The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

[Kitten Champion]

Knives Out was a joy to watch in theatre, and I think is still showing in a few, at least in my neighbourhood. Well constructed, a lot of moments of Fridge Brilliance, funny, and Daniel Craig was really good. Like, I didn't know I needed Daniel Craig with a Southern accent, but after Knives Out, I need more.

I'd go, but the last of my gift certificate ran out with Little Women and my entire movie theatre budget is basically that. I'll get another one near the end of the month for New Years. Well, probably. If the last few years' trend continues.

[Rakaydos]

Now that me have all got our thesises out of the way, can we hold off the rage / praise for TLJ until the reviewer gets to it? I want the reviewer to do the side films, then go in to TLJ without all his commentary being sniped first.

[Peelee]

It's not like he wrote any of them.

True, unless the director has no bearing on the quality, the point stands.

Also, Jojo Rabbit was the best movie of the year.

I think it’s safe to say that being the most divise Star Wars qualifiés it for being the most Star Wars Star Wars.

Id say the first one is the most Star Wars Star Wars. Didn't start being divisive until the prequels, after all.

[ImperiousLeader]

Id say the first one is the most Star Wars Star Wars. Didn't start being divisive until the prequels, after all.

I'll fully admit, because I'm the same age as the movie, that this is not first-hand knowledge ... but from what I've heard, Empire Strikes Back was quite divisive when it released. It's grown to it's current esteem, but at the time ... reception was mixed. I certainly remember as a kid, ESB was my least favourite.

[Peelee]

I'll fully admit, because I'm the same age as the movie, that this is not first-hand knowledge ... but from what I've heard, Empire Strikes Back was quite divisive when it released. It's grown to it's current esteem, but at the time ... reception was mixed. I certainly remember as a kid, ESB was my least favourite.

FIL saw Star Wars while in college. His recollection of ESB is that there was a huge amount of debate over whether Vader was telli f the truth or not, but not much over the quality. That's anecdotal, of course, but that's what i've heard.

[Dire_Flumph]

Didn't start being divisive until the prequels, after all.

I've been around long enough to have seen all the originals in theaters when they first came out. I've been talking Star Wars online since I found Usenet groups in 1991. While there were always those who hated Empire or Jedi (especially the Ewoks), there wasn't really any kind of major split among fans that I talked to. The biggest fights revolved around whether the Enterprise could beat a Star Destroyer or if that stupid boxy power droid was really the mastermind behind the whole trilogy (really). But I'd say where battle lines were drawn and people got nasty over the films and George Lucas in particular were the Special Editions in '97. It did get worse with the release of the Phantom Menace though which is when I departed online Star Wars groups entirely.

[Saph]

Rogue One (1/2)

Introduction

Rogue One marks the point at which we started getting Star Wars films that weren’t part of the main Star Wars saga, due to Disney wanting to squeeze every last drop of money out of the IP tell side stories in the wider Star Wars universe.

I’ve seen this one before, and remember it being decent but unspectacular. Let’s see how it holds up on a rewatch.


Thoughts While Watching

• No STAR WARS opening crawl this time. The opening shots feel different somehow – slightly more hard SF.
• The opening scene is a lot grimmer than any previous Star Wars episode too, setting the tone for the movie. Instead of being near-invincible heroes, the protagonists are just civilians, and stormtroopers are actually threatening.
• Male Lead spy guy shoots two stormtroopers . . . and then his informant, too. Yeah, this is MUCH darker than previous Star Wars movies.
• ”Congratulations. You are being rescued. Please do not resist.”
• The Rebel military feels a lot more like a military in this one.
• So the female lead’s Jyn, and the male lead’s Cassian. I’d forgotten their names.
• Another big difference from other Star Wars movies – the Saw guy that the Rebels want to find is described as an ‘extremist’. The idea that it’s even possible to be too anti-Imperial is a pretty new one.
• Mon Mothma actually looks pretty convincing.
• The droid - K2SO? - is kind of funny.
• And Cassian gets ordered to kill Jyn’s father if he gets the chance. It kind of is the decision you’d expect them to make.
• They went to some effort to make the aesthetics fit in with A New Hope. The starships look dirty and battered, and would slot in seamlessly in Mos Eisley. Complete opposite to the shiny Naboo ships from the prequels.
• Saw is pretty psycho-looking, and sounds like Darth Vader.
• Why do the Star Destroyers in this movie look so much better than the ones in Episode VII? Maybe they used models instead of CGI?
• Man, the Tarkin actor is REALLY good. He’s more scary with one scene than the whole First Order managed to be in an entire movie.
• Cassian and Jyn get caught in a shootout.
• And get captured. Luckily the blind monk’s there to save them, in a scene that looks cool but is slightly silly (shouldn’t that armour protect the stormtroopers from being hit with a stick?)
• Saw’s actor does a really good job. Jyn’s . . . not so much.
• Death Star fires. K2: “There’s a problem on the horizon . . . There’s no horizon.”
• I remembered the Death Star blast’s slow-motion explosion to be silly, but on a rewatch, it does do a good job of showing the sheer scale of it. The blast is so big that the shockwave takes minutes to finish expanding. No idea if the science makes any sense, but it does look good.
• On to the refinery planet, Eadu.
• The actor for Cassian is good as well. He’s very obviously conflicted and it’s making him snappish. Meanwhile, X-wings sortie.
• Evil Director tells the technicians that one of them’s betrayed the Empire and tells them to step forward, with a fairly clear implied ‘or else’. Cassian gets Jyn’s father in his sights.
• And Cassian doesn’t shoot. The stormtroopers do, though.
• The X-wings arrive and a full-scale battle breaks out. The blind monk guy pulls off a really ridiculous shot.
• Evil Director leaves, Jyn’s father dies in her arms, and the protagonist group all escape.

First Half Thoughts

Pretty good so far! I’m having more fun than I did with Episode I, and way more fun than with Episode VII.

I’d forgotten how much grimmer and more morally ambiguous Rogue One is from the standard Star Wars movie. Jyn’s father is marked for death, not by the Imperials, but by the Rebels. . . and then he’s finally killed by a Rebellion airstrike, more or less by accident. Most Star Wars films are the good protagonists vs the evil Empire, but in Rogue One the biggest danger seems to be getting caught in the crossfire and becoming collateral damage without either side really noticing. Which is fairly realistic for a war.

[Rakaydos]

The non-saga Disney stuff is actually pretty good. Rogue 1, Solo, Rebels, Mandalorian, all have a decent (though not spectacular) level of quality.

[Peelee]

Thoughts While Watching

• Mon Mothma actually looks pretty convincing.

That's actually the original actress's daughter!

Also, I think Rogue One is the best of the Disney movies, but I do wish they'd toned down Chirrut's abilities. Shooting a TIE while blind and supposedly without Force abilities is a bit much.

[Saph]

That's actually the original actress's daughter!

Really? Hah, that's pretty cool.

Also, I think Rogue One is the best of the Disney movies, but I do wish they'd toned down Chirrut's abilities. Shooting a TIE while blind and supposedly without Force abilities is a bit much.

Not only does he shoot it down, he manages to shoot it down at so perfect an angle that it crashes into (and blows up) the Imperial AA gun that's shooting down X-wings!

He blatantly does have Force abilities, though, surely? I mean, the stuff he pulls is flat-out superhuman. I just assumed he was some kind of Force adept from one of the non-Jedi Force traditions, or a self-taught Force user if not.

[Peelee]

Really? Hah, that's pretty cool.



Not only does he shoot it down, he manages to shoot it down at so perfect an angle that it crashes into (and blows up) the Imperial AA gun that's shooting down X-wings!

He blatantly does have Force abilities, though, surely? I mean, the stuff he pulls is flat-out superhuman. I just assumed he was some kind of Force adept from one of the non-Jedi Force traditions, or a self-taught Force user if not.

From starwars.com:

CHIRRUT ÎMWE
Deeply spiritual, Chirrut Îmwe believes all living things are connected through the Force. His sightless eyes do not prevent him from being a highly skilled warrior. Though he lacks Force abilities, this warrior monk has rigorously honed his body through intense physical and mental discipline.

And yeah, you're preaching to the choir if you think that's just silly.

Spoiler: Rogue One ending

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I also think it detracts from his death scene, which is actually my main objection.

[DataNinja]

I seem to recall reading that the superlaser horizon explosion is actually what would happen if a sufficiently large object impacted - or, I guess, in this case, a sufficiently large amount of energy was directly transferred.

Edit: Also, yeah, what was conveyed in movie was pretty much "he's force-sensitive, but he's not a Jedi. He's what someone like Anakin could be without Jedi training." He sensed Jyn's Khyber crystal. He's obviously in tune with the will of the force. It guides him to where he needs to be... he just can't actively use it. Like... it seems pretty stupid to say that he's not sensitive to the force in some way... (And I have heard conflicting things from different sources saying the producers said this or that or the other thing.)

[Dire_Flumph]

Also, I think Rogue One is the best of the Disney movies, but I do wish they'd toned down Chirrut's abilities. Shooting a TIE while blind and supposedly without Force abilities is a bit much.

I'll leave a dissenting opinion here, for all the talk of Force Dynasties and whether Rey is "no one" or not, this is where the movies nailed that the force is present in everyone. I take Chirrut as an example of someone who didn't win the midichlorian jackpot on birth, but who has trained his whole life to hone what sensitivity he had and what everyone on some level would be capable of. I think this is the best example in the movies that the Force belongs to all life, not just the few who were born lucky. Chirrut is nowhere near Jedi levels of ability, but more of an analog to Hawkeye from the Marvel films.

[Peelee]

I'll leave a dissenting opinion here, for all the talk of Force Dynasties and whether Rey is "no one" or not, this is where the movies nailed that the force is present in everyone. I take Chirrut as an example of someone who didn't win the midichlorian jackpot on birth, but who has trained his whole life to hone what sensitivity he had and what everyone on some level would be capable of. I think this is the best example in the movies that the Force belongs to all life, not just the few who were born lucky. Chirrut is nowhere near Jedi levels of ability, but more of an analog to Hawkeye from the Marvel films.

Hawkeye is ridiculous, though, is what I'm saying.

...I think. Didn't really watch those movies, but that's the impression I get.

[Fyraltari]

Chirrut (and Baze) belong to the Guardian of the Whills

Hawkeye is ridiculous, though, is what I'm saying.

...I think. Didn't really watch those movies, but that's the impression I get.

The city is flying and we're fighting an army of robots. And I have a bow and arrows. None of this makes sense.

[Peelee]

Chirrut (and Baze) belong to the Guardian of the Whills

Yes. And...?

[super dark33]

People can make hyperprecise shots in media, "the blind sniper" is a well worn trope but doesnt do too much damage to the suspension pf disbelief imo.

[Peelee]

People can make hyperprecise shots in media,

And I can complain about it when it's poorly done. Like taking out a fighter, which crashes into an anti-air cannon, with a hand weapon.

"the blind sniper" is a well worn trope but doesnt do too much damage to the suspension pf disbelief imo.

What other "blind sniper"s are there?

[Fyraltari]

Yes. And...?

Well he's not a random nobody he is a monk whose order has a connection with the Jedi.

[Peelee]

Well he's not a random nobody he is a monk whose order has a connection with the Jedi.

I don't believe I, or anyone else so far in this thread, has suggested he was a random nobody, though. Heck, even my main objection is

Spoiler: Rogue One ending

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that him showing such abilities earlier detract from his death scene. The foreshadowing is there, entire time he is praying, invoking the Force, despite Baze's hand-waving, and even says something to the effect of "he is afraid because he knows it will work." The force of his belief gives his death scene the impact it has where he can walk through the battle unscathed until he can achieve his goal, and instead of seeing that pay off constantly and just seeing more of the same, in a sense, if they had not done those abilities earlier it would make that scene a much bigger payoff. Saving it all and cashing out at once instead of spreading the payments out over the movie, in a sense.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and even then it's not a terribly big deal. But it is something I would have changed had I been in charge.

[tiornys]

I don't believe I, or anyone else so far in this thread, has suggested he was a random nobody, though. Heck, even my main objection is

Spoiler: Rogue One ending

Show

that him showing such abilities earlier detract from his death scene. The foreshadowing is there, entire time he is praying, invoking the Force, despite Baze's hand-waving, and even says something to the effect of "he is afraid because he knows it will work." The force of his belief gives his death scene the impact it has where he can walk through the battle unscathed until he can achieve his goal, and instead of seeing that pay off constantly and just seeing more of the same, in a sense, if they had not done those abilities earlier it would make that scene a much bigger payoff. Saving it all and cashing out at once instead of spreading the payments out over the movie, in a sense.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and even then it's not a terribly big deal. But it is something I would have changed had I been in charge.

Spoiler

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I see your point, but I would worry that without the earlier demonstrations his final walk would seem too much like a deus ex machina.

[Rakaydos]

Spoiler

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I see your point, but I would worry that without the earlier demonstrations his final walk would seem too much like a deus ex machina.

Spoiler

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What if there was a line of dialogue to the effect of, "If I walk out there, I will die. The force has shown me this." and some psyching himself up, bofore a final "all is as the force wills it," and a more serene walk out, hit the button, and death scene?

Change the death scene from "I don't know if this will work," into "This is my death, and also my destiny. So be it."

[Fyraltari]

I don't believe I, or anyone else so far in this thread, has suggested he was a random nobody, though.

Right, I think I got confused with another conversation.

Heck, even my main objection is

Spoiler: Rogue One ending

Show

that him showing such abilities earlier detract from his death scene. The foreshadowing is there, entire time he is praying, invoking the Force, despite Baze's hand-waving, and even says something to the effect of "he is afraid because he knows it will work." The force of his belief gives his death scene the impact it has where he can walk through the battle unscathed until he can achieve his goal, and instead of seeing that pay off constantly and just seeing more of the same, in a sense, if they had not done those abilities earlier it would make that scene a much bigger payoff. Saving it all and cashing out at once instead of spreading the payments out over the movie, in a sense.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and even then it's not a terribly big deal. But it is something I would have changed had I been in charge.

Agreed

Spoiler

Show

I see your point, but I would worry that without the earlier demonstrations his final walk would seem too much like a deus ex machina.

You'd need Rogue One to be your very first Star Wars movie to not know that the Force is very real in-universe.

[super dark33]

And I can complain about it when it's poorly done. Like taking out a fighter, which crashes into an anti-air cannon, with a hand weapon.

What other "blind sniper"s are there?

Youre deffo free to complain, but i must warn you, it is the sport of my people so youll be eaten alive
Im not here to argue about why your suspension pf disbelief shouldve remained, and you pretty much wont be able to dissuade mine from falling down.
(Unrelated, but as a second-language english speaker, i always thought suspension of disbelief meant suspending like hanging and not suspending like keeping away. Makes for fun imagery)

Off the top of my head, another example of a blind master sharpshooter is flthe character Hawkeye Gough from the videosgame series Dark Souls, who fires blind at a target.
Its a cool trope!

[Saph]

Rogue One (2/2)

Thoughts While Watching

• Confrontation between Cassian and Jyn. Again, Cassian’s actor sells it a lot better.
• Shuttle landing at what looks like Sauron’s tower from Mordor. I don’t remember this scene.
• Oh right, Vader. He makes a REALLY impressive appearance.
• Jyn gives a speech at the Rebel base. Honestly, Mon Mothma really should be the one doing this, not her, and the ‘hope’ line is kind of cringy.
• And the team sets off, the pilot ad-libbing the name ‘Rogue One’. Kind of funny.
• Final location for the film is Scarif. Jyn, Cassian, and K2 go after the plans, while the blind monk, the pilot, and Heavy Weapons Guy stay around the ship on diversion duty.
• The diversion team start a fight, the fight is reported on Imperial channels to Tarkin, the Rebels pick it up, and the Rebel admiral decides (apparently on his own initiative) to fight. The Rebels come across as having a pretty chaotic command structure in this film – no-one seems to be clearly in charge. Very far cry from how they act in Episodes IV through VI.
• The diversion team are doing very well until the AT-ATs show up.
• And above, the Rebel Fleet arrives. Oh, you get to see Gold Leader and Red Leader from Episode IV. That’s kind of cool.
• The space battle is pretty impressive. Down on the ground, it turns out X-wings beat AT-ATs.
• The shield gate launches more TIE fighters in one wave than Starkiller Base had in its entire defence fleet.
• We also see the previous Red Five. For about ten seconds.
• K2 is the first of the team to die, shot to pieces against overwhelming odds while Jyn and Cassian locate the plans.
• The black stormtroopers join the battle and are a lot more dangerous than the white ones. A bunch of Rebels are killed trying to get to the communications switch. The blind monk is the last to try, and makes it . . . just before being killed as well.
• Pilot establishes comms just before being blown up by a grenade. The heavy weapons guy follows shortly after. The only named members of the team left now are Jyn and Cassian.
• The scene on the communications dish reminds me of Goldeneye.
• The director gets shot, the shield disc is destroyed, and everything seems to be going well for the good guys . . .
• . . . until the Imperial Navy shows up. Jyn and Cassian get a last scene in front of an expanding nuclear fireball.
• Vader kills his way through a corridor of Rebel soldiers, but the Tantive IV gets away.
• . . . And into the classic Star Wars end theme.

Overall Thoughts

Pretty good! After Episode VII, I really needed something to lift my spirits, and this delivered.

Rogue One feels kind of like an experiment – as if someone was saying “can we do a Star Wars story, but make it a gritty last-stand war movie instead?” Turns out the answer is yes. The Star Wars setting works just fine for a war movie, and the ground combat scenes and space battles are both nicely done.

The cameos and callbacks to the Original Trilogy are fairly smooth, so that they feel more like fun touches where you go “Oh hey, it’s Red Leader”. It helps that pretty much all of the cameos are in places where it makes sense for the character to be there.

The one area where the movie falls down a bit is the characters, especially the main character. As the primary protagonist, Jyn has a lot of weight put on her to carry the story, and IMO she doesn’t quite pull it off. She gets a lot of scenes and a lot of background, but she somehow falls a bit flat. It doesn’t help that the writers try to push her into a leadership role that she doesn’t really fit into (kind of like Mystique in those new X-men movies). The supporting cast are good – Cassian, Blind Wuxia Master, and the droid are standouts – but they don’t get much time on their own.

Final Grade

B. Solid movie, better than I remembered. Worth the rewatch.

Next up, The Last Jedi.

[super dark33]

Ohoho, now to see if my opinion is agreed with or i should start flinging Objects at your direction

[Peelee]

Youre deffo free to complain, but i must warn you, it is the sport of my people so youll be eaten alive

I accept my fate.

Its a cool trope!

Ehhhhhhhhhh...

• The diversion team are doing very well until the AT-ATs show up.

AT-ACTs, not AT-ATs. They got new toys to sell!

Next up, The Last Jedi.

Woohoo! Pretty excited for this one. Ah, what am I saying, I've been excited about 'em all.

[hamishspence]

That's actually the original actress's daughter!

Are you sure? Wouldn't Wookieepedia have said so if she was?


https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Caroline_Blakiston

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Genevieve_O'Reilly

Cast for her strong resemblance to Blakiston, she carefully studied the British actress' performance in order to capture the character's voice and mannerisms.

[Peelee]

Are you sure?

Apparently not. Could have sworn I read that somewhere, but it was apparently in the same section as quoted from Abraham Lincoln about the nature of the internet.

[Dire_Flumph]

What other "blind sniper"s are there?

Montolio from the Drizzt books, Hawkeye Gough from Dark Souls. I'd probably count Matt Murdock from Marvel and Toph from Avatar, but that's stretching the term "sniper" a bit.

But if you mean Star Wars specifically, there are the Miralukans. SFDebris played through the Imperial Agent storyline of Star Wars: The Old Republic as a Miralukan Sniper. https://sfdebris.com/videos/games/swtoragent.php