The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calendar?

    So we Know Mr. Giant in the Playground based some/all/a tiny amount on B5.

    So, I think I've nailed a few things down.


    Roy is clearly John J. Sheridan. Died, came back, see's spirits. Finishing a fight he didn't start.

    MitD is clearly Kosh/a Vorlon. (Everyone immanently knows what he is when he is seen, no one understands what he says, risks his own life to save his allies, wears a encounter suit to prevent himself from being seen. More details on all the threads speculating about MitD.

    Haley is Susan Ivanova. Bad ass, joins for the wrong reasons, lots of family history.

    Vaarsuvius is Lyta Alexander. Made a deal with powerful outside forces, turned into the ultimate weapon, and can never truly escape their hold on V.


    Belkar is Michael Garibaldi. I don't even have to explain this. They LOOK identical. Same hair. Same face. Same frown. Same Anger issues. Same eyebrows. Same BUTTON RIGHT BELOW THEIR NECK

    Spoiler: Identical I tell you
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    Julio Scoundrél: Marcus.... Took me a while to figure that out.

    Durkon Thundershield/Vampire Durkon: Londo Mollari: Cast out and unwanted by his people. A joke. Wanting nothing more then to do his duty and see his people be what they used to be. Achieving power, only to realize in his absence darkness has taken over his world. Speaking with a funny accent even though no one else does.

    G'Kar......honestly I have no idea. O-Chul??????

    Elan: Vir Cotto. Funny, useless, grows in power and responsibility. Eventually the real leader of the group.

    Mr. Scruffy: Zack Allan

    Xykon: Jha'dur / Deathwalker


    Flumphs: Zathras

    Lord Shojo: Brother Theo Leader of a religious order. All the people working for him are crazy brainwashed killers & religious zealots.

    Miko Miyazaki: Brother Edward, the black rose killer

    Minister Malack.....Alfred Bester
    Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruo; 2019-12-07 at 01:42 PM.
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    And the women come out to cut up what remains
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    On one hand, you have spent way too much time time thinking about this. On the other hand, I think you've exposed the true identity of Belkar.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    This forum is making me want to check that show out.

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    Lightbulb Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    On one hand, you have spent way too much time time thinking about this. On the other hand, I think you've exposed the true identity of Belkar.

    I had to stop myself.

    I had both wikis pulled up, and was well on the way to matching every single named character...

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    This forum is making me want to check that show out.

    I suggest you start the way I did. With the Movie: In the Beginning.

    Actually shot much later, around season 5, or maybe after the show was over but when TNT picked it up for syndication. TNT made a huge deal out of the show, even though it had 1 season left.

    It tells the story of why earth built 5 Babylon stations.

    When the first 1, 2, 3 blew up before going operation, and the 4th disappear....



    ************************************************** *******


    HOLY CRAP

    THE SNARL / THE PORTAL is Sector 14 and the tacyon portal

    Babylon 4 is the other world that Blackwing sees

    Which means Blackwing is Valen
    Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruo; 2019-12-07 at 02:12 PM.
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    When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
    And the women come out to cut up what remains
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Ooh it's about a space station? That sounds fun.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Ooh it's about a space station? That sounds fun.
    No.....Picture this. An Old man. One who makes Lord Shojo look young. In all the magisty of the greatest king, sitting in his personal quarters....stewing over a life lived, over choices made. Two children are playing, their nanny running after them, for it is forbidden to be in the royal chambers, the punishment is death.

    He stops the children. He asks the boy: "What do you want?"


    I want a stories about great battles and wars and bravery and heroes and villeins.


    I see, and what does your sister want.

    Nothing

    *sister kicks boy*

    "She says she wants a true story."

    Very well, then I will give you both want you want, a STORY OF GREAT deeds, about armies of light and soldiers of darkness, about the places where they lived -- and fought, and loved and died. About Great Empires, Terrible Mistakes. A true Story. You see I was there, in the beginning.....


    **

    OF course, the introduction to every season would contradict me saying no...
    Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruo; 2019-12-07 at 02:38 PM.
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    When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
    And the women come out to cut up what remains
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling.
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    I’d say the best comparison for Redcloak is an evil version of G’Kar. Part of an oppressed group, saw his family murdered by their oppressors, wants vengeance against his enemies and safety for his people...he’s analagous to what you’d get if G’Kar, rather than Londo, had chosen to work with Morden.

    While Lyta’s an obvious analogy to V because they’re both very powerful, I think Londo might be a better comparison: both were highly ambitious, made a deal with evil beings in order to attain power (political in Londo’s case, magical in V’s), committed genocide, and came to regret their actions but were unable to escape the condequences.

    B5 is definitely worth watching. If you don’t start with In the Beginning (it’s a good starting point, but is also packed with spoilers for some of the show’s long-running mysteries), I’d suggest starting with the second season. Seasons 2-4 are the best ones.
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2019-12-07 at 02:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’d say the best comparison for Redcloak is an evil version of G’Kar. Part of an oppressed group, saw his family murdered by their oppressors, wants vengeance against his enemies and safety for his people...he’s analagous to what you’d get if G’Kar, rather than Londo, had chosen to work with Morden.

    While Lyta’s an obvious analogy to V because they’re both very powerful, I think Londo might be a better comparison: both were highly ambitious made a deal with evil beings in order to attain power (political in Londo’s case, magical in V’s), committed genocide, and came to regret their actions but were unable to escape the condequences.

    B5 is definitely worth watching. If you don’t start with In the Beginning (it’s a good starting point, but is also packed with spoilers for some of the show’s long-running mysteries), I’d suggest starting with the second season. Seasons 2-4 are the best ones.
    Okay, so I seriously considered Londo for V....ah, hell, you're right. V is clearly Londo, *in Londo Voice* it all lines up quite neatly....but it is too simple....

    Ask yourself WHO the heck is Durkon?

    First we have Durkon as Londo in season 1 & 2. Pathetic.

    Then comes Mr. Morden. The Evil Vampire/Cleric that eventually turns him. They were friends, the shadows/vampire kept their word, but eventally the debt had to be paid. Londo wanted an ally, Durkon wanted a like minded cleric. They both closed their eyes, willingly to the danger.

    Londo never actually ordered Genocide, he tried to stop it, he just stood aside while others did evil. V did, personally. I would say that means V can't be Londo. Londo's sins are of a different sort.
    Durkon stood by, and watched as many were killed by the shadow/vampire that controlled him.
    For most of the 2nd Naran War Londo was trapped, unable to control events, watching them happen. I would say


    ****
    G'Kar....was a pretty lost soul at the start. He had a lot of growth. Some of the best philosophy... As has redcloak....his people were murdered constantly and.....

    Yep. G'Kar could be Redcloak. I was thinking to narrowly, maybe.

    BUT.......

    REDCLOAK Could Be Lyta. Normal not really powerful cleric/telepath. Gets Red Cloak & transformed by his god/Transformed into super powerful weapon by vorlons. Taken advantage of by her allies/friends. Trying to build something better for her/his people. Eventually realizes that only violence will stop the oppression of psi corp sapphire guard.......
    Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruo; 2019-12-07 at 03:18 PM.
    Official Kosh of the Vorlon in the dark fan club

    When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
    And the women come out to cut up what remains
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling.
    Spoiler
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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Is it sad that I knew exactly where this was going before I even finished reading the thread title?

    The answer to the title's question is obviously...

    No. I can't say it. We're all thinking it, but it's become such a meme that pointing out how overplayed it is becoming a meme unto itself. Alas! I must throw myself upon the mercy of the Grey Council my fellow forumites and beg forgiveness!

    So instead let's just say that Morgana is Redcloak himself in drag, because that's funny, too.
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2019-12-07 at 03:00 PM.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Sooo, what kind of books would you compare Babylon 5 to? OOTS? Hitchhiker's Guide? Alliance-Union books? Ender series? Hainish series? Something else??

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruo View Post
    I suggest you start the way I did. With the Movie: [I]In the Beginning.
    I disagree with this, on two accounts: The movie assumes you're familiar with the world and universe and people and does not really go into introducing them. And secondly, it assumes you are familiar with certain revelations of the first three seasons, and watching it first can ruin the surprise of some of them.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    I disagree with this, on two accounts: The movie assumes you're familiar with the world and universe and people and does not really go into introducing them. And secondly, it assumes you are familiar with certain revelations of the first three seasons, and watching it first can ruin the surprise of some of them.
    I definitely agree with you. Better to watch B5 in the order it was produced (which is to say, except for the pilot movie The Gathering leave the movies until you've finished season 4.

    In the Beginning in particular... I'm kind of surprised it works as an intro the series at all. Forget spoiling main series plot twists, there's stuff in there that really makes no sense to include except to pander to people who've seen the series. Just as an example, there's a cutaway in one scene that just kind of rattles my immersion in the story every time because it is such a blatant shout-out to an event in the series proper. So it seems a bit odd to me that all the self-referential bits wouldn't just be confusing and off-putting to a someone new to the franchise.

    Now, I can see a case for skipping The Gathering. The bulk of it ends up being irrelevant to the main plot, some of the characterization and world-building is actually contradicted by the series proper, and the writing has a tendency to ramble. (It aired just shy of a year before the series proper premiered, so I guess they were trying to build up viewer anticipation in an effort to keep WB from backing out at the last minute?) Anyway, there are one or two things in there that do factor into the show's long-running plot threads, and it is a good little film, despite being shaky on its feet here and there. So I, personally, would say watch it, but I can see why others might tell you not to bother.

    As for skipping season 1? Eh... I wouldn't recommend it, personally. It suffers in the memory of us fans a bit because it is, almost literally all set-up and no payoff. But I think its done well, and I don't think the later seasons read quite as well without the buildup. Compared to, say Star Trek: The Next Generation (which in its defense got sidelined by a writers' strike right out of the gate), Babylon 5 finds its stride fairly quickly, so it's not like you've got a long slog through dozens of "No really, I swear it gets better" episodes before you can get a good sense of if it will appeal to you or not. Do the later seasons have more polish? Of course, but I don't think the difference in quality is stark enough to outweigh the "What the heck is even going on here?" factor of trying to pick up all these story threads in the middle.

    Anyway, with regards to the actual topic, I'd actually say Elan seems (to me) to be closer to Marcus than anyone else. Yeah, he's similar to Vir in that both are the "naive, bumbling fool with a heart of gold" of their respective casts, but I feel like, Marcus's unflaggingly sunny disposition and generally being able to cheer up his allies even as he annoys them seems the more important analogue. I guess, if you take Elan in OOTS #0001 and Vir in Episode 1, Season 1, they're a close fit, but they diverge over the course of their story arcs, and Elan circa #1180 to me, is a good match for Marcus. Yes, Marcus is smarter and snarkier, but he's still a goofy, fun-loving adventurer who can somehow make his compatriots smile no matter how dire the situation seems to get. While Vir does retain most of his initial idealism and conscience, he sobers up a lot more in terms of demeanor and temperament. Yeah, there are still gags involving him, but they become very much the exception rather than the rule, while Marcus always seems to be grinning is ears off at any given moment.
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2019-12-08 at 01:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    I agree with pretty much everything Grey Watcher said.

    The Gathering is... well yeah. It's main plot is referenced a few times in the main show (but more in passing and not as anything you need to understand) and one of the actors that didn't make it into the actual show, will make a surprise return somewhere down the line. This is offset by the fact that yes, certain things in that movie utterly contradict things that happen in the show. Personallities (of at least Delenn and G'Kar are vastly different than we get to know them too). Not to talk about some make-up choices for certain aliens (Delenn and G'Kar once again come to mind). This is an easy one to skip if you want, without missing much. But if you watch it, keep in mind that the show itself is going to be different, so if you don't like it, keep watching. It will get better.

    Season 1 I certainly would NOT skip. Granted, unlike Season 2 and following it does not have much of an overaching plot yet. At least not one you see, until you rewatch it with the knowledge of Season 2-4 under your belt. But it sets up things. It shows the world. It foreshadows certain, later revelations and twists. Withotu Season 1 some of those will seem to just come out of nowhere. On a rerun? Sure feel free to skip the boring episodes, or the entire season. On the first time? No, watch it.

    ANd now that he mentioned it, yes Elan is totally Marcus.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    ANd now that he mentioned it, yes Elan is totally Marcus.
    then he is dead.....
    Official Kosh of the Vorlon in the dark fan club

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    I’ve been trying to figure out which OOTS character is most like Delenn.

    Who is Delenn, at her core, during the five seasons of B5 (setting aside darker actions in her past)? She is deeply principled, and willing to die for her principles. This goes beyond willingness to die for a cause or a purpose; in “Confessions and Lamentations”, she is willing to risk death in order to show compassion to the dying, even knowing she has no ability to save them. She is intensely determined, and unbreakable in the face of physical suffering. She loves her people but will set herself against them when they are wrong. She extends compassion and understanding even to enemies (“Ceremonies of Light and Dark”). She pursues peace between her people and their former enemies even in the face of hostility from both sides.

    I’d say she’s most like O-Chul. (This draws heavily on O-Chul’s characterization in HTPGHS).

    EDIT: This makes Miko rather representative of the Minbari warrior caste as a whole
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2019-12-08 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruo View Post
    then he is dead.....
    Spoiler: Silly, Obscure, Late Series Lore
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    You mean cryogenically frozen on the point of death.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    This forum is making me want to check that show out.
    It’s made me want to do that for a while now as well. If only I could find the time.


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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Wait you’re supposed to watch The Gathering at the beginning of s1 rather than the end??

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’ve been trying to figure out which OOTS character is most like Delenn.

    Who is Delenn, at her core, during the five seasons of B5 (setting aside darker actions in her past)? She is deeply principled, and willing to die for her principles. This goes beyond willingness to die for a cause or a purpose; in “Confessions and Lamentations”, she is willing to risk death in order to show compassion to the dying, even knowing she has no ability to save them. She is intensely determined, and unbreakable in the face of physical suffering. She loves her people but will set herself against them when they are wrong. She extends compassion and understanding even to enemies (“Ceremonies of Light and Dark”). She pursues peace between her people and their former enemies even in the face of hostility from both sides.

    I’d say she’s most like O-Chul. (This draws heavily on O-Chul’s characterization in HTPGHS).

    EDIT: This makes Miko rather representative of the Minbari warrior caste as a whole

    Oh....that would be hard to argue.

    Except the Edit. That would make Miko Neroon...Which makes sense, both died in an attempt to keep their people safe, but their final act did not atone for their sins, and others had to continue to muddle through.
    Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruo; 2019-12-09 at 06:15 AM.
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    When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
    And the women come out to cut up what remains
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Yes, Miko as Neroon fits very well.

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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    I'm honestly not sure about all those similarities.

    My dear Ivanova was more straightforward than Haley.

    There some similarities between V and Delenn. First, the Minnbari could be seen as an alternate version of space elves (i also always thought their were similar to vulcans, who also could be seen as space elves), and Delenn in her past was perfectly capable of being too ambitious and vindictive. She also tend to be one of the most intellectual.

    What about Lennier?

    I really don't see Julio = Marcus.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’d suggest starting with the second season. Seasons 2-4 are the best ones.
    Skipping season 1 may make some other things harder to understand later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruo View Post
    It tells the story of why earth built 5 Babylon stations.
    Well, obviously because... The Babylon Project was our last best hope for peace.


    Gosh, i do need to rewatch the whole show.
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    Default Re: Who is Morgana le Fey *spoilers maybe?** Maybe we can get a B5 OOTS Mash up calen

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    I'm honestly not sure about all those similarities.

    My dear Ivanova was more straightforward than Haley.

    There some similarities between V and Delenn. First, the Minnbari could be seen as an alternate version of space elves (i also always thought their were similar to vulcans, who also could be seen as space elves), and Delenn in her past was perfectly capable of being too ambitious and vindictive. She also tend to be one of the most intellectual.

    What about Lennier?

    I really don't see Julio = Marcus.


    Skipping season 1 may make some other things harder to understand later on.


    Well, obviously because... The Babylon Project was our last best hope for peace.


    Gosh, i do need to rewatch the whole show.
    You'll find Ivanova is more complex then you remember.

    And for the record, I plan on keeping this going until LadyEowyn and myself reach agreement, or the Giant comes along and confirms or debunks.
    Last edited by Mitth'raw'nuruo; 2020-01-01 at 05:16 PM.
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