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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Does this work against scry & die?

    I'm trying to figure out how a bad guy in my game has blocked scry and die. I read the following regarding conjuration spells:
    A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
    Teleportation is a conjuration space. If you occupy each 5-foot-by-5-foot area in your dwelling with a thread hanging from the ceiling that reach the floor, that means that all the available spaces are taken and the teleportees cannot teleport inside the thread, since the spell cannot push the thread aside. Here's the same thing with ropes:
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    Would this work against scry and die? Living in such dwelling would be uncomfortable, but you can have a table, for instance, without the ropes, if there is not enough space to teleport under the table and the table couldn't support medium creatures' weight including halflings and gnomes.

    This tactic would be problematic against very small casters.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    I don't think this works, at least not if you intend for the space to actually be usable. Either the ropes occupy the space (in which case the inhabitant of the room can't get around them) or they don't (in which case they don't block teleportation).
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    there are aéready anti teleport effects from spells.....and dungeonscape has anchor(ing?) mist as well....

    Though, you could always make stone spike or other hazards filled hallways and use ropes/spiderclimp something to travel them.....

    could also trap the whole halway/room whatever with the whole floor covered in pressure plates wich close ALL the exits..... add-on traps are optional.

    Edit: also, how does teleport relate to scry and die? the two are two totally different aproach ( at most, only sharing the scrying part)
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Well maybe: the spell teleport [conj] (PH 293) explicitly says, "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible." In that quotation the word teleportation is not italicized--that's teleportation in general. The DM can just say No to teleportation effects in any area and claim, "It's strong magical energy prevents teleportation." The wizard might've chosen the cave in the question for precisely that reason, although that may seem contrived to the players.


    For a pure by RAW one....all you need is a place with no surface capable of supporting any weight. You will need a way to use the space yourself, like levatation or maybe even ropes hanging from the ceiling. Then you just need a surface that can't hold much weight, like a paper floor or thin wood or glass or whatever. A paper floor is not a surface that can support a teleporting creatures weight, so they can't teleport there.

    Smoke, fog, darkness and more then anything bright light work to block the 'scry' part...maybe. Bright light is the best as there is nothing in the rules that lets someone see through it.

    Filling a location with creatures, like animals or plants might be able to block teleportation. Though you might need a wood block animate object that takes up the whole five foot square and move.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    There is a version of this idea that does work. If your bad guy has a way to get earth glide and lacks any sense of claustrophobia, he could work in "rooms" that are 5' cubic areas and just earth glide from one to the other. Then when he's scried on, all anyone sees is an enclosed area that's occupied by him. This also puts the kibosh on a variety of other unwanted visitors. Just make sure to include air vents.

    Other ideas:

    - Anything that obscures the vision of a scrier but not the bad guy will also prevent the scrier from studying the location carefully. The most obvious is Mage's Private Sanctum.
    - Any of a wide variety of anti teleportation spells, such as Anticipate Teleportation, act as a deterrent. If I were a PC and scried a bad guy in a small room I'd be nervous just pouncing right on top of him.
    - Being on the move prevents careful study of a particular location, bonus points if you're mid-air.
    - Go old school and invest in lead sheeting, which still blocks scrying.
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Droid Tony View Post
    Well maybe: the spell teleport [conj] (PH 293) explicitly says, "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible." In that quotation the word teleportation is not italicized--that's teleportation in general. The DM can just say No to teleportation effects in any area and claim, "It's strong magical energy prevents teleportation." The wizard might've chosen the cave in the question for precisely that reason, although that may seem contrived to the players.
    Heck, you don't even need to make it magical energy. There could be strong physical energy because its near a waterfall, under a mountain, next to a wrestling arena etc. I usually restrict teleporting to places deep underground, justified by all the potential energy of the earth above them - and that's why villains often build their lairs underground.

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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Gaining (and even thereafter losing) the God-Blooded of Vecna template grants immunity to divinations against you or to gain information about you. It pretty harshly counters the scrying part of scry-and-die tactics.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Just run (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation.

    You get 1 or 3 rounds to bail out from the more common scry&die methods, no matter where you are, and it's online as early as 5th level (with a terrible radius - try to stay in small rooms at low levels).

    As a mundane? I dunno. The ropes thing I probably wouldn't let fly. But filling your fortress full of paper mache boulders you have to push around might work. Or just surround yourself with slaves all the time.
    Edit: Or pay.. uh, 5400gp? for the 1/day commandword item of the same.
    Last edited by Elkad; 2019-12-07 at 02:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I don't think this works, at least not if you intend for the space to actually be usable. Either the ropes occupy the space (in which case the inhabitant of the room can't get around them) or they don't (in which case they don't block teleportation).
    They occupy a space, but you can push them aside. You can't do that when you teleport.

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    They might have every space occupied by uniformly distributed minions, because you can pass through ally spaces everyone can still move around, as long as they take care to occupy every 5 foot square space. I think that would block teleport, no?
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Technically, teleportation and similar conjurations that move or create something in a given space have to displace the air that occupies that space before the effect happens. I'm pretty firmly in the camp of game physics and real physics being only superficially similar but that's one detail you just can't get around.

    That being the case, it can be reasonably argued that if the rope or similar hanging decoration occupies most of the space that the teleportation can simply push them aside. Otherwise you couldn't even teleport into a patch of forest that's a little overgrown or a foggy moor. I really like the idea but I just can't see ruling that it works without either being inconsistent in that ruling or breaking teleportation effects altogether.

    That said, SBG is your friend. Lead-lined walls are only 1000 gp per stronghold space and inscriptions of vacancy block scrying even harder. Forbiddance is a permanent spell that blocks -all- teleportation into or within the warded area. A bit of custom wondrous architecture based on dimensional lock will also accomplish a no-teleport zone.

    If you want a low-cost teleport block, you'll have to address the "strong physical or magical energy" clause and make the BBEG's somewhere suitable.
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Thank you for the feedback so far. Can the bad guy just have a few inches of water in the room? Water is not a surface that can support the teleporting PCs. The PCs can't see the hard surface under the water, and they can't teleport in air.

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Dahl View Post
    Thank you for the feedback so far. Can the bad guy just have a few inches of water in the room? Water is not a surface that can support the teleporting PCs. The PCs can't see the hard surface under the water, and they can't teleport in air.
    Unless it's deep enough to impede movement, I'd apply the same logic I did for the hanging obstructions. If the dude's willing to wear waders most of the time so the water up to his knees isn't a problem, then you've got something. Dude won't need to worry about leg-day at the gym either.
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Unless it's deep enough to impede movement, I'd apply the same logic I did for the hanging obstructions. If the dude's willing to wear waders most of the time so the water up to his knees isn't a problem, then you've got something. Dude won't need to worry about leg-day at the gym either.
    It's a deal!

    The bad guy is suffering from a serious mental illness, and he stays in a small room which he has guarded against magical intrusion to the best of his ability. He lives in the basement of a family. The family is forced to feed the bad guy, he has threatened to kill everyone unless he is provided for and in absolute secrecy. Based on this thread, the floor of the basement is full of water. That will make scry & teleport impossible.

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    But not Scry and "Enter other attack Mode".

    Just saying.
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    This would be absurdly expensive, but - suppose you were to get a room that had its floor covered in permanent or continuous Reverse Gravity. The floor isn't capable of supporting the teleport-ee. Build bookcases and shelves into the walls so that you can reach over and get whatever you want (so no tables - which might support somebody - would be necessary).

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Barring some unstated ability, dude's going to die of hypothermia if he lives knee-deep in water.
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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Barring some unstated ability, dude's going to die of hypothermia if he lives knee-deep in water.
    What if it's body temperature water?
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Hmm... aren't there items here and there that ward against teleportation effects? I think there was one in the Shackled City adventure path - all though I think that one might have been an artifact.

    How big is the whole place? And how high level? If the BBEG has access to Mind Blank, that kills off the "scry" of "scry-and-die" - heck, even Nondetection is probably better than nothing, I bet.
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    That said, SBG is your friend.
    What's SBG?

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    This would be absurdly expensive, but - suppose you were to get a room that had its floor covered in permanent or continuous Reverse Gravity. The floor isn't capable of supporting the teleport-ee. Build bookcases and shelves into the walls so that you can reach over and get whatever you want (so no tables - which might support somebody - would be necessary).
    They would just teleport onto the ceiling in that case.
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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Does this work against scry & die?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    They would just teleport onto the ceiling in that case.
    Not if the ceiling is higher than the effect.
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