Why not calling Aarindarius (Aa for short, henceforth) for help? (Or that sending...)

[Peelee]

Hmm. Have we seen Aarindarius post-Familicide?

Are you suggesting a possible fondness for scales?

[Jasdoif]

Are you suggesting a possible fondness for scales?

I was thinking more like the existence of half-elves, the long lives of elves, and the "preferred propagation pattern" of the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) could result in elves being related by blood to observed human members of the Draketooths (Draketeeth?).

I suppose that doesn't impact the possibility of fondness for scales, though; Girard's grandparents represent the first time a human mated with a black dragon, but we're talking about elves.

[Dr.Zero]

They're definitely lying about the alternate plan in general; putting aside that Qarr would not, in fact, have to do things he knows would kill him, Durkon was not on the ship at the time, and raising V would take ten minutes, far longer than he could spare. Both of which V did not know.

That the IFCC members were lying is totally possible, nonetheless V thought to ask his master for help even before their appearance.

The giant is even on record saying he has no clue if Aarindarius would actually have been any help at all, it only mattered that V who was definitely not at their most rational thought it was at least plausible he could.

Sorry, who is the "he" in the "he has no clue"?

I imagine the conversation as follows:

- Vaarsuvius: Greetings, Most Excelling and Honored Great Master Aarindarius. This is me, Vaarsuvius, your most humble apprentice. In my travels I have uncovered that the World is but a Gigantic Cosmic Prison for an Eldritch Horror of such power that even the Gods are powerless against it. The creature is about to break free, destroying the world and everything in the Material Plane, as it has done thousands of times before. Would you not join me and my rag-tag party of misfits in one last ditch hopeless attempt against the odds to stop Armaggedon from happening?
- Aarindarius: I am sorry, noble Vaarsuvius, my most beloved student, but I am currently on vacation at Arborea.
- Vaarsuvius: On Vacation? I do not happen to remember you having ever taken a recess away from the arcane matters, my Master. Since when have you adquired such an habit?
- Aarindarius: Since twelve seconds ago.

Ah! Grammar aside, I could have written something like that.
But that sounds more like Julio, if you ask me.

Personally I find the argument "maybe V was wrong about Aa's power" kinda lacking for two reasons 1) I've explained already as, specially as adults, we perceive way better the limits of our previous teachers, in the case of V that should be even more clear, since he knows the spells he has seen casted by Aa, and knows the spells he can cast now; 2) point 1 notwithstanding, even if V was blatantly wrong about Aa's power, I see no explanation for him to be able to make a more correct guess now.

Said that, some explanations ring as quite plausible with me, starting with "he is unavailable, momentarily or definitely (dead)", anyway I'd like to see the point addressed in the comic, sooner or later.

[Jasdoif]

Sorry, who is the "he" in the "he has no clue"?

Probably referencing the latter of these posts.

Is Aarindarius indeed an epic-level wizard who could kill an ancient black dragon without bothering to look at her, or was that the fiends deceiving Vaarsuvius?

Hyperbole on the part of the illustration; it's a callback joke to the panel in #630 where he kills Qarr without looking. The fiends never actually made any claims other than that he could "intercede."

Could he actually have interceded in any meaningful way, or was that just something the fiends counted on Vaarsuvius not questioning, like Durkon being at the fleet and having a scroll of Sending?

I have no idea. Clearly, V thought it was at least plausible. That's all that really matters.

[woweedd]

I will too, for the most part. But when the author personally rants about a certain spell, explicitly calls it "narrative-breaking," and says it has no use... I'm going to make an exception and assume it's not going to be part of his narrative.

I mean, that same post called out Teleport as a plot-breaker, but that spell definitely exists in OOTS.

[CriticalFailure]

It seems more like narrative breaking spells are written around. The lack of castings of true res is easily explained by the fact that there is one cleric confirmed to be able to cast it, and his boss is not likely to spring for the components.

[Peelee]

I mean, that same post called out Teleport as a plot-breaker, but that spell definitely exists in OOTS.

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.

[woweedd]

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.

Or, as he has done, you could "control access" to True Res in the sense of "literally one person in the entire world can cast it, and he's not on speaking terms with our heroes".

[Peelee]

Or, as he has done, you could "control access" to True Res in the sense of "literally one person in the entire world can cast it, and he's not on speaking terms with our heroes".

Which loops us back around to:

Given the functional difference and the author's personal feelings towards the spell, then, I see no reason to stop headcanoning "they don't actually get that spell in this world."

[RatElemental]

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.

Not entirely true. True res can't bring back someone who has died of old age (and there are ways to magically age people), nor someone whose soul can't return for some reason (such as Lirian and Dorukan). You can also take someone out without killing them, such as with imprison, binding, trap the soul, flesh to stone, or just good old fashioned ability damage.

Side note, but Wish can recreate the corpse of someone who didn't leave one as one of its explicitly defined 'safe' options.

[Peelee]

Not entirely true. True res can't bring back someone who has died of old age (and there are ways to magically age people), nor someone whose soul can't return for some reason (such as Lirian and Dorukan).

Indeed, which I wrote as "virtually no restriction."

[CriticalFailure]

I just don’t understand why people would assume that when characters have discussed the spell.

[Peelee]

I just don’t understand why people would assume that when characters have discussed the spell.

Characters have discussed Japan, which doesn't exist for them. Characters discussing a thing doesn't mean it necessarily exists, and a Rogue and Ranger are not really authorities on Cleric spells.

[Forum Explorer]

Indeed. It's almost as if he can use Teleport without breaking the plot. The same can't be said if True Res; the only differences between it and Resurrection are that True Res doesn't need any parts of the body, and doesn't have any penalty for the rezzed. The Giant can give the villains a teleportation orb, or have a hired wizard teleport the Order for a side job, or what have you. There's no way of letting anyone have a True Res without breaking the narrative; literally anyone can be brought back with virtually no restriction.

Teleportation can have controlled access and no longer be problematic thematically. True Res can't.

I don't see how True Res is worse than Teleportation. So long as the party doesn't have easy access to it, it's basically the same as teleportation. For that matter, it's often just a slightly better Resurrection. Like if they have a battle against, I don't know, a chlorine elemental or something, and Elan dies in the fight, but they can bring him back with Resurrection just fine. If they had access to True Resurrection, nothing would change plot wise.

[RatElemental]

Characters have discussed Japan, which doesn't exist for them. Characters discussing a thing doesn't mean it necessarily exists, and a Rogue and Ranger are not really authorities on Cleric spells.

It has all the same restrictions as resurrection except for the part about needing a part of the corpse.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah but generally when characters refer to mechanics they do do with the understanding that d&d3.5 mechanics usually apply.

[Dr.Zero]

Probably referencing the latter of these posts.

Oh, I see, thanks.

Well, that the author has no idea about his own (very minor) character seems a bit strange. He could have replied just "yes" or "no, but it isn't important because... [same stuff he said]".
The fact that he didn't want to actually reply to the question, makes me wonder even more if the author really had already something planned for Aa.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking this.

[Dr.Zero]

I don't see how True Res is worse than Teleportation. So long as the party doesn't have easy access to it, it's basically the same as teleportation. For that matter, it's often just a slightly better Resurrection. Like if they have a battle against, I don't know, a chlorine elemental or something, and Elan dies in the fight, but they can bring him back with Resurrection just fine. If they had access to True Resurrection, nothing would change plot wise.

True Res is slightly different because, aside the old age and a greater bunch of diamonds, the death is always reversible and has no consequences (loss of the aforementioned greater bunch of diamonds aside).

I never GMed a campaign with high end level characters, but I can see the problem in lack of drama if I did:

"Your beloved wife has just been disintegrated by the evil guy!"
"Nooo!... Oh, wait, I can resurrect her!"
"And... uhm... her remains have been dispersed! No body to use!"
"NOOOO!... Oh, wait, I cast true resurrection then!"
"..."


Honestly I see less the problem in a webcomic, because the characters are going to be exactly the level the author wants, and, as you pointed out, the author could limit the access to the spell in other ways. But I suppose the simple fact that the reader knows that the dragon balls true resurrection spell can be used might reduce the suspense for the reader. And force the author to find lame excuses for not using it (cfr Terkla)[1].

[1]
"Save me with your neutralize poison!"
"I can't!"
a couple of panels later
"I will bring you back!"
"No, don't mind. If... uh... you can't love me, I prefer death."
"But just a moment ago you wanted to be saved by my neutralize poison."
"Yeah, that was to push some character growth into you. Geez, just roll with it!"

[Jannoire]

[1]
"Save me with your neutralize poison!"
"I can't!"
a couple of panels later
"I will bring you back!"
"No, don't mind. If... uh... you can't love me, I prefer death."
"But just a moment ago you wanted to be saved by my neutralize poison."
"Yeah, that was to push some character growth into you. Geez, just roll with it!"

After reading the strip... She didn't really wanted to be saved in the first place.
She was just surprised that Elan needed to 'find a way' to save her when Neutralize Poison is a bard spell. She never said anything about that spell being cast on her

[Aidan]

Oh, I see, thanks.

Well, that the author has no idea about his own (very minor) character seems a bit strange. He could have replied just "yes" or "no, but it isn't important because... [same stuff he said]".
The fact that he didn't want to actually reply to the question, makes me wonder even more if the author really had already something planned for Aa.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking this.

I think it's more of an unwillingness to potentially tie his own hands later on. Let's say that he intends to address why V hasn't contacted A yet, well that would be a good opportunity to establish clearly just how powerful A is. Just like how the Giant has said that he doesn't have the characters stats really written down, mostly to avoid tying his hands with that. My guess is that currently A could be anywhere from let's say level 12 to level 20, but we wont know which until A is seen in comic.

It's kind of like Schrodingers cat expect the Giant is Schrodinger and we replace the cat with an Elven wizard.

[Dr.Zero]

After reading the strip... She didn't really wanted to be saved in the first place.
She was just surprised that Elan needed to 'find a way' to save her when Neutralize Poison is a bard spell. She never said anything about that spell being cast on her

Yes, I remember.

As counter argument I can say that she neither did spit out the potion of heroism (which, increasing her saves, might actually have saved her, theoretically at least) nor stopped Daigo from going to search for antitoxins and other potions.

[woweedd]

Yes, I remember.

As counter argument I can say that she neither did spit out the potion of heroism (which, increasing her saves, might actually have saved her, theoretically at least) nor stopped Daigo from going to search for antitoxins and other potions.

To be fair, she hadn't yet confirmed that Elan genuinely would not, and would NEVER date her.

[RatElemental]

To be fair, she hadn't yet confirmed that Elan genuinely would not, and would NEVER date her.

Also you can choose to fail a save on purpose.

[brian 333]

There is a good reason to not call for outside assisstance, be it from Aarindarius or anyone else: panic reaction.

Suppose Aa decides to do a Hilgya instead of help. Next, the elf queen, (or whomever,) finds out and wants to go, along with her courtiers. Then everyone on the fringes of court want to go too, and suddenly every wizard and cleric capable of Plane Shift is being mobbed. People will kill to survive, or out of anger for being denied.

And once it begins it will spread over the Western Continent and across the sea. The OotS might succeed in fixing the rifts only to find their world torn by war and fratricide.

Best thing is to keep the whole issue on the down-low.

[Dr.Zero]

Also you can choose to fail a save on purpose.

This is an interesting point, because I'd be ok to make a character fail a dex save on purpose (since it usually means "avoid to jump aside") and a will save on purpose (which usually means "ignore your gut instinct" or "relax yourself and let the charm work"), but a fort save?
"You tell to your T cells to shut up and let the virus do its work"? Not going to happen at my table. (Aside, maybe, if dude has some really great control over his body, like autohypnosis and similar skills)

I'm going to check what is it for RAW, though (yeah, in years that I've played the game, I've never checked this).

Edit: ok, after a quick research, it seems that the answer is basically unknown, since apparently nowhere is explicitly said that you can generally fail your st, but when you can it is specified by the harmless tag or in the spell description. Everything else I read in this couple of minutes is on the line "I'd allow" "I wouldn't".
Couple of interned threads for reference:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-saving-throws
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com...if_you_have_a/

[Fyraltari]

There is a good reason to not call for outside assisstance, be it from Aarindarius or anyone else: panic reaction.

Suppose Aa decides to do a Hilgya instead of help. Next, the elf queen, (or whomever,) finds out and wants to go, along with her courtiers. Then everyone on the fringes of court want to go too, and suddenly every wizard and cleric capable of Plane Shift is being mobbed. People will kill to survive, or out of anger for being denied.

And once it begins it will spread over the Western Continent and across the sea. The OotS might succeed in fixing the rifts only to find their world torn by war and fratricide.

Best thing is to keep the whole issue on the down-low.

Actually people tend not to panic in the face of not-imminent clear danger and just assume that somebody else will fix it. See fourth panel.

[RatElemental]

Edit: ok, after a quick research, it seems that the answer is basically unknown, since apparently nowhere is explicitly said that you can generally fail your st, but when you can it is specified by the harmless tag or in the spell description. Everything else I read in this couple of minutes is on the line "I'd allow" "I wouldn't".
Couple of interned threads for reference:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-saving-throws
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com...if_you_have_a/

Both of those threads are for 5e. 3.5 RAW explicitly allows you to do so. Note the second quote that doesn't specify 'spell' and just says you can voluntarily forego a saving throw and accept the consequences.

[Dr.Zero]

Both of those threads are for 5e. 3.5 RAW explicitly allows you to do so. Note the second quote that doesn't specify 'spell' and just says you can voluntarily forego a saving throw and accept the consequences.

Ah, ok then.
I still think it doesn't make sense for fort saves, but RAW is RAW (and here is even RAI), so she could decide to fail it.