Character for Descent into Avernus (to go with specific party)

[Willie the Duck]

Okay, here's the scoop: After the collapse of our last campaign, we're starting up a new campaign. The DM has decided to run Descent into Avernus. The other players have chosen to play human (variety unknown) barbarian (standard Str-based mostly-melee), air genasi life cleric, and elven (variety unknown) wizard*. I am thinking Ranger or Fighter/Rogue. I got 14, 13, 13, 12, 11, 11 for stats, pre-racial adjustment.
*this guy is known for drinking deeply at the well of defense and direct damage, so we cannot assume that by himself we will have arcane utility magic covered.

Because of all the odd stats, I am considering going non-variant human, with stats 12 14 15 13 14 12. Feats/ASIs would be resilient:Con, Sharpshooter, and Dex+2 three times (order determined by how things go, and of course we probably wouldn't get that high. Going Gloomstalker would get me the darkvision I lack, and pick up Wis saves as well. The 13 Int would allow me to dip wizard for a level or 3 to pick up utility magic and a few spells that don't invoke saves or require to-hits (so Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Shadow Blade, Misty Step, etc.) and I also could dip fighter for combat or rogue for skills.

Based on the same logic as this thread, I'd like no spoilers, but if you know something like 'picking a bunch of fire magic will make your character unplayable,' or 'banking on being able to buy half-plate at level 6 is a nonstarter,' or, 'don't expect magic bows or finesse weapons to show up in the adventure,' those are reasonable things to mention.

With that in mind, what are peoples' thoughts on this character idea? If not a good idea, what does one suggest to go along with this group. Only no goes (based on having played recently) are paladins and clerics (despite those probably being a good fit for an anti-devil/demon adventure). Thanks in advance!

[No1ofIntrst]

Depending on what you like, a bard (and maybe a little rogue if you want) could work pretty well with that party (giving it a CHA based character). You can help supplement the Wizards casting and help give buffs to the barb, letting them hit more (If they are Human, they probably chose GWM at level one, so they will really like the plus to hit from Inspiration). I would suggest Lore, as it is the most powerful, but honestly, any of the sub-classes would work (save maybe the melee ones). You also are the ultimate skill monkey, as you get lots of proficiencies and none of your base stats are too low.

[Willie the Duck]

Depending on what you like, a bard (and maybe a little rogue if you want) could work pretty well with that party (giving it a CHA based character). You can help supplement the Wizards casting and help give buffs to the barb, letting them hit more (If they are Human, they probably chose GWM at level one, so they will really like the plus to hit from Inspiration). I would suggest Lore, as it is the most powerful, but honestly, any of the sub-classes would work (save maybe the melee ones). You also are the ultimate skill monkey, as you get lots of proficiencies and none of your base stats are too low.

Not a bad other option. I've always tried to have bards start with a 16+ charisma, as inspiration is one of those benefits where you actually get to do it more with a higher stat. The ranger I have above does have the limits of decent stats, but almost no skills. What race and distribution would you do with a lore, glamour, or valor bard?

Anyone else have any other advice or suggestions?

[Bel-Torac]

Your party looks pretty solid so far. Your ranged attack build is good. Rogue or ranger is good, more dps will help.

I would not recommend bard since most of the enemies you will encounter are immune to charm, which is their main weapon. If you want to be a sword bard and melee, it could work though since you will be making melee attacks most of the time.

[No1ofIntrst]

Playing through Descent, I didn't see too many enemies immune to charm. Honestly, it's not even the most important thing for bards (other than suggestion, which is really fun), and when you do run into guys who are charm immune they are late enough for different types of spells (banishment, polymorph, etc.) to be used. I would suggest Lore, as it helps you even more with skills (and this mod has quite a few), as well as magical secrets letting you take a couple of spells (I'd recommend Counterspell (you get to add 1/2 of your proficiency bonus thanks to jack of all trades) and a mass damage spell (but not fireball, as almost all of the creatures are immune/resistant). I would suggest going Half-Elf Bard, with a stat spread of 11, 13, 13, 11, 12, 14, ending up being 11, 14, 13, 12, 12, 16 after racial increases. You can take resilient (con) to bump up your odd Con score, or just drop Int by one for more Con at the start if you want to have a higher Charisma, or want to take another feat. You will probably want to focus on nerfing the enemies (bane is amazing for a 1st level slot) on your fist turn, then just spamming Vicious Mockery (this will help keep some of your more front line characters alive) and Inspiration, maybe throwing in a couple of Healing Words if stuff goes badly.

[Willie the Duck]

The downside of bard (particularly non-valor bard, and especially when one has to play the stats rolled) is the flimsiness. Yes, I know, that's what the barbarian and cleric are for (plus inspiration and running away, etc.), but we already have a wizard occupying that spot and it's a long ways until 4th level and Moderately Armored feat or the like. I guess if the first part of the campaign is decidedly skill-based and social enough, it might be worth making it work, I'm just nervous about the possibility. Out of the two ideas (ranger with some mage or rogue dips or bard) what do people think, and are there other ideas that people might suggest as third+ options?

Thanks!

[No1ofIntrst]

I would personally recommend an Eldritch Knight over a Ranger for this adventure, as Hell is not one of the favored Terrain options, and they just generally feel out of place in an adventure like this. However, If your DM allows Revised Ranger, I would suggest taking that, as it is both way better (both in terms of combat and out of combat) then the original, as well as being more able to fit into hell. Most of the combat

Spoiler

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Up to around level 5

is avoidable with good social characters, so a bard does have that going for it, as well as the fact that demons are intrinsically willing to strike up a deal in most cases. Mostly though, it really depends on what kind of person you are or want to play. If you like talking and are outgoing, a bard can be more fun. If you don't want to have to be too talkative, a ranger might work better.

[Evaar]

I would recommend a Hexbow (Hexblade Warlock using a Bow via Improved Pact Weapon invocation). It doesn't come fully online until level 3, but it's still a functioning warlock before that.

Go half-elf, 16 cha, 14 dex, 14 con.

Your group doesn't have a Charisma character in it yet, based on what you described. Given that "making deals" is likely to come up in a campaign about devils, you probably want one. Hexbow can provide the Darkvision you want (via half-elf, but also improved with Devil's Sight), plus very solid ranged damage, plus some big guns magic in a pinch. You don't get all the support you'd get out of Bard, but you get a lot more damage and you can still qualify for an Inspiring Leader pick. You might not be able to keep up with an archer Fighter, but you gain many more options in exchange without taking on all the bookkeeping of a pure caster. If your standard turn is to fire two arrows, you should be fine.

And keep in mind Improved Pact Weapon makes your bow magical. So even if you can't rely on finding a magic bow, you've brought your own. That should be handy against the "resistant to non-magical" types.

[Theaitetos]

I'd recommend a warlock, as your party should have someone with good CHA stats, someone good at making deals, and someone who can actually speak & read the local language (really small spoiler: Infernal).

The warlock is very adaptable to the circumstances in your party and you have the chance to pick a pact boon depending on the way the others play. If your party wizard really has zero arcane utility (although he should have with all the rituals) you could go
1) Tomelock: Sacred Flame is a good cantrip, +all rituals in the game
2) Bladelock: if your party needs more melee power, or
3) Chainlock: an Imp familiar is always awesome, and even better "at home"; and if you reach level 15, the Chains of Carceri invocation is immensely powerful!

As for the race, either the classic half-elf (third language: infernal) or a variant tiefling (fire resistance, infernal language).

[Willie the Duck]

I would personally recommend an Eldritch Knight over a Ranger for this adventure, as Hell is not one of the favored Terrain options, and they just generally feel out of place in an adventure like this. However, If your DM allows Revised Ranger, I would suggest taking that, as it is both way better (both in terms of combat and out of combat) then the original, as well as being more able to fit into hell. Most of the combat

Spoiler

Show

Up to around level 5

is avoidable with good social characters, so a bard does have that going for it, as well as the fact that demons are intrinsically willing to strike up a deal in most cases. Mostly though, it really depends on what kind of person you are or want to play. If you like talking and are outgoing, a bard can be more fun. If you don't want to have to be too talkative, a ranger might work better.

I think taking this ranger character will be predicated on either revised or the recent class alternate options UA ranger. The UA's Favored Foe and Deft Explorer abilities in particular would be overwhelmingly better. And if Druidic Warrior fighting style to pick up cantrips (Guidance for the skills and Shillelagh to defeat non-magic weapon resistance) were on the table, it would be a hard decision on that vs ranged.

Overall a bard is a great idea for the situation (we need skills, we need support), except for the 'excepts' -- we already have a fragile caster, my stats are well-positioned to be durable at about 8th level, my group is not the most cooperative at capitalizing on some of the things a bard does best, etc.

I would recommend a Hexbow (Hexblade Warlock using a Bow via Improved Pact Weapon invocation). It doesn't come fully online until level 3, but it's still a functioning warlock before that. Go half-elf, 16 cha, 14 dex, 14 con.

First and foremost, thank you, as outside of knowledge you could not have, this is great advice. This covers our bases very well. The thing is, we're very deliberately not doing 'this kind of thing.' The campaign we just finished included my half-elf paladin with PAM, a wizard who had cajoled the DM into a custom spell that made the 15-minute workday incredibly hard to circumvent, a hexblade-chainlock where the DM ruled that the imp familiar did give the warlock advantage on spell saves, and a swashbuckler rogue with at-will 60' flying that the DM had a crazy hard time pinning down. In response to this, we are trying to get back a little to the feel of D&D from back when we cut our teeth*, and a half-elven hexbladelock in this new adventure would be met with eye-rolls and 'didn't we just say we were sick of this?!'
*plus we've found that us being crazy powerful, and the DM raising the difficulty bar to match, just conspired to make those times we miscalculated risks become TPKs instead of 'lose one PC' type situations. Powerful often isn't powerful, it just raises the stakes on both sides.

I'd recommend a warlock, as your party should have someone with good CHA stats, someone good at making deals, and someone who can actually speak & read the local language (really small spoiler: Infernal).
…
As for the race, either the classic half-elf (third language: infernal) or a variant tiefling (fire resistance, infernal language).

Definitely having cha-based skills would be a perk, along with some of the disguise-like stuff and other invocations. I wouldn't mind a tiefling warlock (which variant were you thinking?), but we did just have a very memorable one last campaign, so that one hits the 'we just did that' barrier, which you also couldn't have known.

[Theaitetos]

Definitely having cha-based skills would be a perk, along with some of the disguise-like stuff and other invocations. I wouldn't mind a tiefling warlock (which variant were you thinking?), but we did just have a very memorable one last campaign, so that one hits the 'we just did that' barrier, which you also couldn't have known.

Tiefling variant? I'd say Dispater or Glasya (+2CHA, +1DEX) or Winged Tiefling. If your party is concerned about flying characters (like that swashbuckler), then Winged is not a good idea, however the Air Genasi has a flight/Levitate skill already. If you take one of the demonic variants, you can maybe skip the Disguise Self invocation (if 1 cast per day with Tiefling ability is enough). If you really like roleplaying and character struggles, then take a Zariel Tiefling.

As for Warlock variants? For roleplay challenges the Fiend is the best patron, although it's weak in this setting (fire damage, capstone Hurl Through Hell is useless). The Archfey patron is strong (Faerie Fire is great) and all the skills should work with the frightened option (instead of charmed). And the escape skill and resistance to charm skill come in handy too (since you're not a half-elf). I would also have said the Celestial patron, however 1) those fire skills are wasted (though all that radiant damage is really sweet) and 2) the healing is infringing upon the Life Cleric; you could try to convince your DM to change the class a bit if you select an Evil God (from the Abyss) as patron. If you want to go Holy Caster Warrior, an Aasimar Divine Soul / Hexblade would be better.

[Evaar]

First and foremost, thank you, as outside of knowledge you could not have, this is great advice. This covers our bases very well. The thing is, we're very deliberately not doing 'this kind of thing.'

Gotcha. I will say I don't think the Hexbow quite meets the level of cheese that a PAM Paladin does, but I take your meaning. Maybe run it past the group and see how they feel about it?

Setting the Hexbow aside, I would still counsel a Charisma based character. You could consider a Celestial Pact Warlock, which will be a solid mixture of support and damage pretty much whatever you do. LudicSavant has an awesome build for one in his "eclectic builds" guide, no Multiclassing required, but it does probably exceed the level of power you're looking for. It's also easy to see how a Celestial Pact can be made relevant to this campaign - the Celestial doesn't want to go to Hell to accomplish a thing, it's sending you instead. Whatever that thing is - give a message to Zariel, recover something or someone, take out a particular devil, etc.

Outside of that, I think a Valor Bard would suit your group well. You still get Charisma and good swath of skills, you can play Valor as a pretty functional archer (though I think the Swift Quiver option is a trap), and you can focus on buffing in a way that will almost certainly come in handy. Even if your group isn't super tactical, temporary hit points and attack bonuses are still nice. Faerie Fire is likely to come up.

If you're fully set on Ranger, I've been toying around with an idea for a Feral Tiefling variant Horizon Walker Ranger. You get the +2 dex, you use a rapier and shield or a bow (but I'd go rapier and shield), you do Force damage once per round, you can track planar portals, you get Protection From Evil & Good, just lots of handy stuff for dealing with devils. And eventually you get to teleport 10 feet between your attacks, which is why you went Tiefling because now you're Nightcrawler.

[Willie the Duck]

Gotcha. I will say I don't think the Hexbow quite meets the level of cheese that a PAM Paladin does, but I take your meaning. Maybe run it past the group and see how they feel about it?

Pretty much 5e has given us a distaste for the non-bard (and probably single-classed non-hex warlocks) cha-based classes and half-elves with them (a half-elf fighter or the like not so much). There's just so much cheeze there. Yes, if you do not have a 15 minute workday, a paladin is not a problem in isolation. And neither Sorcerer or Hexblade is really a problem if you don't glue the things together into some bizarre amalgam. That doesn't change that it all has a bad taste in the mouth for all of us.

Setting the Hexbow aside, I would still counsel a Charisma based character. You could consider a Celestial Pact Warlock,
...
Outside of that, I think a Valor Bard would suit your group well. You still get Charisma and good swath of skills, you can play Valor as a pretty functional archer

One of these is definitely the reasonable choice. Valor bard is... well, it's the right choice for my situation isn't it? I keep talking about bard would be great but Moderately armored would be at 4th and such and... well that means valor bard. But I just find it kinda disappointing. I mean all it has (until 14th level, when it turns up the juice again) is the weapons (at 3rd. Hexblade as a caster's martial subtype at least gives you 1st level survivability), armor, and extra attack. I'm not sure what you could add and it be balanced, but compared to a Lore bard (with moderately armored and a SCAG cantrip at tier 2) it is just a little disappointing. But you are right.

If you're fully set on Ranger, I've been toying around with an idea for a Feral Tiefling variant Horizon Walker Ranger. You get the +2 dex, you use a rapier and shield or a bow (but I'd go rapier and shield), you do Force damage once per round, you can track planar portals, you get Protection From Evil & Good, just lots of handy stuff for dealing with devils. And eventually you get to teleport 10 feet between your attacks, which is why you went Tiefling because now you're Nightcrawler.

Horizon walker frankly is more appropriate. I wanted Gloomstalker for the Wis save and darkvision (and could pick up useful spells with the wizard dip) but it makes more sense to just trust (/cajole) the wizard into picking up the useful utility spells and play a HW with maybe fighter or rogue dips.

[HolyDraconus]

Or..... go artificer, craft yourself some goggles of night for the darkvision, as well as have enough tool proficiencies to fix most crap that you run into down there, and still have the option of going range with artillerist or melee and S.A.D. with Battlesmith. Give yourself and the party a many pouch and literally pool hp potions if you don't feel like casting cure wounds. You could also use an infusion on a flying stealth pet that competes with the warlock's that has the capabilities of making your cure wounds and OTHER touch spells have a range of 120ft.


The adventure was made for the class.

[No1ofIntrst]

Or..... go artificer (SNIP) The adventure was made for the class.

Two problems: Its either UA or Eberon, both of which can be problematic, as well as the fact that it fills mostly the same roles as a wizard (int, utility). Not that it's bad, it just doesn't fit with the party.

Warlock could be good, but I'd recommend going a Blastlock, as those are (generally) better than a Bowlock. The one problem with warlocks is that they really don't have enough spell slots to have fun with casting, and the adventure doesn't have too many short rest spots (most of the time its either lots of battles fast, or one really hard battle).

Valor Bard is neat, but it lacks a little, mostly just that it feels lackluster (particularly when you can take 2 levels of warlock (EB) to do what it does better). It can help, it's just that a melee character is not necessarily needed in that party.

A rogue could also be nest (Dex & Cha) You can work as a face (I like swashbuckler for this, but any can work) with expertise and you are otherwise pretty SAD. Grab a crossbow and the crossbow master feat and your damage is pretty nice, while not being game-breakingly OP. You also can help with sneaking, (ask the cleric to grab Pass Without Trace so people can come with) though I will warn you, there are a surprisingly low number of locks in hell.

[Aaron Underhand]

There is a lot to be said for hexblade2/lore bard, or hexblade3/swords bard if you want more melee ability.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, and update:

We finally started the campaign. Apparently others were not so good about writing down their stats, so we went with a 'everyone rerolls' solution that I'm a little miffed that we had to do, but not upset with the results. I got a 15, 13, 12, 12, 12, 12. The DM chose not to go forward with and of the UA material, and I decided that I needed a relatively robust, but skilled character (and with both wizard and cleric, I felt I didn't need to be a caster). So I went with a half-elven dex-based fighter (12 16 14 12 12 14), criminal background, who at level 2 (we levelled up after a crazy-hard bar-fight with some pirates that apparently we were smart to seek help with) took a level of rogue. We're levelling up between sessions and I am uncertain on which skills (out of athletics, deception, insight, investigation, perception, persuasion, and stealth) to take expertise in. Also in what direction to take the character -- I could go with mostly rogue, or mostly fighter (and by mostly, I could be aiming for just 1 level in the other, or go to 3-4), or shoot for something like 8/12 (not that we are likely to hit 20).

Does anyone have any thoughts? Which do people find better - rogue with a bit of fighter, or fighter with a bit of rogue? Subclasses? Battlemaster makes a lot of sense for fighter-rogue, although samurai and elven accuracy makes sense for half-elves who spend time looking for advantage (which rogues do). For Rogue archetype, inquisitive or mastermind actually make sense for the scenario (being rather social/skill-based, at least in the beginning). Pertaining to feats, about the only thing I'm set on is that resilient:wis, although I can see Shield Master, Elven Accuracy, Medium Armor Master, and Healer/Inspiring Leader all being useful for the group.

Any thoughts or perspectives would be appreciated.

[LordNibbler]

You could go crit fishing with Champion, Swashbuckler, Elven Accuracy, Extra Attack and a bunch of sneak attack dice (headed to Fighter 6/Rogue 14 to maximize ASIs though it will be a while before you get to Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. At lease you’ll have Cunning Action early).

[Willie the Duck]

I certainly could, and Champion + Elven Accuracy is intuitively tempting. However, if I were going for crit-fishing, I'd probably go Samurai, just because of the Wis save at 7th (in which case I'd shoot for F8/R12). It's really tempting to do Battlemaster with fighter-rogues, though (given that they can get reaction-attacks more frequently than most).

As to swashbuckler, the dominant reason I'm not wanting to do that is that our last rogue was that. However, it's also that this guy is going to be doing a lot of supporting the barbarian, meaning that the criteria for Rakish Audacity isn't going to be all that frequent. Although Cha to initiative does sound nice, I think if I wanted a 'guaranteed SA' archetype, I'd go for an Inquisitive and Insightful Fighting (although that would seal in a expertise selection).

Both good suggestions, and I will think on it. I am still leaning towards Battlemaster/Samurai for fighter (if I go 3+ levels in fighter), and Thief, Inquisitive, and Mastermind for rogue (also if 3+) (the last two if for no other reason then when else would they be the right choice?).

Thanks!

[LordNibbler]

I am still leaning towards Battlemaster/Samurai for fighter (if I go 3+ levels in fighter), and Thief, Inquisitive, and Mastermind for rogue (also if 3+)

I guess the big questions are how high up the character is going to go and if you want to be more of a fighter or more of a rogue. Personally, I like the latter better. You’ll have enough ASIs to get resilient:wisdom early on. The combination is good all the way through but really shines after level 10 when you get extra attack and Uncanny Dodge. If you’ve got a barbarian, your role is to kill off the stuff that he has pinned down in melee, not be the tank yourself. If you want to go the Sentinel route, then you should be more fighter-heavy.

[Willie the Duck]

I guess the big questions are how high up the character is going to go and if you want to be more of a fighter or more of a rogue. Personally, I like the latter better. You’ll have enough ASIs to get resilient:wisdom early on. The combination is good all the way through but really shines after level 10 when you get extra attack and Uncanny Dodge. If you’ve got a barbarian, your role is to kill off the stuff that he has pinned down in melee, not be the tank yourself. If you want to go the Sentinel route, then you should be more fighter-heavy.

If I put much time into rogue, samurai instead of resilient:wis would indeed make wis saves too late for what I expect from the adventure. Certainly an argument in favor of battlemaster. One issue I foresee is that the rest of my party is mostly long-rest dependent. I feel comfortable, given my spoiler policy on the Avernus adventure: -- how much does the adventure favor long vs short rests? Anyone know? Thanks!