Control Water and snow

[Chronos]

My group has a history of using the Control Water spell to great effect, and yesterday, we added a new one to our tally. We were being chased by some enemies we'd rather not deal with, and there were a few inches of snow on the ground. Well, our cleric reasoned, snow is water, and if any water is "standing", snow is. So one can use the spell to create 10' high waves of snow, that move across the 100' area before crashing. Repeatedly, every round. Thus burying our enemies under immense quantities of snow, such that even if they can extricate themselves at all, it would take a very long time to catch up to us.

The DM read the spell, and re-read it, and concluded that, indeed, there's nothing in the spell description that says anything about the water being liquid.

Whumph.

[Damon_Tor]

"water" is a liquid by definition. In its solid form it's called "ice".

Overly liberal readings of spells like this lead to things like the players realizing their enemies are 75% water...

[Dork_Forge]

"water" is a liquid by definition. In it's solid form it's called "ice".

Overly liberal readings of spells like this lead to things like the players realizing their enemies are 75% water...

That's a very literal interpretation, I can see where you're coming from but in a fantasy setting what else would they call h20? Freezing and unfreezing even comes under the shape water cantrip. There's nothing particularly game breaking on burning a 4th level spell on a neat trick, but of course it can become abusable if the party gets carried away or the setting is always snow covered.

I do disagree on the blood aspect entirely though, just because something is mostly composed of water does not mean it still is. If that was the case almost every liquid would be the same.

[Tanarii]

How many suspended particulates can water hold before it is no longer water? At what point is there too much dirt or salt or plankton? Can you shape tea? Can you shape the water right out of alcohol instead of having to distill it?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Disclaimer: This post included no review of RAW in regards to eitherControl Water or Shape Water defining (or lack thereof) the term 'water'.

[Chronos]

Especially considering that many beverages are purer water than the stuff that's in the oceans. Even more so, if you consider the Great Salt Lake or the Dead Sea.

[Jophiel]

Snow and ice are water but I don't consider them to fall under "standing water" which is the requirement for making waves.

Flood: You cause the water level of all standing water in the area to rise by as much as 20 feet. If the area includes a shore, the flooding water spills over onto dry land. If you choose an area in a large body of water, you instead create a 20-foot tall wave that travels from one side of the area to the other and then crashes down.

If snow counts as "standing" then mountains are covered in standing water which is obviously not what the term means. The only application of Control Water I see as useful in snow would maybe be the Part Water feature. Flood specifies standing, Redirect specifies flowing and Vortex gives those caught within the option to swim out which strongly implies to me that it's used in liquid water, not 25' deep snow whirlpools. Though that last one would be pretty boss so I might let it go the once.

Edit: I should note that I don't make a point of worrying what happens at other tables so if a DM let it go and everyone had fun then it's all good by me even if I wouldn't have done it that way.

[NaughtyTiger]

"water" is a liquid by definition. In its solid form it's called "ice".

Overly liberal readings of spells like this lead to things like the players realizing their enemies are 75% water...

water is also the name of the molecule h20, regardless of phase.

[Coffee_Dragon]

In a fantasy setting, water is water, snow is snow and ice is ice. Usually water and ice/snow/cold will have distinct deities, elementals etc. There'd be spells called Control Snow and Control Ice. "Snow is water, so..." is some kind of non-fantastic Aristotelian thinking.

[Dork_Forge]

In a fantasy setting, water is water, snow is snow and ice is ice. Usually water and ice/snow/cold will have distinct deities, elementals etc. There'd be spells called Control Snow and Control Ice. "Snow is water, so..." is some kind of non-fantastic Aristotelian thinking.

But there isn't a spell called Control Snow/Ice and a quick perusal of the deities section in the phb doesn't show any god of water, ice or snow (the closest being god of sea and storms or winter), elemental wise I also couldn't see a clear separation of Water and Ice elementals, which if there were to be one I'd have expected to have seen it reflected in Mephits. Maybe what you said is true in other settings or older editions but from what I can see it just isn't the case in 5e.

[Jophiel]

It doesn't really matter if you have a deity of water or a deity of ice or both, "standing water" is a term that applies to non-moving bodies of liquid water. Snow isn't standing water, nor are glaciers or icicles nor are a fog-shrouded valley or a cloud top (to go in the other direction). Having 3" of snow in your backyard and having 3" of standing water in your backyard are two very different things. If a DM wants to let it go for Rule of Cool, great but it's not RAW (or likely RAI given the rest of the description about water flooding shores, etc).

[JoeJ]

water is also the name of the molecule h20, regardless of phase.

What is this "molecule" you speak of? Water is one of the four fundamental elements.

[Chronos]

Even in a magical world, it's clearly the same substance. Bring a bunch of snow indoors, and you end up with liquid water. And even back in editions that had ice elementals, they still had the [water] subtype.

[JoeJ]

Even in a magical world, it's clearly the same substance. Bring a bunch of snow indoors, and you end up with liquid water. And even back in editions that had ice elementals, they still had the [water] subtype.

I find that spell "physics" is most consistent if you assume it distinguishes by names rather than any physical or scientific trait. So Control Water would work on anything that the DM (representing the universe) would call muddy water, but not on watery mud. So when I, as DM, describe the scene, if I would be comfortable telling the players that the ground is covered with water, then Control Water should work. If I would not say that, then it won't.

For me, I'm aware that snow is a form of water, but in most contexts the words mean distinct things. I don't make watermen, or throw waterballs, or shovel water off my driveway. If I suggest to somebody that we go play in the water, I'd expect them to put on a swimsuit, not a parka. So, while there may be some special circumstances in which Control Water would affect snow, in general it won't (although if D&D had power stunts like some supers games, this would be a good one).

[RedMage125]

Control Water is basically Water Bending, and Water Benders could manipulate snow...

[JackPhoenix]

Control Water is basically Water Bending, and Water Benders could manipulate snow...

They could also manipulate someone's blood, so I wouldn't go there....

[NaughtyTiger]

Overly liberal readings of spells like this lead to things like the players realizing their enemies are 75% water...

yes! hold person and dominate person work great as blood bender spells.

[Chronos]

Blood bending was a super-secret, super-advance technique that only a few waterbenders learned. But every one of them could snowbend. Well, except maybe the equatorial swamp waterbenders, but they never had a chance to try.

Though Control Water is different from any sort of bending, in that it can create more of its substance. You can take a shallow puddle in a room, and use it to flood the whole room.

[ImproperJustice]

Honestly:

Sounds like it was a GM call for whether the spell works with snow, and they went with it.

I think I might have done the same thing.
Players being clever and using a resource to do so.
Sounds “cool”.

[GooeyChewie]

Blood bending was a super-secret, super-advance technique that only a few waterbenders learned. But every one of them could snowbend. Well, except maybe the equatorial swamp waterbenders, but they never had a chance to try.

The equatorial swamp benders get pretty close to blood bending with vine bending. It uses the same principle of bending the water inside a living being.