The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    so I've seen a lot of people harp on about sharpshooter and great weapon master's power level in combat and it had me thinking. I personally homebrew a lot of stuff on my games to make things feel more balanced which is what I'm aiming to do here but one thing I thought about which might be interesting is the idea of fixing the great weapon master and sharpshooter feats by making every other weapon feat have a similar level of overall power or have the same type of attack (-5 attack but +10 damage.)

    This style of changes would make the weapon feats of the game balanced while not directly debuffing great weapon master or sharpshooter. It's something which makes any type of weapon fighter feel powerful with each feat having extra effects to make them feel distinct.

    This said this could make more of a distinction between weapon users and non weapon users and could possibly make weapons outweigh most magical means of consistent damage, a problem when you look at the eldritch machine gun warlocks of the world.

    Overall this has me interested in what other people would think, would buffing every other weapon style to be on par with great weapon masters and sharpshooters be a decent idea or would it be a bit too game breaking?

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    It would just mean that Strength is useless
    If you can do the same damage of a maul with a rapier or a whip why would you invest in Str?
    The game is ok as it is

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    It would just mean that Strength is useless
    If you can do the same damage of a maul with a rapier or a whip why would you invest in Str?
    The game is ok as it is
    Eh I wouldn't say that and that's not exactly what I mean. A rapier doing a -5 +10 attack isn't really doing the same as a maul with there being a 2.5 damage difference in the maul's favor and a longsword is doing the same damage as a rapier doing that same attack. Then a whip is similar but the damage difference is increased to 4.5 so that doesn't check out. Plus strength has it's advantages outside of that when you consider that heavy armour is usually 1 AC above light armour.

    I'm not saying they do the exact same damage but more that they all get a feat with a type of -5 +10 style attack.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Bannan_mantis View Post
    Eh I wouldn't say that and that's not exactly what I mean. A rapier doing a -5 +10 attack isn't really doing the same as a maul with there being a 2.5 damage difference in the maul's favor and a longsword is doing the same damage as a rapier doing that same attack. Then a whip is similar but the damage difference is increased to 4.5 so that doesn't check out. Plus strength has it's advantages outside of that when you consider that heavy armour is usually 1 AC above light armour.

    I'm not saying they do the exact same damage but more that they all get a feat with a type of -5 +10 style attack.
    So 2.5 more damage is enough more damage when you look at a base of at least 13-15 from feat and abiltiy mod. Intresting.
    What about the gain of a free hand for a shield? You trade some damage for a lot of extra defense.

    1 AC is not that appealing if you compare the rest.

    Str: Athletics is superior to acrobatics but in combat they do about the same. Carrying capacity that comes out only with the variant encumbrance

    Dex: Acrobatics that is inferior to athletics, plus stealth, sleight of hand and thieves' tools. Initiative one of the most important things in the game. And the saving throw that is vastly superior to strength.

    Strength is trash if you take away the only thing going for them in melee.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    So 2.5 more damage is enough more damage when you look at a base of at least 13-15 from feat and abiltiy mod. Intresting.
    What about the gain of a free hand for a shield? You trade some damage for a lot of extra defense.

    1 AC is not that appealing if you compare the rest.

    Str: Athletics is superior to acrobatics but in combat they do about the same. Carrying capacity that comes out only with the variant encumbrance

    Dex: Acrobatics that is inferior to athletics, plus stealth, sleight of hand and thieves' tools. Initiative one of the most important things in the game. And the saving throw that is vastly superior to strength.

    Strength is trash if you take away the only thing going for them in melee.
    Technically I meant 2.5 damage per attack so it's actually 5 more points of damage with extra attack which, when you calculate it, tends to be close in usefulness as +2 AC from a shield.

    Additionally a lot of your dex points aren't really universal. Stealth, sleight of hand and thieves' tools isn't so useful on a fighter when a rogue can fill those roles out better (plus with a smaller modifier for stealth you'll probably be a detriment since the lower score is the overall score you use when attempting to stealth with another person.) Initiative is very powerful on hit and runners since getting to act first is very important for their style of play but on a fighter who just wants to get into melee that's not so much the case. Then finally dex saves are definitely more useful than strength ones but overall most fighters can tank the damage of a dex save rather well with their high HP, plus if you're the tank of a group you're getting attacked way more often then you are getting hit with spells so that +1 AC is useful.

    Now I'm not saying that dex is equal in strength, it's overall definitely more useful, but just that it doesn't make strength useless.

    Also I kind of feel like this might be getting a bit too argumentative on both sides, I've gotten into big arguments online before which went into throwing insults so let's both try to be a bit more civil and diplomatic about this.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    My biggest concern is that you would be able to do -5/+10 with a weapon while also holding a shield. The two existing feats are specifically on weapons that require two hands and therefore don't allow a shield. So, you are making the sacrifice of AC to get higher damage. In your case that isn't necessary anymore.

    Also, do you want someone with a feat and the dueling fighting style at the same time? A potential +12 damage on every hit?


    It seems off to me, but in reality I would have to see it in play to know for sure.

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    I'm at the office and don't have my books, but, isn't this Great Weapon Mastery?

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I'm at the office and don't have my books, but, isn't this Great Weapon Mastery?
    Yes, the -5 to attack and +10 to damage is both Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Mastery. The premise of this post is "should I make a feat that does the -5/+10 for other weapons other than Great Weapons and Ranged Weapons?"

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    If you want to do this then do it.
    One of the problems for me is devaluating what little edge the great weapons had over the finesse ones. If you think that's ok then by any means do it.

    But you shouldn't allow for any of the -5 attack +10 damage feats to work with a shield. That's not only +2 AC that's at least +2 AC. Also the AC has increasing returns, if a creature would hit you with 40% of its attacks without a shield with it the number of hits is decreased by 10% so you will be taking roughtly 25% less damage against it.

    Also one handed weapons deal 4.5 average damage and with the dueling figthing style 6.5 average damage consistently. The two handed weapons deals an average of either 7 or 6.5 damage and with the figthing style the damage increases to 8.3 for the 2d6 weapons and 7.3 with the 1d12 weapons. That already wouldn't be worth the lower AC and in fact most GWM builds opt for the defense fighting style to make up a little for the lack of shield.

    At the end of the day you can probably do this with no problems for the versatile weapons when used with two hands and the throwing weapons when you make ranged attacks and you have a free hand.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    As others have said, the problem here is that you're taking away an advantage of two-handed weapons by making it open to all types of fighting. I don't think it gives that much problem, but I also have never tried it. And I've yet to see the appeal of a single one-handed weapon to fight (crunch-wise) so I may not be much of an authority on melees.

    Just try it, you can always change it back if you see that your games become worst somehow.

    Also, I feel like this really only bothers the two-handed melee fighters, since sharpshooter already works on all ranged weapons. I think.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    Personally I think it'd be better to have a different feat for one handed melee weapons and/or two weapon fighting. I agree that they could use a little something, but making them effectively identical to great weapons seems a little boring.
    Avatar by araveugnitsuga.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    You mention giving different feats to other weapons, which I think is probably the ideal -- it would encourage players to consider the benefit of their weapon choice and encourage changing weapon when another feat's effect is more useful in the context. E.g. Slashing Weapons getting a Cleave option (deal overflow damage to another Creature within reach on a kill), knocking prone or pushing with bludgeoning weapons (maybe only on a crit, depending on niche protection goals for open-hand monks), finesse weapons or dual-wielding getting a parry (though that's currently in feats), or two-handed weapon fighters being able to use a reaction on a miss to attempt another attack with the other weapon.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    This seems like a bad idea mathematically the greatsword wont be worth it at all.
    Greatsword deals 2d6(7)+str(5)+GWM(10)=22
    Meanwhile a Rapier deals 1d8(4.5)+dex(5)+dueling(2)+Feat(10)=21.5

    This hypothothetical involves them both having a 19 ac through plate and defense or Studded leather and a Shield. In total for a loss on stealth, dex saves, and initiative you gain .5 dmg.

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    Default Re: Possible Idea - giving all weapons a -5 +10 feat

    I gave the 'power attack' feature of -Prof/+ Prof X 2 to all weapons that have the heavy tag for my games. So the only Dex or finesse weapons that get it are longbow and heavy crossbow.

    I moved alot of the 'must have' martial feats onto the weapons and base class to give martials added flexibility.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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