The Five Most Annoying Aspects of Star Wars

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rodin
The impression I had was that the Star Wars fandom took the movie very personally as a direct attack upon them.

I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong if that was not the case.

Well, I never did, and I grew up on the original trilogy.

I’m in the vanishingly tiny minority here in the Playground, but I loved Last Jedi, for some of the very reasons you mentioned. I never felt personally attacked for a single instant by any aspect of the movie.

In fact, I just watched it again a few nights ago, the same day it became available on Disney+. It has its goofy aspects, sure, but it’s my favorite of the trilogy.

Originally Posted by Hopeless
Anyway wasn't how Rian treated Luke enough of a shot at the OT fans…?

No. I didn’t feel this way at all.

[lord_khaine]

I took all of that as Johnson's attacks on JJ Abrams specifically, rather than on the Star Wars Fandom generally. But then, I'm clearly not a Star Wars fan because I don't hate the franchise and everything involved in it.

I honestly think the majority of the movie felt like one big shot aimed at the fans?
Though a lot of it might be linked to the direct attacks Johnson made at the fans in response to critique of the film.

[Rakaydos]

I honestly think the majority of the movie felt like one big shot aimed at the fans?
Though a lot of it might be linked to the direct attacks Johnson made at the fans in response to critique of the film.

So, it's not any one or dozen identifiable aspects of the movie that is an attack. No, it's the movie as a whole that forms a malicious assault out of inconspicuous components.

Can you understand that this kind of interpretation is entirely subjective, at least? That not everyone is going to subscribe to this sort of sweeping generalization?

[Hopeless]

I honestly think the majority of the movie felt like one big shot aimed at the fans?
Though a lot of it might be linked to the direct attacks Johnson made at the fans in response to critique of the film.

Yep that did make it personal.

As for the rest it felt more like they let an actual fan try his hand at a star wars movie, but let the braggart who really doesn't get star wars and is so egotistical he actually thought he could do better than George Lucas but really couldn't.

The more I learn about this, the more I wonder what the hell Disney or Lucasfilm were thinking letting that farce go ahead.

I'm hoping the Mandalorian makes it clear where they've been going wrong and they stop that ridiculous stupidity before it gets any worse!

I'm also hoping Marvel doesn't end up in the same boat!

[lord_khaine]

Can you understand that this kind of interpretation is entirely subjective, at least? That not everyone is going to subscribe to this sort of sweeping generalization?

All interpretation is by its very nature subjective.
I saw the movie once. Regreted the decision, and for obvious reasons dont feel like going though it again carefully to sift out all the subtle jabs.
At the same time, i think that so many fans feel insulted by Johnson likely dont come out of nothing.

[Rodin]

At any rate, that whole mess was tangential to what I was trying to say. The post-OT Star Wars movies fail as a collective effort because they can't decide what kind of movie franchise they want to be. Phantom Menace is a kids movie aimed at a much younger demographic than the OT. Clones splits its time between a Twilight-esque romance and high political drama and espionage. Sith is the most cohesive out of those three, but it's saddled with the mistakes of the earlier movies and winds up having its own problems with tone as a result. TFA tries to go back to the old formula that works, only for Last Jedi to shoot great gaping holes in it. Then you have Rogue One, which tries to do the "darker and edgier" thing in a franchise that doesn't really support it. And I say that as someone who quite likes Rogue One!

Say what you will about the Marvel movies, but you know what you're going to get when going into one of them. I'm going to see Rise on Tuesday, and even reading the spoiler-free reviews I have no freaking idea WHAT kind of movie it is.

I think this is also why the most liked Star Wars stuff is the TV shows. They take place over a longer period of time so they're free to develop their own style independent from a movie franchise that is flailing wildly.

[Leewei]

The Star Wars main series, to me, is all about recapturing the wonder of being a child, of living the hero's journey in a fantastic setting that is a galactic civilization (rather than Middle Earth-derived).

The final trilogy seems very inconsistent, plot-wise. Snoke came out of nowhere, Exogel and the arena full of Sith came out of nowhere. So much important stuff comes out of nowhere with little or no warning or explanation.

Partway through TRoS, it finally dawned on me what was going on. Everything was taking the back seat to the Rule of Cool. The plot was put together like an Axe Cop comic, with any consistency being simply an afterthought. Effects, dialog, acting, and music were all top notch, and very enjoyable if you simply watched uncritically. Once I switched my brain off, I enjoyed the rest of the movie thoroughly.

My twelve-year-old daughter hated the power creep. The Emperor's ability to paralyze the Resistance fleet was something she just couldn't get past. Younger audiences, age 7-10, probably found the movie thoroughly enjoyable. Which makes the PG-13 rating utterly bizarre.

[Hopeless]

Do you think they're doing the same thing that happened with Batman vs Superman?

We might be looking at an extended edition of TROS on Blu Ray, which is the only way to watch the true movie instead of the shortened version intended to insure more viewings despite it ruining the movie itself?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Hopeless
We might be looking at an extended edition of TROS on Blu Ray….

Pretty sure there’s no actual evidence this exists.

[Hopeless]

Pretty sure there’s no actual evidence this exists.

Popped over to Jedi Council Forums to see if there was any more information on this and looks like you're right.

[Rakaydos]

All interpretation is by its very nature subjective.
I saw the movie once. Regreted the decision, and for obvious reasons dont feel like going though it again carefully to sift out all the subtle jabs.
At the same time, i think that so many fans feel insulted by Johnson likely dont come out of nothing.

So your first impression was to take the movie not following your expectations as a personal attack?

Yea, not really following that line of reasoning.

[Forum Explorer]

All interpretation is by its very nature subjective.
I saw the movie once. Regreted the decision, and for obvious reasons dont feel like going though it again carefully to sift out all the subtle jabs.
At the same time, i think that so many fans feel insulted by Johnson likely dont come out of nothing.

Well I didn't feel attacked and quite liked the movie. But then again, I don't hold Star Wars on any sort of pedestal. I saw Johnson do something new, and considering the biggest complaint about TFA was how it was too much like ANH, I saw him as listening to fans if anything.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Last Jedi had good ideas just a really lousy script that should have been refined let alone someone to step in an correct the mistake of killing off Luke after Carrie Fisher passed away.

Nitpick: TLJ was in theaters before the Ultimate Space Princess left us for new adventures. So this couldn't happen.

[Mystic Muse]

Nitpick: TLJ was in theaters before the Ultimate Space Princess left us for new adventures. So this couldn't happen.

Other way around, based on what I can see. TLJ came out about a year after she died.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You're right, for some reason I thought the movie came out three years ago.

[Devonix]

Other way around, based on what I can see. TLJ came out about a year after she died.

It came out after she died, but they'd already finished the film for the most part, Changing something like her death would have required a major rewrite

[Peelee]

It came out after she died, but they'd already finished the film for the most part, Changing something like her death would have required a major rewrite

Not really. Ben kills her instead of incapacitated her, Holdo stuns Poe (hate TLJ stuns, the movie is instantly the worst of the ST for that alone), Luke doesn't say hi on Crait, done deal.

[Vinyadan]

About the potshots, I think that a scene like Luke throwing the lightsaber away feels more too self-satisfied than aggressive. I almost could hear an outside voice gleefully saying, "oh yea! we switched things around! you weren't expecting that, uh?". Which means not identifying with the main character, breaking of suspension of disbelief, and so on.

I think that Rey being a nobody was a great idea, however. And a good start to take the films away from being just the Skywalker family saga, although I like Kylo.

But if Poe is not challenged he will be a cardboard cutout protagonist that did not earn his place in the story. He would be an object not a subject.

You know, I used to wonder why they had created such a convoluted and redundant plot to glorify a secondary character like Holdo. Now instead I wonder why they dedicated such a convoluted and redundant plot to such a redundant secondary character like Poe.

I have no horse in this star wars race

Damn Rose, she stole all the race horses!

Which leads me to two things about that subplot. (I didn't rewatch to write this, so there may be mistakes) One is that Star Wars is generally a B/W morality, color coded for your convenience. So having the very normal if fairly rich people in the casino be evil wasn't conveyed well, especially since they had gone in there to look for an ally who was to be so brave as to board with them an enemy battleship. Second, Rose's backstory felt like a parody (we digged! they bombed us!) and her idea that only weapons could make money makes no sense (no one eats or uses fuel in the Galaxy. Oh wait...)

Overall I have enjoyed the movie, however. Mostly the visuals and the Rey/Kylo story.

[Forum Explorer]

About the potshots, I think that a scene like Luke throwing the lightsaber away feels more too self-satisfied than aggressive. I almost could hear an outside voice gleefully saying, "oh yea! we switched things around! you weren't expecting that, uh?". Which means not identifying with the main character, breaking of suspension of disbelief, and so on.

I think that Rey being a nobody was a great idea, however. And a good start to take the films away from being just the Skywalker family saga, although I like Kylo.



You know, I used to wonder why they had created such a convoluted and redundant plot to glorify a secondary character like Holdo. Now instead I wonder why they dedicated such a convoluted and redundant plot to such a redundant secondary character like Poe.

I really liked The Last Jedi, but I'm realizing I might be Rian's ideal audience. Cause you're right, it is a pretty hamfisted and blatant rejection. But my response was more along the lines of 'I wasn't expecting that, this is going to be interesting.' I do enjoy subversions quite a bit, at least when they are done well anyways. And I do think most of the subversions in TLJ were done well. With Luke's fight against Ren being downright my favorite moment in any of the movies.

I did enjoy the subplot, and the whole chase plot, even if in retrospect it doesn't make any sense. My biggest problem with the story was the lightspeed ram really. That was the most jarring moment for me, that immediately made me wince and go 'Oh God, the fandom is going to erupt over that.'

[Bohandas]

Second, Rose's backstory felt like a parody

The whole film was like a parody. The script honestly would probably have worked better as Spaceballs 2 than it did as Star Wars 8.

[Lemmy]

The whole film was like a parody. The script honestly would probably have worked better as Spaceballs 2 than it did as Star Wars 8.

Don't be silly... If Rian Johnson tried to write Spaceballs 2, he'd end up making Schindler's List.

[Rakaydos]

Luke tossing the saber away- what else is he going to do? TFA set us up with certain expectations of that scene, but given what TFA also established about luke- went into hiding after failing to train ben- the dramatic buildup was never going to survive meeting her hero. JJ turned Luke into a maguffin, Rian just looked at the kind of person that would be the maguffin JJ wrote.

[Precure]

All those expanded universe and sequel trilogy events that turned RotJ's happy ending into a descend into despair.

[Vinyadan]

Luke tossing the saber away- what else is he going to do? TFA set us up with certain expectations of that scene, but given what TFA also established about luke- went into hiding after failing to train ben- the dramatic buildup was never going to survive meeting her hero. JJ turned Luke into a maguffin, Rian just looked at the kind of person that would be the maguffin JJ wrote.

My problem was only with the scene. Because of Luke's attitude, there is a big disconnect between it and all of the previous movies. That was:

- his father's sword
- the sword Ben gave him

so it was bound to his first mentor (who also saved his life) and to his father (who also saved his life) before he fell to the dark side, when Luke's ultimate mission was to redeem Anakin.

But Luke doesn't just refuse it or throw it away in regret or disgust. He throws it away as if it had no importance whatsoever, which is obviously false and a deliberate slap in Rey's face.

This retrospectively makes sense, because, later in the movie, it turns out that Luke is now a trickster (the duel, and possibly training Rey while pretending to be doing his groceries). His reaction to the lightsaber was dissimulated. And being a trickster is a quality of Jedi hermits (Ben uses the force to deceive people, he lies to Luke, and lives under a false name; Yoda is as unassuming as he can, and doesn't reveal his identity to Luke until he has tested him). The oddity with Luke is that he wants to be a trickster hermit and reject Jedity at the same time, which shows how torn he is, as when he wants to burn down the tree but can't make it, and is out-tricked by Rey (who stole the texts) and Yoda (who goes through with a fake arson and cryptically hints to Rey having stolen the texts, unfortunately in a way that sounds like "look how awesome Rey is").

Luke is an organically written character, although I think that the movie may not really deliver that. Perhaps it would have been better if our point of view had been Luke's. You know, focus more on his internal struggle, rather than what Rey can see of it, and on how he lives his relationship with Rey, especially as she leaves as he once left Yoda to get trounced.

Also, about potshots to the audience: there is one when Rey is leaving.

Rey: "If you see Finn, tell him... tell him...
Chewie: "Arooarghwhorg"
Rey: "Yes, tell him that".

This is clearly a joke about teasing the audience, rather than a relevant event in the story. (I also think it's funnier in written form).

[Daimbert]

This retrospectively makes sense, because, later in the movie, it turns out that Luke is now a trickster (the duel, and possibly training Rey while pretending to be doing his groceries). His reaction to the lightsaber was dissimulated. And being a trickster is a quality of Jedi hermits (Ben uses the force to deceive people, he lies to Luke, and lives under a false name; Yoda is as unassuming as he can, and doesn't reveal his identity to Luke until he has tested him). The oddity with Luke is that he wants to be a trickster hermit and reject Jedity at the same time, which shows how torn he is, as when he wants to burn down the tree but can't make it, and is out-tricked by Rey (who stole the texts) and Yoda (who goes through with a fake arson and cryptically hints to Rey having stolen the texts, unfortunately in a way that sounds like "look how awesome Rey is").

This pretty much encapsulates a major problem and/or benefit of TLJ: The fact that it is so ambiguous that the viewer can pretty much decide which interpretation they prefer. Yes, there are scenes and the like that support the trickster view and that he's in some way testing Rey or trying to teach her a lesson, but unfortunately that isn't really followed through on to make it clear and so there's pretty much the same amount of support for the idea that he's a bitter curmudgeon who's doing that to, for the most part, make Rey go away. Compare this to TESB where Yoda acts like a trickster early in his scenes, but the movie both tells us explicitly that he was testing Luke -- who failed -- and shows that yes, he was just messing with Luke and isn't really like that because of his behaviour later.

You may not need to tell the audience everything, but you DO need to make it clear enough that we can see what the likely intention was. TLJ's storywriting flaw is that for any event of significance it doesn't do that, making multiple interpretations equally valid (and most of those interpretations problematic at best and bad at worst, at least in part because other scenes won't seem consistent with any interpretation you'd make, requiring rationalization to make it work).

[lord_khaine]

So your first impression was to take the movie not following your expectations as a personal attack?

Yea, not really following that line of reasoning.

No. second and third. Supported by the, you know, actual attacks the director made on the fans.
First impression were just that it was a horrible movie.
But at least its amusing watching the cringeworthy way you try to defend every horrible decision in it

[ImperiousLeader]

Whenever I read rants about The Last Jedi, I come away with the suspicion that I haven't seen the same movie, or that the ranter was watching a bad dub in Swahili without subtitles while being slapped with a wet herring, because there is such a gulf in our experiences with that movie. And it has become clear to me that there is no way to bridge that gap.

But I take issue with those that would cast aspersions on Rian Johnson's character, or apply some kind of Star Wars fandom purity test designed to dismiss him as "no true fan". Fans are allowed to express their fandom in different ways. In the Star Trek fandom, I have met fans of every Star Trek series, but just because someone prefers Voyager or Enterprise doesn't mean I get to say they are not a "true Trek fan". Disagree, sure, dismiss ... no.

It's a toxic behavior. You don't get to create a "you must fulfill these requirements to be a Star Wars Fan" bar.

[Peelee]

Whenever I read rants about The Last Jedi, I come away with the suspicion that I haven't seen the same movie, or that the ranter was watching a bad dub in Swahili without subtitles while being slapped with a wet herring, because there is such a gulf in our experiences with that movie. And it has become clear to me that there is no way to bridge that gap.

But I take issue with those that would cast aspersions on Rian Johnson's character, or apply some kind of Star Wars fandom purity test designed to dismiss him as "no true fan". Fans are allowed to express their fandom in different ways. In the Star Trek fandom, I have met fans of every Star Trek series, but just because someone prefers Voyager or Enterprise doesn't mean I get to say they are not a "true Trek fan". Disagree, sure, dismiss ... no.

It's a toxic behavior. You don't get to create a "you must fulfill these requirements to be a Star Wars Fan" bar.

I agree with 99% of this. Change "rant" to "love" and I agree with 100%.

[Bohandas]

Partway through TRoS, it finally dawned on me what was going on. Everything was taking the back seat to the Rule of Cool. The plot was put together like an Axe Cop comic, with any consistency being simply an afterthought. Effects, dialog, acting, and music were all top notch, and very enjoyable if you simply watched uncritically. Once I switched my brain off, I enjoyed the rest of the movie thoroughly.

At least it was built on the actual rule of cool rather than its drama equivalent. Last Jedi somehow managed to be excessively Soap Opera-ish even for a series built on people turning out to be each other's estranged relatives.

The fight scene in the throne room was cool though