The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Sickening Radiance is great if you have some way to keep your targets in the the (big, 30' radius) sphere of microwave oven-ness. The hit points won't come all at once, but the spell can be maintained for up to 10 minutes and can potentially kill almost anything through exhaustion if you can get it to fail 6 saves in the time you sustain it.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    What is this even supposed to mean?



    Why don't you actually show us this build/situation?
    Sorry. The build is in an active competition at the moment.

    Don't get me wrong. I tested the Nuclear Wizard. Great build. Seriously . . . GREAT build. Just got further with an alt approach.
    Last edited by col_impact; 2019-12-08 at 02:33 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by col_impact View Post
    Sorry. The build is in an active competition at the moment.

    Don't get me wrong. I tested the Nuclear Wizard. Great build. Seriously . . . GREAT build. Just got further with an alt approach.
    Competition on this forum? Can't you just post a link to where you have it submitted? Or PM one of us. I promise we have no interest in affecting your competition by posting it publicly.

    Also Nuclear Wizards are one of the weaker builds, but without more information you seem to just be 'fiat' I win without telling you how, and I'm going to assume that Nuclear Wizards still stomp you.

    At least give the criteria of the competition so I can have an idea of what level/how many items you are assuming.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Competition on this forum? Can't you just post a link to where you have it submitted? Or PM one of us. I promise we have no interest in affecting your competition by posting it publicly.

    Also Nuclear Wizards are one of the weaker builds, but without more information you seem to just be 'fiat' I win without telling you how, and I'm going to assume that Nuclear Wizards still stomp you.

    At least give the criteria of the competition so I can have an idea of what level/how many items you are assuming.
    Yup, provided that at least some magic items are allowed, Conjure Animals starts to outpace Magic Missile.

    If no magic items at all are allowed probably Magic Missile wins out. Not sure. But that is definitely arguable.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by col_impact View Post
    Yup, provided that at least some magic items are allowed, Conjure Animals starts to outpace Magic Missile.

    If no magic items at all are allowed probably Magic Missile wins out. Not sure. But that is definitely arguable.
    Give the criteria then. Some magic items? Does that mean I can use whatever rarity items I want?

    Also are you under some impression that a Magic Missle build uses nothing else and that if you stop that one spell you win? Cause that's not how this works. Wizards have lots of spells. Besides you haven't even given what CLASS your build uses. Three classes that I know of can get Conjure Animals. And builds would be wildly different for each of them.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Nov 2019

    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    When you are hexblade sorlock, then hexblade curse, hex, then magic missiles - 1 lvl slot - 3d4+3 +3d6 + 3CHA dmg...

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Feb 2018

    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Most efficient damaging spell?

    Level 1: Dissonant Whisper
    Level 2: Flaming Sphere
    Level 3: Conjure Animals
    Level 4: Conjure Woodland Beings
    Level 5: Animate Objects

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delph View Post
    When you are hexblade sorlock, then hexblade curse, hex, then magic missiles - 1 lvl slot - 3d4+3 +3d6 + 3CHA dmg...
    Hex doesn't affect Magic Missile. Only Hexblade's Curse does.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Hex doesn't affect Magic Missile. Only Hexblade's Curse does.
    Also with the ruling that Magic Missle is a single damage roll that means it's only one instance of damage and one proc of Hexblades curse. So 3d4+3+CHA.

    Of course if you roll them separately then it's 3d4+3+3(CHA) which is a decent chunk of damage.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Also with the ruling that Magic Missle is a single damage roll that means it's only one instance of damage and one proc of Hexblades curse. So 3d4+3+CHA.
    RAW and RAI (confirmed by wotc devs) it’s 1d4+1+Cha, as a single roll, multiplied by the number of missiles. So essentially (1d4+1+Cha)*(2+slot level)
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2019-12-08 at 04:51 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Also with the ruling that Magic Missle is a single damage roll that means it's only one instance of damage and one proc of Hexblades curse. So 3d4+3+CHA.

    Of course if you roll them separately then it's 3d4+3+3(CHA) which is a decent chunk of damage.
    You shoud count it as 3x 1d4+1+CHA, because they are 3 signe darts...


    Hex have describson "when you make attack" not "Roll attack" I'm not native english speaker, but i feel difference and magic missile is an attack for me, but without attack dice.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Magic Missile, RAW, is indeed one 1d4+1 roll that gets multiplied, due to how the “hit simultaneously” clause works. It’s similar to how you roll Fireball damage once and apply it for each target.

    A very common house rule (and one that I use in my games) is adding the words “Each bolt’s damage is rolled separately.” to the Magic Missile description, which has the effect of preventing the worst of the damage duplication and making the spell act more like it did in previous editions. Notably, Hexblade’s Curse still triggers once per bolt even if you use this ruling.

    With magic items that grant cover, illusions, invisibility, terrain, buffs to allies, and other such things, you’ll definitely find that summon spells (and concentration spells in general) become stronger. If you pop a potion of invisibility and a potion of flight while wearing an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location for instance, you can pretty much Conjure Animals to your heart’s content. Hell, you can just grab a Brooch of Shielding and tell the Nuclear Wizard to go read a book.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    RAW and RAI (confirmed by wotc devs) it’s 1d4+1+Cha, as a single roll, multiplied by the number of missiles. So essentially (1d4+1+Cha)*(2+slot level)
    Which I keep forgetting how they count it because it's an asinine way to deal with the spell. xD

    Granted it takes some specific building, but look at a Evocation wizard 17/Hexblade 3. (The 17 isn't needed... Just can't remember what level empowered Evocation is and didn't want to look it up lol)

    It can deal insane damage with a level 1 spell.

    3(2.5+1+5+6) or an average of 40.5 with a level 1 spell. It's dumb and no matter how many times WoTC confirms it I'll still keep forgetting that my house rule isn't "correct" because it's the only way that makes sense to me lol

    Also correcting all of us, Hex Blades curse adds proficiency bonus, not charisma, to the damage roll.

    Why should one spell, that's already decent due to damage type and automatic hit, get more of a benefit from these abilities then other spells?


    Edit: To give my exact house rule for MM in case their is curiosity. I roll damage once for each target. Each target is then dealt damage equal to it's roll (number of missles) + modifiers. That way this one spell doesn't break the nigh universal rule that you don't multiply modifiers (example crits that double the damage dice rolled, not the total damage) This also prevents the argument I once heard that because it's a single roll their Hex Blade curse damage should also affect a second, non-cursed, creature. It was a stretch to begin with, but I like being clear that Magic Missle isn't a rules loophole in my games.
    Last edited by Galithar; 2019-12-08 at 05:35 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    I wouldn’t say it’s necessary to patch Magic Missile that far. Eldritch Blast and Scorching Ray come to mind as spells that definitely proc Hexblade’s Curse multiple times. Hell, Hex applies too.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    I wouldn’t say it’s necessary to patch Magic Missile that far. Eldritch Blast and Scorching Ray come to mind as spells that definitely proc Hexblade’s Curse multiple times. Hell, Hex applies too.
    But they don't trigger things like Empowered Evocation multiple times, because that's only for one roll per turn.

    Also it's not necessary for sure. The game doesn't break with specific builds being able to abuse MM. I just forget that my house rule is in direct opposition to WoTC sometimes :P

    I personally think that Scorching Ray should be more powerful then MM. And that EB should be too (on a high level Warlock only... I limit EB to Warlock levels as a houserule as well though)

    Getting off topic of efficient damaging spells though. Don't want to hijack this into "Galithar discusses all the ways he disagrees with WoTC and makes houserules, and then forgets they aren't official!" Lol
    Last edited by Galithar; 2019-12-08 at 05:55 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Nothing comes even near Forbiddance.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Banned
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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Scourge Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerer.
    Empowered Quickened Spirit Guardians + Action to ativate Aasimar's Radiant Consumption.
    Remembet that you can upcast Spirit Guardians.

    It hits first time and when the enemy starts his turn. Two hits before the enemy's turn.

    You are level 5.
    6d8 = 27 average + 25% average (Empowered) = 33 average + 8 Radiant Consumption.
    It's 42 Radiant damage per turn.
    On that level. It's insta-kill and It isn't multiclass dependent.



    Conjure Animals? The DM chooses the animal, not you. It can be a rat or a fish.
    I prefer Animate Dead with Skeleton, Archers for 24HOURS and non concentration spell.
    Last edited by Rabi; 2019-12-08 at 06:42 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstBornSon View Post
    Nothing comes even near Forbiddance.
    How much damage can you do with one spell?
    5d10 every 6 seconds for 24 hours... AKA an average of 2,376,000 damage per day per target.

    What if you got to cast THIRTY spells!?
    Over 30 days I make my damage aura last FOREVER... Or you know until dispelled at least :P

    But what if you don't have any spell slots left?
    Don't care it's a ritual!

    Doesn't it cost 1,000 GP to cast though!?
    But it only consumes it on casting number 30 when it becomes permanent!.


    I think as far as efficiency goes unlimited damage for 0 spell slots wins lol.

    I change my answer to agreeing with FirstBornSon lol

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Rabi, Spirit Guardians doesn't do any damage when you cast it. It damages when a creature starts its turn there, or when a creature enters the area for the first time on a turn. Usually, this means once per turn, one way or the other. You can make it more, but only if you have some sort of way of making enemies move on other turns (or if the enemy foolishly starts their turn in the area, and then leaves and returns).

    And the most efficient spell in damage per spell slot used is any cantrip.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Erupting Earth compared to Fireball becomes more efficient at lvl 6 and higher slot if my math is correct.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Addaran View Post
    Erupting Earth compared to Fireball becomes more efficient at lvl 6 and higher slot if my math is correct.
    I haven't redone the math, but I thought it was just equal at 6 and better at 7th and on?

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    I'd have to say the humble catapult spell is a contender for best damage spell for unknown conditions. It can be fired on invisible targets, around cover, can repeat chance of hitting other targets if misses, does magical bludgeoning damage plus potential effects of the object used, it somatic only, and scales relatively well.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  23. - Top - End - #53
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delph View Post
    Hex have describson "when you make attack" not "Roll attack" I'm not native english speaker, but i feel difference and magic missile is an attack for me, but without attack dice.
    If there's no attack roll, you aren't making an attack (with the specific exception of grapple and shove).
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Nov 2016

    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    At first I was upset with myself for not more narrowly defining the question. After reading through several well written posts about various types of damage efficiency I'm happy I did not as they all need taken into account.

    What level spell, how long a period the damage is over, if its concentration or not, if you need to see your target even, all matter. How much? Depends on the situation!

    To complicate matters the most damage my character has caused is from a four round Animate Objects / Dissonant Whispers / Dissonat Whispers / Dissonant Whispers combo on some relatively low A/C giants. Concentration, two different spells/slots, and multiple rounds are all involved but by the time opportunity attacks from the AO's and my party members are calculated in the spells lead to maybe 340 Hit Points of damage.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    zinycor's Avatar

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    To complicate matters the most damage my character has caused is from a four round Animate Objects / Dissonant Whispers / Dissonat Whispers / Dissonant Whispers combo on some relatively low A/C giants. Concentration, two different spells/slots, and multiple rounds are all involved but by the time opportunity attacks from the AO's and my party members are calculated in the spells lead to maybe 340 Hit Points of damage.
    Doesn't seem very efficient.
    Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty

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  26. - Top - End - #56
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabi View Post
    Conjure Animals? The DM chooses the animal, not you. It can be a rat or a fish.
    Fortunately, I am able to check with the DM about how he or she will resolve Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, etc. before I lock in what character to build.

    Obviously, if a DM is irrationally opposed to people upcasting Spirit Guardians then that will keep me from building a Divine Soul Sorceror.

    Provided that the DM is rational, Conjure Animals is extremely efficient and the cornerstone of a dominant PvP build. A follow up consideration then becomes the number of magic items, the amount of prep time, etc. The rules of the comp factor greatly into which actual build becomes dominant and along with that which spell, whether Magic Missile, Conjure Animals, or Spirit Guardians is most efficient.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by col_impact View Post

    Provided that the DM is rational, Conjure Animals is extremely efficient and the cornerstone of a dominant PvP build.

    Prove it or stop saying it.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Prove it or stop saying it.
    Sure. Do you understand what visual supremacy refers to in tactical discussions?

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    It does not matter if some random build using conjure animals kills a random build that uses magic missile. This is about efficiency not about what can kill the other. Further if the two are comparable even if conjure animal was slightly better if they are comparable the fact that magic missile is a 1st level spell would imply it is a more efficient spell assuming you are using spell slots as a measure of efficiency.

    Also while I would be the first to say that being useful if you cannot see the target is great that in and of itself does not make conjure animals more efficient than other spells it just means it has an advantage in that specific situation (also this seems to ignore the fact that if the target is unseen it is highly likely the animals will have disadvantage on attack rolls which will really limit the damage they can do especially if the target has good AC to boot).
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  30. - Top - End - #60
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Most efficient damaging spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstBornSon View Post
    Nothing comes even near Forbiddance.
    That's a tough one to agree on. It's pretty situational in only being able to hit certian types of enemies, needing a good bit of time to cast, and not being movable, but when it is relevant it is obviously extremely efficient.
    Reality is relative, and there is an exception to every rule.

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