see any reason for min-maxers, like myself, to take it. Polearm Bladelocks are feat heavy and need to take GWM, PAM, Sentinel as well as get Cha to 20 while Blastlocks need War Caster and/or Resilient: Constitution as as 20 Cha. I'd have a hard time justifying pushing back one of those feats for an extra Eldritch Invocation. Maybe make it a half-feat or add two Invocations instead of one?
    Last edited by Expected; 2019-12-06 at 11:29 AM.

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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by carrdrivesyou View Post
    I was toying around with the idea of having a feat that basically grants a bonus invocation for people with warlock levels. Seeing as how some invocations are more powerful than others, and are generally on the same power level as feats, is there anything that make this a terrible idea?

    Additionally, would this be something that anyone could take if they had warlock spells (such as from overlapping spell lists or the Magic Initiate feat)?

    Let me know what you think Playgrounders!
    I think a feat should offer two. (See Skilled, and Magic Initiate)
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Honestly, my first thought is "Why restrict this for warlocks?" An arcane trickster would burn a feat for Mask of Many Faces in a heartbeat!

    Second thought: There's a lot of variation in power among the various invocations. Fortunately, WotC already gated these with prerequisites for some of the invocations. Yay! Here's what I would do:

    "You have gained the notice of greater beings than yourself, and they have unveiled for you the dark first steps on the road to power. You gain one of the following options:

    • You gain two warlock invocations, provided neither invocation has a prerequisite
    • You gain one warlock invocation with a prerequisite, provided you satisfy the conditions of that prerequisite


    You may not gain this feat multiple times."
    Last edited by Sparky McDibben; 2019-12-06 at 11:31 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    So how about this:

    Prerequisite: Warlock level 3
    Bonuses:
    1. Increase Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
    2. Gain one invocation of choice from those available to the warlock and for which you qualify.

    OR
    Prerequisite: Warlock level 3
    Bonuses:
    1. Gain two invocations of choice from those available to the warlock and for which you qualify from the following list of pairs:
    Armor of Shadows + One With Shadows, Eldritch Sight + Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Fiendish Vigor + Gift of the Everliving Ones, Mask of Many Faces + Misty Visions, etc.

    How does that look?

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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by carrdrivesyou View Post
    So how about this:

    Prerequisite: Warlock level 3
    Bonuses:
    1. Increase Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
    2. Gain one invocation of choice from those available to the warlock and for which you qualify.

    OR

    Prerequisite: Warlock level 3
    Bonuses:
    1. Gain two invocations of choice from those available to the warlock and for which you qualify from the following list of pairs:

    Armor of Shadows + One With Shadows,
    Eldritch Sight + Eyes of the Rune Keeper,
    Fiendish Vigor + Gift of the Everliving Ones,
    Mask of Many Faces + Misty Visions, etc.

    How does that look?
    Your first one fits the original feat list from PHB a bit better. But I honestly like what you did with the second one. Here's what I suggest for your first one, as a slight edit:

    Feat: Arcane Adept
    Prerequisite: Warlock level 4

    1. Increase Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
    2. Gain one invocation of choice from those available to the warlock and for which you qualify.
    3. Gain one additional cantrip from the Warlock spell list.

    Why level 4? That's the first time one is eligible, and it prevents the vHuman feat at level 1 (which also would not make sense since pact boon is level 3 anyway.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-12-06 at 11:39 AM.
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    I would definitely keep the Warlock levels prerequisite, and probably the "at least 2 warlock levels" suggested, or the Hexblade dip will be even more overpowered than it already is. With those caveats, I'd say the average invocation is slightly weaker than the average feat, so that would be a flavorful and not overpowered option.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Your first one fits the original feat list from PHB a bit better. But I honestly like what you did with the second one. Here's what I suggest for your first one, as a slight edit:

    Feat: Arcane Adept
    Prerequisite: Warlock level 4

    1. Increase Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
    2. Gain one invocation of choice from those available to the warlock and for which you qualify.
    3. Gain one additional cantrip from the Warlock spell list.

    Why level 4? That's the first time one is eligible, and it prevents the vHuman feat at level 1 (which also would not make sense since pact boon is level 3 anyway.
    One invocation and one cantrip...that puts this feat on par with something akin to Spell Sniper, so power-wise, it seems legit. Although, the Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast combo seems a bit overpowered; given the level requirement, it makes more sense. Although, that would make the sun soul monk a bit of a rival.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I would definitely keep the Warlock levels prerequisite, and probably the "at least 2 warlock levels" suggested, or the Hexblade dip will be even more overpowered than it already is. With those caveats, I'd say the average invocation is slightly weaker than the average feat, so that would be a flavorful and not overpowered option.

    I'm not too good with Hexblades, so can you explain this please?

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Basically, taking just one hexblade level allows people to attack with charisma, to have medium armor and shield proficiency, the shield spell, and Hexblade curse (which allows you to have extended crit range and extra damage against one creature per short rest). It's already very powerful as it is for all Cha based characters (and to some other particular builds, like the nuclear wizard).

    Adding to all of this the possibility of not having to get a 2nd level in warlock (which has a somewhat significant opportunity cost) to get access to invocations, allowing them to choose just that one invocation that completes their build, is adding insult to injury.

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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    I'd be more inclined to have it as an epic boon that could be earned.
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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    What I currently have as a homebrew feat is that you get two invocations the first time you take the feat, and one invocation every time thereafter. No requirements. This should, hopefully, balance the feat around taking it once on your way to 20, and then taking it multiple times as epic boons after reaching 20.

    An alternate version of the same feat created as a racial feat for an undead race allows you to take specific invocations, even if you don't meet the requirements, such as One with Shadows or Ghostly Gaze (or you can take any invocation you do qualify for). So you could do a generic feat that gives extra invocations, or a flavored feat that gives extra invocations but allows specific invocations without needing to meet the requirements. Which specific invocations you allow can add some flavor to the feat, and it allows you to cherry pick which invocations you think would be okay for a non-warlock to get.

    I'd probably suggest if you do make a feat that allows specific invocations without needing to meet the requirements, that you don't allow invocations that are specific to a pact boon. Otherwise, you make that invocation available to warlocks with a different pact boon, thus devaluing that specific pact boon.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    You gain one warlock invocation with a prerequisite, provided you satisfy the conditions of that prerequisite.
    All of those are gated behind warlock levels, so that'd be useful for warlocks only.

    And all feats are taken once, as stated on page 165. See elemental adept for the exception.
    Last edited by bid; 2019-12-06 at 11:34 PM.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    All of those are gated behind warlock levels, so that'd be useful for warlocks only.

    And all feats are taken once, as stated on page 165. See elemental adept for the exception.
    There are a couple that have Pact requirements or spell requirements. And I'm AFB but I recall them saying level, not warlock level. And with something like this I find it's best to be explicit.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    One of the major design uses of feats is to allow characters to dip into other classes' abilities.

    Restricting it to Warlock defeats the purpose for me.

    I think it would also be the only feat that differs in power depending on when it is taken due to the prerequisites.

    So something like:

    +1 Charisma
    Gain 1 Invocation that does not have a prerequisite.

    I haven't looked at them all but that is probably fine.
    If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    There are a couple that have Pact requirements or spell requirements. And I'm AFB but I recall them saying level, not warlock level. And with something like this I find it's best to be explicit.
    Anything in the Classes chapter uses class level, as it assumes you are single-classed.
    MC assumes you use each of your classes features independently and separately, as if your other class levels didn't exist.

    Maybe you want your wizard 1 / cleric 16 to cast wish, but it's a big no-no.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Anything in the Classes chapter uses class level, as it assumes you are single-classed.
    MC assumes you use each of your classes features independently and separately, as if your other class levels didn't exist.

    Maybe you want your wizard 1 / cleric 16 to cast wish, but it's a big no-no.
    A load if nonsense. If the designers meant warlock level, they would have said that. For clarification, see the paladin lay on hands ability and the cleric's divine intervention ability.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    A load if nonsense. If the designers meant warlock level, they would have said that. For clarification, see the paladin lay on hands ability and the cleric's divine intervention ability.
    Not only did they mean it, they errata'ed it to make it clear that this is what they meant.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-12-07 at 05:49 PM.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    A load if nonsense. If the designers meant warlock level, they would have said that. For clarification, see the paladin lay on hands ability and the cleric's divine intervention ability.
    Multiclassing is a variant.

    The rules for multiclassing are in the multiclassing rules. All rules outside of that aren't written assuming multiclassing.
    If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    A load if nonsense. If the designers meant warlock level, they would have said that. For clarification, see the paladin lay on hands ability and the cleric's divine intervention ability.
    Right. So you want your wizard 1 / cleric 16 to cast wish?

    There's no point in beating a dead horse, this issue has been resolved a long time ago.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Anderlith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Model it after the Maneuvers Feat. Give them a basic Invocation once a long rest

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Not only did they mean it, they errata'ed it to make it clear that this is what they meant.
    1. The language I deployed was defimitely rude and somewhat confrontational. I'm sorry for that.
    2. I don't have the errata version. Thank you for pointing that out. I find it odd they would miss that when they were fairly clear throughout the rest of the PHB.
    3. This is for Bid, not diplomancer, but your hypothesis doesn't scan. Why would I cast wish when I could use divine intervention? As to the broader question behind your question, I think that's handled by the multiclassing rules, no?

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    3. This is for Bid, not diplomancer, but your hypothesis doesn't scan. Why would I cast wish when I could use divine intervention? As to the broader question behind your question, I think that's handled by the multiclassing rules, no?
    First, DI has a 15% chance of success. Second, wish is a placeholder for any 9th spell. Now as to why it matters...

    If you are wizard 1 / cleric 16, your MC combination gives you the spell slot of a level 17 caster which includes a 9th slot.
    Wish is a 9th spell.
    A wizard's spellcasting feature allows you to add spells to your spellbook, "of a level for which you have spell slots"
    Those 3 points are RAW and the interpretation hangs on: "do you have a 9th spell slot or not?"

    1) If your wizard-self only uses its wizard level for wizard features, you act as any level 1 wizard. You have 2 1st slots and can only add 1st level spells to your spellbook.

    2) If wizard features use your entire character, your wizard 1 has a 9th spell slot (from MC) and can write wish in its spellbook.


    If you allow character level on warlock invocation, you necessarily allow (gate, true resurrection, true polymorph, wish) on character level. Which includes a bard 1 / cleric 1 / druid 13 / sorcerer 1 / wizard 1 character or any other combo with a 9th slot.
    Last edited by bid; 2019-12-07 at 11:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    If you are wizard 1 / cleric 16, your MC combination gives you the spell slot of a level 17 caster which includes a 9th slot.
    Wish is a 9th spell.
    A wizard's spellcasting feature allows you to add spells to your spellbook, "of a level for which you have spell slots"
    [...]
    If you allow character level on warlock invocation, you necessarily allow (gate, true resurrection, true polymorph, wish) on character level. Which includes a bard 1 / cleric 1 / druid 13 / sorcerer 1 / wizard 1 character or any other combo with a 9th slot.
    As far as I'm aware, no one has mentioned anything like this in the thread. It's spelled out pretty clearly that a wizard 1 / cleric 16 can't learn or cast Wish. You're the first person to suggest otherwise, so the only argument you've debunked is your own. It's true that there is ambiguity about this in the Spellcasting feature description, but this ambiguity is specifically addressed and clarified in the section on Multiclassing. No one except you is talking about this, you're the first person to bring it up.

    I think what's being argued right now is if "your level" means your level in that class, or your character level. In the case of warlock invocations, it may not have been clear initially but it's been errata'd that they do, in fact, mean your warlock level.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    As far as I'm aware, no one has mentioned anything like this in the thread.
    Maybe you aren't familiar with reductio ad absurdum. It's a way to demonstrate something by showing the opposite is impossible.

    Allowing character levels for warlock invocations implies that you allow 9th spells to anyone who gained a 9th slot from MC. If you don't think that's absurd...

    Does that ring a bell, or have you never met that kind of proof?
    Last edited by bid; 2019-12-08 at 12:42 AM.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Maybe you aren't familiar with reductio ad absurdum. It's a way to demonstrate something by showing the opposite is impossible.

    Allowing character levels for warlock invocations implies that you allow 9th spells to anyone who gained a 9th slot from MC. If you don't think that's absurd...

    Does that ring a bell, or have you never met that kind of proof?
    Dude, that's condescending. I'm sorry. Let it be.

    The OPs question stands. We have some warlock invocations that are utility and low power and probably would be two to a feat. We have some that are high power and would be one to a feat. I think my initial design works, but only if this is open only to warlocks. We could amend it thusly-wise:

    "If you do not have sufficient warlock levels to qualify for an invocation, you may substitute your total character levels at the DMs discretion.

    If an invocation requires the use of warlock spell slots you do not have, you may only use the spell granted by the invocation once, and regain the ability to cast it after a long rest."

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Maybe you aren't familiar with reductio ad absurdum. It's a way to demonstrate something by showing the opposite is impossible.

    Allowing character levels for warlock invocations implies that you allow 9th spells to anyone who gained a 9th slot from MC. If you don't think that's absurd...

    Does that ring a bell, or have you never met that kind of proof?
    If the Earth was round, then people living in the Southern Hemisphere would fall off. You can't take a demonstrably false example and use it to prove something more ambiguous. It is specifically called out in the rules that a multiclassed character can have 9th level slots but not be able to learn any 9th level spells. This has nothing to do with whether the level requirements for an invocation refer to your character level or warlock level, as until the clarification from the errata, there were no clear rules about this.

    Reductio ad absurdum would require you to find a similar case with similar ambiguity where the ability breaks down if it is allowed to scale with character level rather than class level. The Spellcasting feature would be a good example of this, if the ambiguity wasn't clarified elsewhere in the rules already.

    We already have an example of the opposite with cantrips, which do scale with character level, not class level. This means we have a precedent for abilities to scale with character level rather than class level. Not every ability will work this way, but what it means is that some of them could, and do.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Reductio ad absurdum would require you to find a similar case with similar ambiguity where the ability breaks down if it is allowed to scale with character level rather than class level.
    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Allowing character levels for warlock invocations implies that you allow 9th spells to anyone who gained a 9th slot from MC.
    I'm sorry. I thought I was clear enough the other 2 times.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    If the Earth was round, then people living in the Southern Hemisphere would fall off. You can't take a demonstrably false example and use it to prove something more ambiguous. It is specifically called out in the rules that a multiclassed character can have 9th level slots but not be able to learn any 9th level spells. This has nothing to do with whether the level requirements for an invocation refer to your character level or warlock level, as until the clarification from the errata, there were no clear rules about this.

    Reductio ad absurdum would require you to find a similar case with similar ambiguity where the ability breaks down if it is allowed to scale with character level rather than class level. The Spellcasting feature would be a good example of this, if the ambiguity wasn't clarified elsewhere in the rules already.

    We already have an example of the opposite with cantrips, which do scale with character level, not class level. This means we have a precedent for abilities to scale with character level rather than class level. Not every ability will work this way, but what it means is that some of them could, and do.
    Cantrips only scale with character level because the rules on pg 164 say so.

    There is nothing on pages 163 and 164 that says Warlock Invocation prerequisites are character level, so they aren't.

    I will repeat: The rules for multiclassing are on pages 163 and 164. They are variant rules. The rest of the rules are not written to refer to the multiclassing rules. They are not part of the base game.
    If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.

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    Default Re: Extra Invocation as Feat for Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    Cantrips only scale with character level because the rules on pg 164 say so.

    There is nothing on pages 163 and 164 that says Warlock Invocation prerequisites are character level, so they aren't.

    I will repeat: The rules for multiclassing are on pages 163 and 164. They are variant rules. The rest of the rules are not written to refer to the multiclassing rules. They are not part of the base game.
    While I agree with you, it's also true that some abilities look like they are written to specify your class levels (like Paladin Lay on Hands), and others don't specify it (like the warlock invocations before the errata). There is some room for confusion.

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