Teaching splat to new players (3.P)

[Boci]

I have a group of almost fairly unexpirienced players in a low level D&D game. The system is 3.5. Things seem to be going well, the players enjoy it, but I get the feeling some of them are starting to feel the limitation of core 3.5. At the same time, its not an easy system and they are still sturgling with all the rules, so I don't want to overwhelm them. As a compromise I was thinking of choosing a few splat options and give them the chance to learn these in game, via NPC mentors, desciphering scripts on abandoned temples or any number of ways. The barbarian for example will soon be visiting his homeland, so that's a good opportunity to give him some pointers. I would however like to avoid retraining class features they already have, its a little game-y, not a terrible thing but nice if it can be avoided, but more importantly confusing for new players to also now need to remember not just what their new ability does, but also what they previous had but now don't. Retraining feats are fine though and if the alternate class feature is for level 4+ then that's fine too.

They are current level 3, largely built with core only in the 3.5 system, but I am okay using pathfinder stuff too. Between raiding a dwarven treasury and some chance encounters they have a hair amoutn of custom magical items too. The 6 players are:

1. Half-elf / Ranger 3. Uses a composite longbow primarily, also carries a short sword, favoured enemy humans. Last one has come up maybe once, and another time when a human looking target turned out to not be human, which was cool but did make the ability into detect human. They also have a pet giant weasel (using tweaked PF stats) that will likely become their animal companion next level, likely with a boost beyond what the normal animal companion is in light of them been together since first level. Their magical items are the black staff, a wierd technology magic hybrid that when fuelled with distilled essence of magic give them 30 temporary hitpoints that can either be used as temp HP, or sacrificed 5 points as a swift action to be invisible for 1 round. Also has a sword bracelet, but cannot use that since its powered by spells that are not from your spell list (yes, that intentionally annoying to use, its a fey item).

Splat options to offer them: something to boost their ranged options, or better nature utility

2. Human / Cleric 3. Cleric of the sun with healing and war for domains. Seems happy with how their character performs, especially now they know they can spontenously cast cure spells and don't need to prepare them. In combat they've been casting bless a lot, and they seem to like using situational spells when the opportunity presents itself. They've been healing too, but what choice do they have? Wears medium armour, fights with a sword or mace and shield. Has a rapier made of mind metal that causes 1 extra damage to any creature struck that isn't immune to mind affecting abilities and will be cheaper to enchant with enchantment effects. Also has the schima, a slotless magical item which gives him access to all 4 elemental domains in addition to what he already has.

Splat options to offer them: some of the cooler splat spells for clerics that help with buffing the self or the party

3. Human / Barbarian 3. Fairly standard human tribesman barbarian. Wields a buckler and greatsword, has power attack and also track for feats. Seems to like how the character handles though once they were a bit dissapointed they couldn't rage for an improtant encounter because they had already raged in a random encounter earlier that day. Has a ring that allows them to animate their own shadow into a shadow, if it dies they take 2 points of charisma damage and their shadow is gone until this is healed. Hasn't used this item, there haven't been too many good opportunities for it, but I also think they don't realize how useful it could be. Also has an amulet that gives them a swim speed and allows them to hold their breath for ten times longer than normal.

Splat options to offer them: Maybe some of the rage feats from complete warrior, like extra rage?

4. Human / fighter 3. Their backstory had them coming from a tribe of mounted warriors, started with a horse and the mounted combat feat, but hasn't pursued that afgter seeing that you cannot always rely on having your horse present for an encounter. They wield a scimitar and shield. They have a deadwood shield, +1 shield that shatters whenever they are subject to a crit, which automatically makes the crit not confirm. At midnight the shield regrows, provided he has at least one piece of it in his possession. Also has the helmet of the blind hunter, which covers their eyes but summons 2 giant bats whose eyes they can then see through (though they have to make a wisdom check to avoid puking their guts out from the wacky perspective, if they fail it takes an hour to get use to it, higher rolls allow them to adjust quicker, with a 20+ mean they do so in a round.

Splat options to offer them: Something that helps with sword and board, though none of the options from Complete Warrior seemed to fit Ill need to check some other books.

5. Gnome / Rogue 2 / Spellthief 1. This is the sole exception to the all core, they started as a rogue but were worried they lacked arcane magic and so started dipping as a spellthief, though they aren't sure if they want to stick with this. Has weapon finesse now, but hasn't been able to sneak attack too much, maybe only once, between missing, not flanking, or fighting elementals/constructs. Has the artificer monacle, allowing them to cast detect magic at will and identify 3/day, and a ring that lets them get a traint from another race for 1 day (no stat modifiers).

Splat options to offer them: penatrating strike or some similar ability

6. Human / Druid 3. Has an eagle animal companion, does druid-y stuff. By far the most inexpirienced player and often finds the core spell list a bit overwhelming, but I'd still like to offer them a few things down the line. Uses shillelagh in combat, though also has the locust spear, a +1 spear that causes a locust to emerge from the wound and continue to attack the creature for 5 rounds. The locusts attacks are pretty pathetic, tiny, +2, 1d4-1, but they can also be given over commands by the spears wielder.

Splat options to offer them: one or two choice druid splat spells

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What do you think, what would be good options to highlight for them? Mostly looking for class features, feats and spells, stuff they know themselves rather than magical items.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, since this is 3.P, I'd recommend retraining ranger to hunter, fighter to one of those archetypes that gets more skill points, and rogue by the unchained rogue.

That's because those three characters are annoyingly limited for no good reason. Ranger's favored enemy doesn't come up nearly often enough in most campaigns; fighter should have more going for him than just feats and more feats; and being unable to sneak attack large categories of common monsters (as in 3E, but not PF) is just needlessly frustrating.

[Boci]

Well, since this is 3.P, I'd recommend retraining ranger to hunter, fighter to one of those archetypes that gets more skill points, and rogue by the unchained rogue.

Hunters a cool class, but I am not convinced they are newbie friendly. I'm also a bit skeptical about using pathfinder base classes in a 3.5 game. 3.P means feats and spells and maybe archetypes are usuable. I'm pretty sure 3.5 has an alternative class for the fighter though that gets 4 skill points per level, so that could be offered.

I'm also not sure how you imagine the unchained rogue will help the rogue sneak attack. PF doesn't give rogues the explicit ability to sneak attack undead and constructs because it wasn't needed in the game, so you'll need 3.5 abilities like penetration strike for that.

[Kurald Galain]

PF doesn't give rogues the explicit ability to sneak attack undead and constructs because it wasn't needed in the game

Yes it does; compare the wording of the rogue class ability in 3E vs PF.

Point is, fix this before your player gets frustrated. I've seen multiple players get frustrated by how often their 3E rogue cannot contribute in combat.

[Boci]

Yes it does; compare the wording of the rogue class ability in 3E vs PF.

No, its the difference in the construct and undead creature type that caused the change between the two games, which won't change even if I do allow a PF baseclass in a 3.5 game.

Point is, fix this before your player gets frustrated. I've seen multiple players get frustrated by how often their 3E rogue cannot contribute in combat.

So far it hasn't been an issue, since the rogue tends to end up being the one using alchemical supplies like alchemist fire and tanglefoot bags, which are pretty effective.

[Kurald Galain]

No, its the difference in the construct and undead creature type that caused the change between the two games, which won't change even if I do allow a PF baseclass in a 3.5 game.

The 3E rogue class explicitly states, "A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack."

And the 3E undead type says nothing about sneak attack.

[Boci]

And the 3E undead type says nothing about sneak attack.

Undead are still immune to criticals hits in 3E, so no, I wouldn't rule that unchained rogues can SA undead in 3E.

[magicalmagicman]

Just point them to a handbook online. That's how I learned the game. Look up a handbook since it has an expert's opinion on it, look it up in the book it's from, and that's that. Much easier than reading an entire splatbook.

[Boci]

Just point them to a handbook online. That's how I learned the game. Look up a handbook since it has an expert's opinion on it, look it up in the book it's from, and that's that. Much easier than reading an entire splatbook.

Handbooks are still a lot to take in for people who regularly have problems with the rules in a core only game.

[Kurald Galain]

Undead are still immune to criticals hits in 3E, so no, I wouldn't rule that unchained rogues can SA undead in 3E.

LOL, you have missed that this is yet another restriction in the 3E rogue class that doesn't apply to the PF rogue

[Boci]

LOL, you have missed that this is yet another restriction in the 3E rogue class that doesn't apply to the PF rogue

Critical hits are not a rogue class feature. You cannot crit an undead in 3E whether or not you have sneak attack as a class feature. So no, I didn't miss anything, you did. LOL

In short: We are playing 3.5. Undead are immune to crits and sneak attack. Whilst I could rule that rogues can use the unchained PF SA and affect undead, it would be mechanically inelegent to do that in 3.5 where undead are not subject to critical hits.

[magicalmagicman]

Handbooks are still a lot to take in for people who regularly have problems with the rules in a core only game.

Cut and paste parts of it then. I mean, you just need feat lists or ACF lists right? Spell lists gets complicated but that's spellcasters. You're too low level for weapon enchantment options.

If I was receiving help, I rather receive a list of optimal choices than a huge list of traps that I need to wade through and judge for myself.

[Boci]

Cut and paste parts of it then. I mean, you just need feat lists or ACF lists right?.

That could work. The ACF section is short enough, but the feat one is longer. Still, once I prune out the stuff that won't apply (they're not a duel wielder and probably won't be multiclassing), that leaves:

1. Able learner:RoD Cross class skills at normal cost. Good for any skilled ranger, and even better if you plan a multiclass build.

2. Blind-Fight:PHBIf you have lots of attacks, you can miss a lot. Re-roll every concealment miss chance is great. And also allow you to retain your dex against invisible attacks.

3. Combat expertise:PHB A bad choice, but requisite for some other feats.

4. Combat reflexes:PHB A good feat for any melee ranger with good Dex modifier. Also, prerequisite for some others good feats.

5. Companion Spellbond:PHB2 Great if you have a strong companion and if you have lots of spells (you can share ANY spell you cast, not only ranger class spells.) If not,Adaptable Flanker can do the same work, but without investing your valuables feats.

6. Darkstalker:LoM Awesome feat. It allows you to hide from enemies with special senses (like tremorsense). It that wasn't enough, also allows you to flank enemies with all around vision... and without prerequisites.

7. Dodge:PHB A bad feat, but prerequisite for spring attack and some other feats. If you don't need it as prerequisite to anything else, forget it.

8. Draconic aura:DM Average feat for you, a really good one for your companion (because if free), especially if you choose a dragonblooded creature, like Phynxkin.Recomended auras: resistance, senses, swiftness and toughness.

9. Exalted companion:BoED Much like the planar ranger levels, the exalted companion is a intelligent creature (can learn languages) so you can give him specific orders. Is preferable to take the substitutions levels unless you want a specific creature (note: that will hurt too much your poor druid levels), but pegasus, unicorn and blink dog are good choices.

10. Extra favoured enemy:MotW A 3.0 feat, but still one of the best for rangers. (Note: the 3.5 version appears in the ghostwalk 3.5 update)

11. Feral animal companion:CR You gain a stronger companion. You must be evil.

12. Foe hunter:CRYou gain a favoured enemy form a narrow list. Campaign dependant, but extra favoured enemy looks better

13. Greater manyshoot:XPH Allows you to use manyshoot agaist diferent targets, and the best of, to add precision based damage to each arrow, and all of them can be a critical score. Simply great for ranged characters.

14. Hidden talent:XPH The improved version of the wild talent feat. You must check with your DM about his availability. Also, you need a Char of 11 or higher.
You will net 2 pp and 1 psionic power, and the ability to use psionic feats.
Your caster level is low, and so the DC, so it's suggested to take powers that buff yourself, like Expansion, force screen, or prescience offensive.

15. Improved favoured enemy:CW Good for ranger with lots of favoured enemies.

16. Improved initiative:PHB Good for ranged or spellcaster characters, not so good for melee ones (except you had pounce ability) If you moves, you can make only one attack. Its better to let the enemy approaches to you, and full attack him. In the other hand, you always can delay your initiative, or move to a strategic position.
If you have feats to spend, this is a good choice.

17. Improved rapid shoot:CW Good to archers, great for throwers (due the manyshoot problem). I Think that greater manyshoot is better than this feat, but that depends on the build.

18. Mobility:PHB Its simply better to avoid AoO, or try a tumble check, but no so bad if you uses to pass trough enemy threatened areas.

19. Natural bondCAd Improves your companion. A nice feat

20. Nemesis:BoED Sense selected enemies and +1d6 damage against them. The broader the selected enemy class, the better.

21. Ninph's Kiss:BoED The best part of this feat is the extra skill points per level. Take it at the lower lever you can (preferable, 1st level)

22. Practiced Spellcaster / Manifester:CD This feat has little effect over the new ranger spells (most of them have fixed effect, or based in your ranger levels)
But is good to improve your caster level for some others (like the old barbskin)
Also, this feat has nice effects if you plan to dip in some other spellcasting / manifester class.

23. Point Blank Shot:PHB Good for ranged warriors (specialy throwers, since they uses to be at 30' or less. Also, that feat is a prerequisite for some other feats.

24. Ranged disarm:CW Interesting option for ranged chars. Can be combined with rapid shoot or manyshoot. The bow is a 2 handed weapons, so (I'm not sure about it) archers could get a nice bonus for this feat. Use your companion to pick up the weapon if you win (and don't worry about AoO over him... your enemy is disarmed).

25. Shadow blade:Bo9S Rangers uses to have a high Dex score, so this is a great addition to melee builds.

26. Shoot on the run:PHB The old hit and run trick. Lots of pre-requisites, but is a good feat if you have skirmish damage. Also, can be used to place yourself better in the battlefield (mostly to avoid cover penalties or full cover) and still reach a safe place to avoid counter attacks. If you haven't skirmish, or you can face the cover penalties, avoid this feat.

27. Swift and silent:PgtF No penalty to hide and move silently for moving at your normal speed. Very good feat

28. Sword of the arcane order:CV Prepare wizard spells? And your FULL ranger level staking with wizard level to determine your wizard caster level? Wow.

29. Woodland archer:RW The moving sniper tactic is very nice to ambushers.

From: http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=716.0

That's still just shy of 30 options, which does seem like a lot for a new player to add alongside the core rules, but its certainly more doable...

[chaos_redefined]

Critical hits are not a rogue class feature. You cannot crit an undead in 3E whether or not you have sneak attack as a class feature. So no, I didn't miss anything, you did. LOL

In short: We are playing 3.5. Undead are immune to crits and sneak attack. Whilst I could rule that rogues can use the unchained PF SA and affect undead, it would be mechanically inelegent to do that in 3.5 where undead are not subject to critical hits.

Actually, no. Undead are immune to critical hits. This inadvertently carries immunity to sneak attacks, because every source of sneak attack in 3.5 specifically states that it only works on enemies who are not immune to sneak attack. Unchained rogue does not specify this. As a result, undead are not immune to sneak attacks from unchained rogues. This is a good thing, as it means rogues need to be balanced on the idea that they are relevant every encounter.

As for elegance, I don't think it's reasonable to call 3.5 elegant. At best, it is a beautiful, chaotic mess, with insane chains of rules that lead to the craziest of things. At worst, it is a crazy nightmare that the developers clearly did not think through properly.

[Boci]

As for elegance, I don't think it's reasonable to call 3.5 elegant. At best, it is a beautiful, chaotic mess, with insane chains of rules that lead to the craziest of things. At worst, it is a crazy nightmare that the developers clearly did not think through properly.

Eh, this is getting into semantics, and not too profitably. Point is, I see undead being SA and critable as something that is part of PF, and so wouldn't apply in 3.5 game even if the Unchained Rogue was allowed. Others are free to disagree, but that is how I would handle 3.P myself.