The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    Default Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    For the record, I am not looking for spells such as, say, Greater Invisibility.

    What I am looking for is a) good candidates to convert into rays, and/or b) ray spells that can be used to deliver sneak attack damage.

    An example of the first would be, say, Earth Reaver - which has bad damage, but turns into a hit-and-youíre-prone ray - or Cyclonic Blast - which has decent damage and also a no-save bull rush with a +12 bonus.

    An example of the second would be spells like Polar Ray or Energy Drain. Note that in this case, Iím particularly interested in highish-level spells, higher than the max cap for Spellwarp Sniper(that is, 5th-level spells). I think thereís a spell on the web called Flame Sands, which seems okay as well.

    And while I do know that there is a list of eligible spells out there somewhere, that is honestly too much and too vague for my purposes. Iím not going to read half the area blasting spells printed just to find some useful ones.

    Oh, one last thing - Wizard-based casting, not Sorcerer. Wings of Flurry really is a great spell for Sorcerer-based Spellwarp Snipers, but not planning on doing that now.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    I'm partial to force hammer myself.

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I'm partial to force hammer myself.
    Nonlethal force ray that deals Xd4 damage(max 10d4)? Nice! The only minor drawback is lethal and non-lethal damage get healed at the same time by healing spells, but itís still better than Blast of Force or whatever that SpC spell was.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    The best spell for Spellwarp Sniper is Sandblast. After being spellwarped, it's a no-save daze on a ranged touch out of a first level spell slot, which is absurd. The only problem is that it's a Druid spell. There are ways around that, but none of them are trivial. Other than that, it's largely about knocking people prone.

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    The best spell for Spellwarp Sniper is Sandblast. After being spellwarped, it's a no-save daze on a ranged touch out of a first level spell slot, which is absurd. The only problem is that it's a Druid spell. There are ways around that, but none of them are trivial. Other than that, it's largely about knocking people prone.
    Yeah, I know what you mean, but honestly I donít really feel up to jumping through hoops just to get a few decently useful spells. Earth Reaver is a lot higher level but itís still on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. And deals some damage.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Frost Breath?

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by radthemad4 View Post
    Frost Breath?
    Low damage dice, low scaling rate, and low cap... but hot diggity damn that rider effect. Daze isnít quite as powerful as stunning but itís also a lot harder to be immune to it. Pretty damn nice for the slot!
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    My list did have a quick-reference section for status effects that become no-save. ... But my list appears to have completely disappeared from the internet anyway. Well, here's a repost of that section.

    Spoiler: Status Conditions
    Show

    These spells normally inflict a status condition on a failed reflex save. Only 3.5, non-setting spells are listed.

    Blinded
    • Anger of the Noonday Sun: Druid 6; 1d6 damage per level (maximum 10d6, only certain creatures) plus blinded for 1 minute per level, 20 ft. range, SR, Spell Compendium 11
    • Sunburst: Druid 8, sorcerer/wizard 8, sun 8, warmage 8; 6d6 damage (more against certain creatures) plus blinded, long range, SR, Player's Handbook 289


    Buried
    • Bombardment: Druid 8; 1d8 damage per level (maximum 20d8) plus buried, long range, no SR, Spell Compendium 37
    • Call Avalanche: Druid 5; 8d6 crushing damage plus buried, long range, no SR, Frostburn 90


    Dazed
    • Frost Breath: Cleric 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2; 1d4 cold damage per level (maximum 5d4) plus dazed for 1 round, 30 ft. range, SR, Spell Compendium 100
    • Wings of Flurry: Sorcerer 4; 1d6 damage per level (uncapped) plus dazed for 1 round, 30 ft. range, SR, Races of the Dragon 119


    Immobilized
    • Rain of Spines: Wu jen 4; 6d6 damage plus prone plus immobilized for 1 round per level, medium range, no SR, Complete Mage 114


    On Fire
    • Molten Strike: Sorcerer/wizard 2; 2d6 fire damage plus on fire, long range, SR, Heroes of Battle 127


    Prone
    • Cometfall: Cleric 6, druid 6; 1d6 damage per level (maximum 15d6) plus prone, medium range, no SR, Spell Compendium 50
    • Earth Reaver: Cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 5; 4d6 damage plus 3d6 fire damage plus prone, medium range, SR, Spell Compendium 75
    • Elemental Burst: Wu jen 1; 1d8 damage or prone, long range, SR, Complete Arcane 104
    • Great Thunderclap: Sorcerer/wizard 3; prone plus stunned for 1 round (will negates) plus deafened for 1 minute (fortitude negates), medium range, no SR, Spell Compendium 107
    • Hurtling Stone: Druid 4; 6d6 damage plus prone, 60 ft. range, no SR, Heroes of Battle 127
    • Ironthunder Horn: Bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 2; prone, 30 ft. range, SR, Spell Compendium 126
    • Scramble True Position: Bard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; moved 2 squares in a random direction plus prone, close range, SR, Tome of Magic 258
    • Snow Wave: Druid 6; 4d6 crushing damage plus 1d6 cold damage (fortitude half) plus prone, 30 ft. range, no SR, Frostburn 104
    • Tail Sweep: Sorcerer 4, 1d6 damage per level (uncapped) plus prone, 10 ft. range, SR, Races of the Dragon 118
    • Thunderous Roar: Druid 3; 1d6 sonic damage per 2 levels (maximum 5d6, fortitude half) plus prone, long range, SR, Spell Compendium 220


    Slowed
    • Deadly Lahar: Druid 8, sorcerer/wizard 8, wu jen 8; 10d6 fire damage plus 5d6 fire damage in the following 3 rounds plus slowed for 3 rounds, 60 ft. range, no SR, Complete Mage 101


    Stunned
    • Sandblast: Druid 1; 1d6 nonlethal damage plus stunned for 1 round, 10 ft. range, SR, Complete Divine 178


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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    I personally would not allow the sandblast trick to work and here's why. The effect applies to creatures that fail the Reflex save. Spellwarp sniper removes the Reflex save. If there's no save, they can't fail it. Same with frost breath.

    Sunburst, on the other hand, would work because of its different wording.

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I personally would not allow the sandblast trick to work and here's why. The effect applies to creatures that fail the Reflex save. Spellwarp sniper removes the Reflex save. If there's no save, they can't fail it. Same with frost breath.

    Sunburst, on the other hand, would work because of its different wording.
    Spellwarp says ďEven if the original spell allowed a Reflex save to reduce or negate its effect, the ray does not.ď I suppose what you said has merit, and for Earth Reaver the prone effect is presumably caused by the ground erupting under the feet of the target(s) so it might not. What would RAI suggest? It could make sense that this clause was so Reflex saves donít halve the damage of a spellwarped Fireball and nothing else, but I dunno.

    Iím still interested in good rays or spells good for spellwarping; Cyclonic Blast for example is still non-typed damage so itís not too bad.

    What about (Greater) Fireburst? Damage dice are d10s; Fireburst is up to 5d10, and even better, Greater Fireburst is up to three times that, 15d10 fire damage! Unless the target has outright immunity or otherwise negates fire damage, the average damage is higher than a spellwarped Cacophonic Burst even with fire resistance 30. Protection from Fire does put a crimp into that, but itíll still burn(heh) through it pretty damn fast... and thatís not including the precision damage.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    What about (Greater) Fireburst? Damage dice are d10s; Fireburst is up to 5d10, and even better, Greater Fireburst is up to three times that, 15d10 fire damage! Unless the target has outright immunity or otherwise negates fire damage, the average damage is higher than a spellwarped Cacophonic Burst even with fire resistance 30. Protection from Fire does put a crimp into that, but itíll still burn(heh) through it pretty damn fast... and thatís not including the precision damage.
    Not an area spell, unfortunately, so not eligible for spellwarping. I've run into the same problem on eldritch theurge and arcane archer builds.

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    ^^^

    In a system that gives us Pun-Pun and the argument of the Locate City Bomb and/or Wightpocalypse, there's no way to turn a target spell into an Area-affecting spell?

    EDIT: Also, hang on -- Greater Fireburst's effect is a "burst of fire", i.e. its a Burst spell, i.e.e. that's an area-affecting spell and thus an Area spell for Spellwarp Sniper to work on. Am I missing something?

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    How about Parboil? That becomes a non-save Int damage spell!

    Wall of Smoke could be interesting - the spell specifies that passing through the wall is save or nauseated for one round, would that effect apply on a hit?

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    ^^^

    In a system that gives us Pun-Pun and the argument of the Locate City Bomb and/or Wightpocalypse, there's no way to turn a target spell into an Area-affecting spell?

    EDIT: Also, hang on -- Greater Fireburst's effect is a "burst of fire", i.e. its a Burst spell, i.e.e. that's an area-affecting spell and thus an Area spell for Spellwarp Sniper to work on. Am I missing something?
    I think Troacctid interprets that since itís listed as ďeffectĒ and not ďareaĒ it doesnít work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    How about Parboil? That becomes a non-save Int damage spell!

    Wall of Smoke could be interesting - the spell specifies that passing through the wall is save or nauseated for one round, would that effect apply on a hit?
    No, these explicitly donít work; both of those depend on Fort saves.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    In a different vein, Hunter's Eye, available via Unseen Seer, can add significant precision damage. This is particularly compelling after you can persist it at level 15.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    In a different vein, Hunter's Eye, available via Unseen Seer, can add significant precision damage. This is particularly compelling after you can persist it at level 15.
    I was looking for spells to spellwarp or pre-packaged rays; I believe I spelled(heh) this out in the OP.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    No, these explicitly donít work; both of those depend on Fort saves.
    Oops yes, - I should have read that more closely. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    Oops yes, - I should have read that more closely. Thanks.
    Nah, itís okay. And those spells are pretty interesting anyways.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    I really like Great Thunderclap. It's not as strong as a no-save daze, but it's kinda delightful. (The 3rd level version from Spell Compendium, not the 7th level version from Magic of Faerun.)
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    I really like Great Thunderclap. It's not as strong as a no-save daze, but it's kinda delightful. (The 3rd level version from Spell Compendium, not the 7th level version from Magic of Faerun.)
    Does it deal damage? Otherwise, nah Iím pretty sure you canít spellwarp it. Could be useful as-is, though.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Does it deal damage? Otherwise, nah Iím pretty sure you canít spellwarp it. Could be useful as-is, though.
    You can alter the form of certain area spells into rays as you cast them. As a free action, you can warp a 1st-level area spell with instantaneous duration and a range greater than touch. The spell's level, components, range, and damage (if any) remain unchanged.
    Instantaneous duration and range greater than touch. Sudden Raystrike, however, says:

    Whenever the target of one of your ray spells is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus of not), you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage with your ray spell. (If your ray spell doesn't deal hit point damage, this extra damage doesn't apply.)
    So yes, it doesn't have to be a damage-dealing spell to qualify for spellwarp. Or if you had to make it deal damage, there's lots of metamagic feats that turn it into a damage-dealing spell (e.g. a Fell Drain spell which does ability damage.)

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    The more you know then! So Sudden Raystrike doesnít apply on spells like Ray of Enfeeblement I guess, since it doesnít deal hit point damage?
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    The more you know then! So Sudden Raystrike doesnít apply on spells like Ray of Enfeeblement I guess, since it doesnít deal hit point damage?
    Not as I understand it.

    EDIT: That said, Snowcasting (Frostburn) + Flash Frost Spell (PHB 2) give a spell hit point damage, which Sudden Raystrike can then apply to. That's step 1 and 2 on the Locate City Bomb (which doesn't work once you get to Explosive Spell, I know, but these two do.)

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Not as I understand it.

    EDIT: That said, Snowcasting (Frostburn) + Flash Frost Spell (PHB 2) give a spell hit point damage, which Sudden Raystrike can then apply to. That's step 1 and 2 on the Locate City Bomb (which doesn't work once you get to Explosive Spell, I know, but these two do.)
    Flash Frost Spell also requires the spell to already deal damage. If you want to add damage to a non-damaging spell, what you need are hellcat gauntlets.

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Flash Frost Spell also requires the spell to already deal damage. If you want to add damage to a non-damaging spell, what you need are hellcat gauntlets.
    I think what you meant was that Flash Frost Spell applies only to spells that have the [cold] descriptor and affect an area. There's nothing in the feat that says the spell has to already deal damage, albeit the fact it has to affect an area does mean it can't apply to Ray of Enfeeblement and we have to look at something else. That it does 2 points "extra" damage does not mean the spell has to already do damage, 2 points extra damage from 0 damage = 2 damage.

    (That said, that combo also means you can get Sudden Raystrike to apply to any spell that can be spellwarped - because only area effect spells can be warped, and Flash Frost Spell + Snowcasting means that spell does hitpoint damage, which then means that Sudden Raystrike applies to it.)

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I think what you meant was that Flash Frost Spell applies only to spells that have the [cold] descriptor and affect an area. There's nothing in the feat that says the spell has to already deal damage, albeit the fact it has to affect an area does mean it can't apply to Ray of Enfeeblement and we have to look at something else. That it does 2 points "extra" damage does not mean the spell has to already do damage, 2 points extra damage from 0 damage = 2 damage.
    Well, it's the same wording used for sneak attack, so applying that interpretation consistently would also mean that rogues deal sneak attack damage on attacks that don't normally deal damage, like the touch attack to initiate a trip attempt. Just as an example. A lot of extra damage effects use the same wording. I'm just saying, it'll cause a lot of weird stuff elsewhere, is all.

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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I was looking for spells to spellwarp or pre-packaged rays; I believe I spelled(heh) this out in the OP.
    Sure---I just hadn't realized that Spellwarp Sniper's can get (slowly) scaling damage off any damaging area spells. That's kind of neat.

    W.r.t. effects, there is a 4th level spell called "Desert Burial" In Dragon #331 which applies a no-save helpless condition when used by a spellwarp sniper. It only works when the ground is dirt/mud/sand but is otherwise decent including SR:No.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    I recall looking at Downdraft as a potentially amusing spellwarp.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Well, it's the same wording used for sneak attack, so applying that interpretation consistently would also mean that rogues deal sneak attack damage on attacks that don't normally deal damage, like the touch attack to initiate a trip attempt. Just as an example. A lot of extra damage effects use the same wording. I'm just saying, it'll cause a lot of weird stuff elsewhere, is all.
    Well for sneak attack at least, it's stated in - I think either Complete Arcane or Complete Scoundrel? - if a spell deals ability damage/drain the sneak attack is negative energy hit point damage, so that one is fairly less headache-inducing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Sure---I just hadn't realized that Spellwarp Sniper's can get (slowly) scaling damage off any damaging area spells. That's kind of neat.
    I think half the point of the class is converting area spells into rays that do the exact same damage and can also be used to apply precision damage. The other half is the other stuff based on rays; especially the capstone.

    W.r.t. effects, there is a 4th level spell called "Desert Burial" In Dragon #331 which applies a no-save helpless condition when used by a spellwarp sniper. It only works when the ground is dirt/mud/sand but is otherwise decent including SR:No.
    Uh... okay, nice find, but I want to stick with first-party. Setting-specific spells are fair game, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I recall looking at Downdraft as a potentially amusing spellwarp.
    Ah, that spell. I believe Saintheart said in their RHoD handbook that Downdraft can be a "screwed if they fail their save and possibly screwed even if they make it", as a large part of that campaign is fighting dragons and 50 ft. is still a lot to be pushed when it's straight down. Actually it's pretty much even if it's any other direction but you get what I mean.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2019-12-20 at 07:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Spells for Spellwarp Snipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Ah, that spell. I believe Saintheart said in their RHoD handbook that Downdraft can be a "screwed if they fail their save and possibly screwed even if they make it", as a large part of that campaign is fighting dragons and 50 ft. is still a lot to be pushed when it's straight down. Actually it's pretty much even if it's any other direction but you get what I mean.
    Partially from the damage, but if you pick your location right, the dragon is then pancaked into the ground right in front of you, where, prone, it has a -4 to melee AC, -4 to its attack rolls, and has to blow a move action on standing up (and absorbing AoOs), and then its other move action on getting back into the air. There's some context in there because the young dragons in RHOD mostly have poor maneuverability, which in tactical combat means it moves 10 feet in strike range, then goes up at half speed, which means it can only go about 30 feet altitude and then has to 'stop' -- because it has to keep half its movement in reserve or fall out of the air again. Want to do any turns, the distance gets even shorter. That's still almost close enough for sneak attack.

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