What are you favorite tiers to play at?

[bendking]

As the title says, what do you consider to be the ideal character level of playing in 5e?
I would say I'm not a fan of Tier 1 since it's too simple, and I like 2nd tier a lot. Haven't ever gotten a campaign to Tier 3 and 4 so can't say much about them, though I suspect I'll like Tier 3 and not like Tier 4.
What is your experience with the different tiers and where did you have the most fun in combat and/or roleplaying?

[Teaguethebean]

In my experience tier 4 is almost impossible to play at but 2 and 3 are very fun.

[Daphne]

I like late tier 1, early tier 2: starting at 3rd and finishing around 6th to 8th level.

5th level spells are already little over the top for me, and levels 1-2 offers too little and combat is too swingy.

[Man_Over_Game]

Ideally, level 6. Too high of a level makes the skill-to-magic ratio really friggin' weird. Too low of a level means fewer options and simpler enemies.

[Eldariel]

Tier 4+; with the cave-at that assumes everyone is playing a full caster. The game is great...but of course non-casters are practically invalidated, because 5e design paradigm fails pretty hard higher up (as is tradition). Being able to shape reality at whim (but with rules) makes for a wonderful game of wits (as long as such power exists on all sides involved), but it gets pretty dull when:
1) Somebody is not familiar with their abilities and thus either takes forever to do anything (in combat, an experienced player can play their turn in 1 minute tops while an inexperienced player can take 10 minutes or more) or can't really participate OR
2) Somebody lacks the ability to shape reality (which is really the whole point of playing on this high a level)


A pity the system lacks equivalent design for higher levels, to be honest. It would be loads of fun to play martials that play a bit akin to Greek Gods but unfortunately the game only offers casters such an experience.

[Pandyman]

I think tier 2 going into tier 3 is probably my favorite, this is where casters start to feel really good and martials by this level typically have a decent array of options. Tier 4 is really fun to think about, but I've only ever played a one shot in tier 4. It's definitely fun to think about what you can do at 17-20 and while mages are altering reality at this level, I don't think that diminishes the fun of quivering palm spam, paladin smite machine gun, rogue with a million stealth, etc.

[DrLoveMonkey]

I’ll echo a lot of the other posters and say late tier 2 to early 3. Casters start to pull away kind of hard by the end, but enough of the right magic items can still make up for it, not fully but it’s manageable. Also the enemies are interesting and diverse. At late 3 and through 4 half the classes start to feel really irrelevant and some stuff can break down a bit.

It’s really fun for a while and if people picked the right kinds of character, but it doesn’t have a lot of staying power for me.

[TheUser]

Mid/late tier 2 up until late tier 3

[NaughtyTiger]

late tier 1, early tier 2.

combat is still risky, but within the players' control
i am still learning my character (theory and actual play differ) and how he or she plays with the team.

[8wGremlin]

tier 1, tier 2

Before system mechanics break down and it all falls apart. (nearly every single game, at tier 4)

[Safety Sword]

The game really works best at 2nd - 13th level in my experience.

I inadvertently kill way too many 1st level characters through shear bad luck with rolls and after 7th level spells magic gets a bit wobbly at times.

[Zhorn]

start campaign at the upper edge of tier 1 (warm-up prior to getting lv5 power spike)
meat of campaign tier 2, and a bit into tier 3
end campaign in upper tier 3

tier 4 reserved for DMs and stories deserving of them.

[Trustypeaches]

Tier 2 and very early Tier 3.

[Keravath]

I've played characters from 1-16 so far. Tier 1 has limited options but begins to differentiate at 3rd level when most classes choose archetypes. Tier 3 has been fun (I have three characters in tier 3 - 11, 14 and 16). The options expand and it is really a lot of fun.

I haven't played at tier 4 yet though I have chatted with some who have. The spells get powerful (like Wish etc), however, a 20th level caster has one 9th level spell, one 8th level spell and two 7th level spells. 7th level spells are available at level 13, 8th level spells at level 15 (both in tier 3) and tier 3 is still fun to play. In addition, the number of these spells are extremely limited. Yes, they can have a big effect on ONE encounter, but if the targets make their saving throws (which against tier appropriate opponents isn't uncommon) then the spell slot may do nothing. (I am leaving out an infinite army of simulacrums which most DMs wouldn't allow in the first place .. I wouldn't).

On the other hand, the 20th level fighter has 6 feats and four attacks, likely with magical weapons, and most creatures can be hit, even spell casters. Level 20 monks can stun, they can get four chances/turn if they hit, this can force targets to burn legendary saves or they may end up stunned. The monk is also proficient with all saves. Level 20 paladin has a +5 (assuming charisma 20) aura extending 30'. They can also cast circle of power giving advantage on saving throws vs spells to every team mate within the area.

Although the spells of high level casters are powerful, the limited quantity tends to balance things out over an adventuring day. If your level 20 caster goes out and uses all their 1/day resources in one fight then they will win and will be unbalanced. On the other hand, if they have to spread those out over several encounters in a day, they are still powerful but end up much closer to all the other classes. The same issue happens at lower levels in 1 encounter/day groups but having 9th level spells really makes it more noticeable.

Anyway, from the tier 4 content I have read and folks I have talked to, the main changes are in terms of encounter/adventuring day design and suitable opponents for these world shaking heroes. Casters who can take long rests after every encounter will dominate, if there are more encounters then this may not be the case depending on the encounters.

(My highest wizard is 10th level or so, and I have to watch spell slot usage since I never know if the days adventures will go 2 encounters or 8 ... so choosing when to use polymorph, animate objects, synaptic static, fireballs ... reserving slots for counterspell or dispel magic, shield, absorb elements ... means that managing spell slots is always an issue. One session in dungeon of the mad mage, I used a fireball on the first encounter against half a dozen opponents, then we had a second encounter against more in which I used another fireball (I was level 6 or 7 or so), then we had another encounter against 10 opponents in which I didn't use a fireball since I only had 1 or 2 high level slots left, then we had another encounter with the Xanathar base with 20 to 30 opponents at which point I decided I had to use the remaining slots on fireballs, we had one more encounter against a handful of opponents before we had more or less cleared the level and could set up a hut and take a long rest ... but that entire sequence left my wizard with a couple of spells slots reserved for shield left. If my character had used two fireballs on each of the first two encounters they would have been easy but the party could have TPKd when we encountered the base. It is up to the DM to create encounters and adventuring days that push the resource usage of long rest classes. In this case my character contributed when needed but the other characters in the group made all the difference. Overall, things were pretty balanced due to resource usage issues but the DM has to makes sure this happens.)

To answer the OPs question - late tier 1 through tier 3 are fun and enjoyable with different challenges due to the wider range of choices available as you level up. I haven't played tier 4 yet.

[EvilTwinSkippy]

I like late tier 1, early tier 2: starting at 3rd and finishing around 6th to 8th level.

Yep, agreed. Pretty much right there.

It's always bugged me that Adventurer's League lets players use Downtime points to fast forward past level 4. Why? Level 4 is a sweet spot. It's still pre-Fireball/Extra Attack, so it's not stupidly overpowerer or broken, but still pretty powerful and fun for a Tier 1 game.

[Evaar]

Tiers 2 and 3.

Tier 1 is too simple for me. I haven’t yet dipped more than a toe into Tier 4.

[col_impact]

Gotta be Tier 4.

[Ogre Mage]

All of Tier 2. I also like Tier 3 but in my experience as we get into the latter stages of it the game is falling apart. I flat-out hate Tier 1. I have never played with a DM who could manage a Tier 4 game properly.

I'd say my ideal game runs from Levels 5-14.

[Spiritchaser]

I can’t speak to playing but DMing? Anything but tier 4, and I haven’t even gone that deeply into tier 4.

Even at the beginning of tier 4 though, any semblance of balance seems to disintegrate and it’s just exhausting to try and keep ATs with radically different capabilities somewhat equally relevant.

[Darkstar952]

My preferred zone is probably levels 3 through 14.

I like the low power level of tier 1 but find levels 1 and 2 can be a little swingy and the players don't have many abilities to mitigate it, combined with most classes not getting their subclass until lvl 3.

Beyond level 14 I find things always start to fray apart as the powers and resources available tend to just spiral out of control.

[diplomancer]

Favourites are late tier 2 and tier 3.
Tier 1 is nerve-racking.
Tier 4 imposes on the DM the necessity of a very fast plot. Give even 1 week of downtime and full casters get a lot more powerful than martials, breaking the game. Alternatively, there can be a gentlemen's agreement that the full casters will not use the downtime to break the game. That could also work.

[bendking]

For those who say they prefer early-mid Tier 3, why? What goes wrong in late Tier 3?

[diplomancer]

For those who say they prefer early-mid Tier 3, why? What goes wrong in late Tier 3?

Probably Teleport and Simulacrum at mid tier 3. Late tier 3 there is Clone and Demiplane, which are already strong enough to break the game given enough downtime and money. I'd say starting from at least 15th level the game either has to speed up considerably ("no downtime for you!") or casters (and wizards in particular) have to refrain from abusing the extra time they have. There are also some Conjure Fey/Celestials/Fiends with Planar Binding shenannigans that a party starts pulling off easily.

So, in general- starting around level 7 spells, there are spells of very long duration, that don't require concentration, and that can have a very considerable effect on the game if you allow players to cast them regularly during downtime. To me, that is the main issue, but there might be others that I don't know of.

[DrLoveMonkey]

For example an Illusionist can use Mirage Arcane to make a one mile square city that lasts a day, and with malleable illusion can basically be a god in that mile. They snap their fingers and the city dissolves into swampland, or wave their hand and form a new building. You could even chain them in ten day cycles to have ten square kilometres where reality is yours to control, and with a ten minute cast time you can even cast it over an area you’re about to go into and use it offensively.

That really starts to make things hard for a DM, especially with clever players. It also makes the people who can’t do that feel a bit like sidekicks.

[sithlordnergal]

I prefer tier 3 and tier 4 over everything else. Tier 1 is a dull slog for me now days, you're to low level to actually do anything of importance and nothing has really come online by that point.

Tier 2 is a bit better, but I'm tired of it as well. You have better spells, abilities, and, generally, gear, but you're still not strong enough to face some of the actually interesting monsters.

Tier 3 is when things really start becoming fun. You have access to some higher end abilities and spells, and you're able to face off against groups with some of the coolest monsters in the book.

Things like a Vampire with The Hungry, which deals extra damage whenever it sees something heal, or a Star Spawn Seer with a Star Spawn Hulk that can do 12d10, or is it 12d12, unavoidable psychic damage as an AoE if you don't watch your positioning.

And then Tier 4, when your build is done and you can really put it through its paces to see just what you can do. While also still facing some of the deadliest challenges the game has to offer

EDIT: I find Tier 3 and above is also when classes that rely on summons or undead start to bottom out and become easier to deal with, with the exception of Shepherd Druids, because most of the things you face at those tiers are resistant or immune to non-magical weapons. And are able to do enough damage to one shot a zombie with an AoE

EDIT 2: I also find players are more willing to accept changes to monsters at those tiers. I like to add resistances and immunities to my enemies, particularly Immunity to Non-Magical Weapons, Resistance to Magical Weapons, and immunities/resistances to magical damage types like Radiant, Necrotic, Fire, ect. I also enjoy swapping immunities around, so if you use a fire spell a creature could choose to become immune to fire as a reaction, and on the next round it could become immune to cold and lose the fire immunity

[Keravath]

Yep, agreed. Pretty much right there.

It's always bugged me that Adventurer's League lets players use Downtime points to fast forward past level 4. Why? Level 4 is a sweet spot. It's still pre-Fireball/Extra Attack, so it's not stupidly overpowerer or broken, but still pretty powerful and fun for a Tier 1 game.

I think there are two main reasons ..

1) So that folks can continue to play with friends even if there is a one level gap in their character levels. Sometimes someone misses a session and having the catching up mechanism allows them to advance to the next tier to play with their friends.

2) Under the XP system that was in use for the first 7 seasons, levels 4-5 and 10-11 require proportionally more XP than any other level in their respective tiers. Level 4 -> is 2700->6500 = 3800XP. Tier 1 modules typically gave out average XP and as a result you could spend 50% longer at level 4 than it took to get there in the first place. (Tier 1 modules would run 300-> 1500XP ... with most being 600->900. You could reach level 4 in 3-4 games and it would take another 3-4 to reach level 5). In Tier 2 XP goes up so the number of modules to reach the next level was around 2 depending on which ones were run. This made leveling from 4-5 or 10-11 more onerous than any other levels so the "Catching up" rules also helped with that. Of course with the season 8,9 rules "catching up" isn't really required except to keep up with friends now.

[bendking]

Probably Teleport and Simulacrum at mid tier 3. Late tier 3 there is Clone and Demiplane, which are already strong enough to break the game given enough downtime and money. I'd say starting from at least 15th level the game either has to speed up considerably ("no downtime for you!") or casters (and wizards in particular) have to refrain from abusing the extra time they have. There are also some Conjure Fey/Celestials/Fiends with Planar Binding shenannigans that a party starts pulling off easily.

So, in general- starting around level 7 spells, there are spells of very long duration, that don't require concentration, and that can have a very considerable effect on the game if you allow players to cast them regularly during downtime. To me, that is the main issue, but there might be others that I don't know of.

Kind of seems like it's mostly Wizards that break mid-late tier 3. What experience do you have with other full casters breaking stuff?

[diplomancer]

Kind of seems like it's mostly Wizards that break mid-late tier 3. What experience do you have with other full casters breaking stuff?

Wizards are the worst "offenders", true, but the Conjure Celestial/Fey/Fiends + Planar Binding combo does not require wizards, warlocks and sorcerers can go on a murdering rampage to create a zombie army and stuff it on their demiplane to bring them out at the appropriate moment (takes a long time, not recommended in most campaigns), and I'm pretty sure that Plane Shift, though it does not break the campaign, significantly changes it. So does Resurrection.

[sleepyhead]

Any one mind telling me what the tiers are? is like 1-4 level 5-9, 10-14, 15-20?

[Daphne]

Any one mind telling me what the tiers are? is like 1-4 level 5-9, 10-14, 15-20?

It's 1-4, 5-10, 11-16 and 17-20.