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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    What's the specifics on the sunlight vulnerability?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    If a Fensir is exposed to direct sunlight, it's turned to stone at once, with no save allowed. If exposed to Sunburst, Sunbeam or that kind of spell, it gets a Fort save lest it be turned to stone, in addition to the normal effects of the spell.
    It's a considerable weakness that'll need some amount of resource to be negated. For this Reason, I feel LA +2 is just fine for the Fensir. LA -0 for the bigger version.
    Last edited by remetagross; 2020-01-15 at 06:16 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +2 and -0. They are like a 1.5 but I am more comfortable with a +2 than a +1.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    That is a drawback, yes, but I don't think that we should really deduct points for a disadvantage that is simply going to be hand-waved or bypassed to be conventionally playable.

    As such, I'll stick with LA +2 for the wizard caster and LA -0 for the large hulk.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2020-01-15 at 06:39 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    That is a drawback, yes, but I don't think that we should really deduct points for a disadvantage that is simply going to be hand-waved or bypassed to be conventionally playable.

    As such, I'll stick with LA +2 for the wizard caster and LA -0 for the large hulk.
    I agree with this. Maybe an asterisk is warranted. I vote +2 and -0 respectively. If we consider an asterisk... The same, but with an asterisk on the 2, I guess.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Fensir

    • Large giant (extraplanar) with reach
    • 4RHD (not amazing: medium BAB, 1 good save - but does come with MWP)
    • 40 ft speed: not bad.
    • +6 natural AC: also not bad.
    • Rock throwing: meh.
    • Spell-like abilities: at will transmute rock to mud and transmute mud to rock. A pair of at will 5th levels spells, while situational, is pretty nice. You can combo to trap enemies in rock.
    • Spells as a 5th level Wizard: nice. I higher than your HD.
    • Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision: decent senses.
    • Rock catching: very situational.
    • Sense twin: mostly for fluff.
    • Sunlight vulnerability: just like Tolkien trolls, you turn to stone in sunlight. No save. Ouch. There are defences (similar to what Vampires can use), but they are generally costly and inconvenient.
    • Str +10 Dex +2 Con +4 Int +2 Wis +2 Cha -4: net +16. Cha is likely to be a dump stat, so the penalty doesn't hurt too much.
    • Small, and not that great, racial skill list. Noticeably lacking any skills a Wizard will need.
    • Brew potion as a bonus feat - not amazing, but any bonus feats are nice. Will also help qualify for PrCs that require item creation feats.

    Large humanoid in form, can speak - gear and class progression should be no issue. You could make a workable gish from their chassis: innate MWP is nice for this, as is large size/reach. Main drawback is sunlight vulnerability, which can be a headache. There are some items that give immunity to petrification, from memory? Their fluff indicates they all know how to make a potion that acts as stone to flesh, but only for Fensirs. There was a recent thread talking about how Vampires defend themselves from sunlight, so their may be other tactics too.

    Casting of 1 level about their HD means at least LA +1. Books says +5. I'm happy to go along with LA +2 at this point.

    Also in agreement with LA -0 for Rakka.
    Last edited by Thurbane; 2020-01-16 at 02:44 PM. Reason: typos

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Funny, my first thought on reading about their vulnerability was that they were Tolkienesque trolls. Then again, The Hobbit was the first ever book I bought myself.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +2 verging on +3 and without the sunlight vulnerability I'd probably vote that. As is I kinda see the the sunlight vulnerability similarly to item familiar its either going to be used and have the DM destroy the character, or not used and massively rewarded if we give the creature a low LA because of it. -0 for the Rakka because its just bad.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    What did we give previous monsters with sunlight vulnerability? An asterisk or no? Not being able to travel in sunlight is a pretty bad weakness, but it's very likely to be dealt with "for cheap" (i.e. DM intervention rather than xp/gp expenditure), which kind of diminishes its importance in rating the fensir.

    Fensir are eligible for Primordial Giant, which grants +4 Intelligence/Charisma (costs you +4 Strength/+2 Constitution, though). Nice if you're going full caster.

    Fensir are gishy, but higher-power gishy (i.e. (nearly) full caster, wizard-based, not bard- or psywar-gishy), so that's my comparison. They enter Spellsword as fensir 4/wizard 2 (assuming you do need a wizard level for a PrC to advance), which isn't behind a typical bab 2/wizard 4 build, but does have two extra levels of casting. Hence, as a gish, it's probably good at +2. As a full caster, perhaps +1 would be appropriate, since physical stats aren't that useful, and your PrC entry is delayed (a fensir 4+1/wizard 1 enters a typical "8 ranks in x" PrC a level late, due to the LA, and that's assuming you can find the skill points--you may even have to burn a feat getting extra class skills). Then again, if you use Primordial Giant to shift your stats around, you end up with +6 Intelligence, which is pretty close to being worth it. Hence I'll agree with +2. And -0 for the crappy one.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2020-01-15 at 08:43 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    My votes go to either +2* or +3 for the normal Fensir, -0 for the Rakka.
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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    What did we give previous monsters with sunlight vulnerability? An asterisk or no? Not being able to travel in sunlight is a pretty bad weakness, but it's very likely to be dealt with "for cheap" (i.e. DM intervention rather than xp/gp expenditure), which kind of diminishes its importance in rating the fensir.

    Fensir are eligible for Primordial Giant, which grants +4 Intelligence/Charisma (costs you +4 Strength/+2 Constitution, though). Nice if you're going full caster.

    Fensir are gishy, but higher-power gishy (i.e. (nearly) full caster, wizard-based, not bard- or psywar-gishy), so that's my comparison. They enter Spellsword as fensir 4/wizard 2 (assuming you do need a wizard level for a PrC to advance), which isn't behind a typical bab 2/wizard 4 build, but does have two extra levels of casting. Hence, as a gish, it's probably good at +2. As a full caster, perhaps +1 would be appropriate, since physical stats aren't that useful, and your PrC entry is delayed (a fensir 4+1/wizard 1 enters a typical "8 ranks in x" PrC a level late, due to the LA, and that's assuming you can find the skill points--you may even have to burn a feat getting extra class skills). Then again, if you use Primordial Giant to shift your stats around, you end up with +6 Intelligence, which is pretty close to being worth it. Hence I'll agree with +2. And -0 for the crappy one.
    Most sun-vulnerable monsters either had ways to get around it or didn't suffer quite as much.

    That said, there's ways to mitigate it. An at-will continuous item of Cloak of Dark Power is relatively cheap. A small movable cover isn't hard to justify, and 20 strength means encumbrance shouldn't be a problem. Endure Sunlight, from libris mortis, isn't a long-term solution, but it does let you act normally for long enough to drop a No Light cantrip or teleport to safety. It might even be as easy as wearing 'clothing that covers the body completely', which is explicitly enough to protect vampires from daylight. That, or just don't go outside during the day.


    I forgot about primordial giant, which is indeed a very nice combo with fensir.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Are we supposed to be accounting for primordial giant, isn't it monsters as is, probably looking at feats and spells. I'd assume we would need to look at primordial giant by itself when we got to Xendric?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    Are we supposed to be accounting for primordial giant, isn't it monsters as is, probably looking at feats and spells. I'd assume we would need to look at primordial giant by itself when we got to Xendric?
    Eh, it's a CR +0, LA +0 template by default anyways. Nobody really thinks it's worth LA, apparently.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I vote LA +3 for the wizard guys.
    Closest point of comparison seems to be a fighter/wizard gish.
    And these guys measure quite well up to a fighter 2 /wizard 5.

    Yes they do have sunlight vulnerability.
    But im also assuming that will mainly become a rp hinderance.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I vote LA +3 for the wizard guys.
    Closest point of comparison seems to be a fighter/wizard gish.
    And these guys measure quite well up to a fighter 2 /wizard 5.

    Yes they do have sunlight vulnerability.
    But im also assuming that will mainly become a rp hinderance.
    Unless you're in the World's Biggest Dungeon, I doubt that it'll only be an RP problem! How are you supposed to fight outdoors?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Unless you're in the World's Biggest Dungeon, I doubt that it'll only be an RP problem! How are you supposed to fight outdoors?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Unless you're in the World's Biggest Dungeon, I doubt that it'll only be an RP problem! How are you supposed to fight outdoors?
    You do it at night. What sort of GM is going to accept a player into the party who literally petrifies in sunlight without having some way to mitigate that?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I was looking for means of being immune to petrification, but they are far more limited than I remember.

    • Amulet of Inviolate Form: only has 7 charges, and from my reading, you would need to expend 1 charge every round.
    • Ruby Cincture of Immutability: this may be more promising - "Once per day, you can instantly counter any effect that would significantly change your bodily form or composition.". Would this mean you are protected from ongoing effects, or would it only protect you for 1 round?
    • Haagenti (vestige): Immunity to Transformation - unfortunately, you would still be petrified, but can use a free action each round at the start of your turn to undo it. Anima Mage can let you access the vestige (although your Cha penalty may hurt if you go down this road - unless you are Primordial). Or simply using the Improved Bind Vestige feat.
    • Saint Template: with its unwelcome LA.
    • Dragon Ascendant 3: good luck meeting the reqs.
    • Proof against transmutation: should work, but as a +5 armor ability, is going to be costly.
    • I think there may be a soul meld as well?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    Are we supposed to be accounting for primordial giant, isn't it monsters as is, probably looking at feats and spells. I'd assume we would need to look at primordial giant by itself when we got to Xendric?
    Nope it is its own template that should be evaluated separately, though things like that can be very helpful to talk about since we do normally talk a bit about progression and optimization when doing these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I was looking for means of being immune to petrification, but they are far more limited than I remember.

    • Amulet of Inviolate Form: only has 7 charges, and from my reading, you would need to expend 1 charge every round.
    • Ruby Cincture of Immutability: this may be more promising - "Once per day, you can instantly counter any effect that would significantly change your bodily form or composition.". Would this mean you are protected from ongoing effects, or would it only protect you for 1 round?
    • Haagenti (vestige): Immunity to Transformation - unfortunately, you would still be petrified, but can use a free action each round at the start of your turn to undo it. Anima Mage can let you access the vestige (although your Cha penalty may hurt if you go down this road - unless you are Primordial). Or simply using the Improved Bind Vestige feat.
    • Saint Template: with its unwelcome LA.
    • Dragon Ascendant 3: good luck meeting the reqs.
    • Proof against transmutation: should work, but as a +5 armor ability, is going to be costly.
    • I think there may be a soul meld as well?
    Might be easier to look at items that give fog or darkness as constant effects then ways to see through them. Add in Endure Sunlight as a stopgap for when your effects get dispelled and should be pretty decent.

    AFB but don't Fensir have a size increase with like 1 rhd increase, or am I thinking of a different monster?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Might be easier to look at items that give fog or darkness as constant effects then ways to see through them. Add in Endure Sunlight as a stopgap for when your effects get dispelled and should be pretty decent.
    True, I was looking at different tactics. This thread has some relevant stuff (a Drow artifact, Cloak of Dark Power, Liquid Night etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    AFB but don't Fensir have a size increase with like 1 rhd increase, or am I thinking of a different monster?
    Might be thinking of something different: "Advancement: By character class". It has a favored class of Wizard, which makes sense.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    It is amusing you bring up the WLD, because there is an item that makes you immune to petrification in it. I am afb now, so I can't check for the name.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Petrification Immunity feat from Serpent Kingdoms would work, if you can qualify.

    Would the Yellow Veil of the IotSV work?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    This is starting to sound like a more reasonable version of "Iron Heart Surge the sun".
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Might be thinking of something different: "Advancement: By character class". It has a favored class of Wizard, which makes sense.
    Yeah thinking of the Lesser Flame Snake, the other night I was looking forward at what we would see in the near future and remember one of the monsters in a group only needed an rhd to increase in size...

    Anyways I think +2 and -0 seem fair for these; +2 seems well balanced with other gish

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I sing along with the choir: LA +2 for the caster, LA -0 for the thug. The sunlight issues mostly* just mean the PC has to pay a resource cost other PCs don't, because a DM who allows a fensir without allowing a mitigation won't have a game very long.

    * Mostly. There's a way to remove ANY kind of protection.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Really dont think +2 LA makes sense. Since its casting above its HD, then it means that it would get to outdo the fighter,
    while being almost equal to a regular wizard, with vastly improved stats and hp in return for a single caster level.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Really dont think +2 LA makes sense. Since its casting above its HD, then it means that it would get to outdo the fighter,
    while being almost equal to a regular wizard, with vastly improved stats and hp in return for a single caster level.
    Well, it could also be a full caster--which is as much its natural role as gishing, given that it's got casting beyond its HD--and in that case LA +2 would be on the high side, since it barely has anything for a caster (besides qualifying for Primordial Giant, which isn't really creditable to the fensir itself).

    At LA +2, a fensir has the same base attack as a wizard, less casting, worse skills, and worse class features. That second point of LA is effectively a dead level that ensures a fensir is going to be a little behind in base attack, casting, skills, and class features, compared to a human gish. I think higher physical stats are a fair trade for that.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Let's see... at LA +2, a Fensir Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 would just manage to reach the benchmark of BAB +16 and 9th-level spells. Doesn't sound too bad.
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    Question Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Let's see... at LA +2, a Fensir Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 would just manage to reach the benchmark of BAB +16 and 9th-level spells. Doesn't sound too bad.
    Whats the Fighter 1 for?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Whats the Fighter 1 for?
    Bonus feat and armor proficiency. Plus it allows you to swap out a level of Eldritch Knight for Spellsword.

    It's not necessary, but I don't think it's an unforgivable sin.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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