The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

[Narkis]

Fair. In that case, the first lines of the opening crawl of The Last Jedi states that Hux was 100% correct, so I still find that comment more than a little confusing.

Yes, but the discussion was whether TFA, by itself, portrayed the destruction of the Republc from Starkiller's single shot as certain and inevitable. And my point is exactly that before this line in the crawl there was nothing making it so. TLJ was free to have the Republic rally and counterattack instead of crumbling off-screen. That decision was entirely in Rian Johnson's hand.

[Rakaydos]

Yes, but the discussion was whether TFA, by itself, portrayed the destruction of the Republc from Starkiller's single shot as certain and inevitable. And my point is exactly that before this line in the crawl there was nothing making it so. TLJ was free to have the Republic rally and counterattack instead of crumbling off-screen. That decision was entirely in Rian Johnson's hand.

Saying that TLJ didn't retcon TFA hard enough shouldn't be a mark against TLJ. It should be a mark against TFA in the first place.

Admitedly, TLJ has a lot of these, where Rian says "Wait a moment, THAT'S been established? Ok then, here we go..."

[Peelee]

Yes, but the discussion was whether TFA, by itself, portrayed the destruction of the Republc from Starkiller's single shot as certain and inevitable. And my point is exactly that before this line in the crawl there was nothing making it so. TLJ was free to have the Republic rally and counterattack instead of crumbling off-screen. That decision was entirely in Rian Johnson's hand.

OK, I getcha. In which case, we have no reason to believe Hux is not a reliable source of information other than you saying so, so I still find that comment more than a little confusing.

[Mechalich]

The big limiting factor on the Rebel Fleet is that they’re ‘running out of fuel’, which comes out of nowhere and has literally never been a problem for any Star Wars ship before.The big limiting factor on the Rebel Fleet is that they’re ‘running out of fuel’, which comes out of nowhere and has literally never been a problem for any Star Wars ship before.

To be fair to TLJ, fuel was mentioned prior to this film both in TCW (briefly) and in Rebels (substantially). However, the plotline in Rebels makes it clear that a fully fueled vessel can operate for quite some time before experiencing supply problems, and the rebel fleet only has a fuel crisis because they've lost all safe ports and are constantly running through hyperspace to evade imperial pursuit. The Resistance fleet in TLJ has just launched from their base and ought to be fully fueled. It should be able to crisscross the galaxy several times over before fuel supply becomes a problem.

[Saph]

To be fair to TLJ, fuel was mentioned prior to this film both in TCW (briefly) and in Rebels (substantially). However, the plotline in Rebels makes it clear that a fully fueled vessel can operate for quite some time before experiencing supply problems, and the rebel fleet only has a fuel crisis because they've lost all safe ports and are constantly running through hyperspace to evade imperial pursuit. The Resistance fleet in TLJ has just launched from their base and ought to be fully fueled. It should be able to crisscross the galaxy several times over before fuel supply becomes a problem.

Yeah, in the larger scale of things, the fuel really isn't a big deal. It's stupid, but if it was there on its own my reaction would have been to crack a couple of jokes and move on. The real problem is the abundance of much, much more stupid things that combine to make the whole space battle at the beginning of the movie a joke.

[Narkis]

Saying that TLJ didn't retcon TFA hard enough shouldn't be a mark against TLJ. It should be a mark against TFA in the first place.

Admitedly, TLJ has a lot of these, where Rian says "Wait a moment, THAT'S been established? Ok then, here we go..."

Would it be a retcon though? TFA was vague enough about everything that just about anything could follow. From "The First Order reigns" to "war rages on" or even "The First Order has collapsed after the destruction of their weapon". TFA was a bad movie for sure, but its badness could be harnessed for good in someone else's hands.

OK, I getcha. In which case, we have no reason to believe Hux is not a reliable source of information other than you saying so, so I still find that comment more than a little confusing.

Well, ranting and raving as he did are generally not the mark of someone reliable. Tarkin once said "fear will keep the systems in line. Fear of this battlestation." and he turned out to be wrong. There was no reason to expect Hux to be right in a situation so similar.

[Daimbert]

Well, ranting and raving as he did are generally not the mark of someone reliable. Tarkin once said "fear will keep the systems in line. Fear of this battlestation." and he turned out to be wrong. There was no reason to expect Hux to be right in a situation so similar.

And given that history it's a more reasonable conclusion that he meant that the Republic wouldn't move against them after their demonstration because they would be too afraid of the base as opposed to that he meant that they'd wiped them all out.

[Peelee]

Well, ranting and raving as he did are generally not the mark of someone reliable. Tarkin once said "fear will keep the systems in line. Fear of this battlestation." and he turned out to be wrong. There was no reason to expect Hux to be right in a situation so similar.

Tarkin's statement was an opinion. Hux says "we will destroy the Republic and wipe out their fleet." We then see a character say "they wiped out the Republic." We see a fleet get destroyed.

Seems like there's plenty of reason to expect Hux to be right.

[Saph]

The Last Jedi (2/3)

Thoughts While Watching

• Deep breath, here we go.
• Rey’s led through a pretty temple. She repeats her request to Luke. He acts like a **** for no good reason.
• Rey continues her habit of perfectly succeeding on everything on the second try. And causes a minor earthquake or something. Star Wars has drifted a long way from Yoda emphasising control and restraint.
• The world’s slowest starship chase continues. Oh, and they have their lasers arc like they’re frigging catapult stones in a gravity well. FFS. Finn and annoying girl go off in hyperspace.
• Rey asks Chewie if he can ‘get through to the Resistance’. This whole galaxy feels about the scale of a medium-size US state.
• Kylo’s actor looks kind of like a younger Keanu Reeves.
• Finn and Rose reach the casino. Wait. Why are we having an interlude in a casino?
• Apparently this is the time for Finn to talk about how great and beautiful the casino is and ask why Rose hates it. And for Rose to tell a deeply meaningful story about something or other about how evil the First Order are.
• ”There’s only one business in the galaxy that’ll get you this rich.” “War.” Ah, right. Just what the film needed, some inaccurate political preaching. I guess this is why the critics liked it so much.
• ”Red plom bloom!” “The Master Codebreaker!” Then Finn and Rose get arrested for parking violations. This is SO BAD. It’s like they’re trying to make this impossible to take seriously, while still wanting us to take this seriously.
• Daisy Ridley does some stunts, with her back turned for the athletic parts so that we can’t see the stunt double’s face. This is why the Matrix trained their actors.
• Some random aliens get their wheelbarrow crushed.
• ”The legacy of the Jedi is failure”. Well, yeah, Rian, it is, because you and JJ Abrams made it that way.
• Luke tells the story of Kylo destroying the Jedi temple, and how he failed. So, this sort of thing happened in the EU. Thing is, when it happened in the EU, Luke got back on the horse. He didn’t run and hide.
• Oh no, the dreaded out of gas event causes the Medical Frigate to blow up. Holdo’s response is to keep flying in a straight line.
• Finn and Rose are in prison and need a thief. Oh, hey, there’s one in their cell. He explains he can do everything and break them into Snoke’s ship. And lets them out. Oh, and BB-8 duct tapes all the guards. Sure, you know what, this isn’t even the most annoying part of this film, so I’m not going to say anything.
• They find some virtuous exploited alien horse things that Rose frees and there are some children who are supposed to be exploited as well. Or something. It’s hard to care very much.
• Now they have a stampede/horse race, because . . . something. I’m guessing this is supposed to represent the triumph of the oppressed vs the evil rich people or something.
• Ship gets blown up which means we aren’t allowed to move on with the plot yet.
• ”It was worth it though.” NO IT WASN’T! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SAVING THE RESISTANCE! JESUS! Even the CHARACTERS can’t remember what they’re supposed to be doing in this meandering plot.
• Rey and Kylo keep doing their largely pointless mutual viewing. Oh wait, no, there is a point, it's so we get to see Kylo's pecs in his mandatory shirtless scene.
• So apparently Luke tried to kill Kylo in his sleep.
• ”Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.” Well, Rian Johnson’s certainly trying his best.
• Rey falls into the dark side cave. There’s some CGI scene with lots of Reys that presumably is supposed to represent something.
• We don’t get to see Rey’s parents. By the way, why is Rey narrating this in flashback?
• Oh, right, Kylo. Weird edgy romance continues.
• Rey hits Luke. Sure, why not, might as well strip every last bit of dignity from the character.
• So Luke, the great believer in redemption, who was able to turn his father back from the dark side, has now completely given up on everything he once believed in. He decides to burn the temple and the texts. I hate this movie and I hate the writers who decided to make the characters do this.
• Ghost Yoda shows up and blows it all up with lightning and laughs.
• ”Page-turners they were not.” Because that’s what deeply meaningful religious and spiritual texts are supposed to be. Page-turners. Screw you guys. Seriously. You don’t deserve to be put in charge of Star Wars.
• John Williams’s beautiful score is such a tragic contrast to the horrible dialogue between Yoda and Luke.
• Finn’s white knight tendencies are getting annoying. He spends the first half of the movie going on about how “we gotta find Rey!” and now he’s demanding that criminal guy gives Rose her medallion back because “you have no idea what it means to her!”
• It’s explained to Finn that arms dealers also supply the Resistance. I don’t understand why this ‘arms dealing is bad’ subplot is in the movie. The Resistance is in a war. To fight a war you need weapons. Is this a difficult concept for Hollywood to get or something?
• Another nameless support ship gets picked off. Poe goes onto the bridge and asks Holdo to give him something, anything. She of course tells him nothing.
• After all the talk about it being impossible to get onto Snoke’s ship without the codes, Rey just knocks on the front door and they let her in.
• Finn and Rose’s stupid plan actually gets them onto the ship. Purple Hair continues to be annoying, Poe finally snaps and mutinies.
• Rey decides to do a Luke Skywalker/Vader maneuver and try to turn Kylo. Presumably it’ll work, but we’re only at 1 hour 30 minutes so it won't trigger for another 40 minutes or so.
• Holdo mutinies against the mutiny. This is almost reminding me of Wheel of Time with the total inability of the ‘good guys’ to communicate with one another. Except Wheel of Time had likeable protagonists.
• I’ve actually lost track of what it was Finn and Rose were supposed to be doing on Snoke's ship. Blowing up the hyperspace tracker or something? Well, whatever, they get captured and Leia shoots Poe.
• Some scene between annoying purple hair woman and Leia. Apparently we’re supposed to care about Purple Hair.
• And apparently everyone has cloaking devices now.
• Snoke gives some speech or other and says that he was the one who created the link between Rey and Kylo.
• So the plan is that the (highly visible) transports are going to go down to the planet Crait because the First Order was only tracking the big ship and “isn’t monitoring for little transports”. Poe breathlessly announces to the audience that “that could work”. We’re told that this whole situation happened because Holdo was concerned with “protecting the light” while Poe only cared about “seeming like a hero”. And this is apparently the big moral lesson we’re supposed to take away from this. Screw these guys. Seriously.

Second Part Thoughts

I hate this movie and everyone who took part in writing it.

[Daimbert]

Tarkin's statement was an opinion. Hux says "we will destroy the Republic and wipe out their fleet." We then see a character say "they wiped out the Republic." We see a fleet get destroyed.

Seems like there's plenty of reason to expect Hux to be right.

Hux's speech is also a propaganda/morale-building speech, where claims can be overblown, and my understanding of watching TFA and comments on it afterwards is that you only really see the fleet being destroyed if you look very closely, and the movie is also not clear that the fleet there is the only one the Republic has.

[Peelee]

Hux's speech is also a propaganda/morale-building speech, where claims can be overblown, and my understanding of watching TFA and comments on it afterwards is that you only really see the fleet being destroyed if you look very closely, and the movie is also not clear that the fleet there is the only one the Republic has.

Unless we're given any reason to doubt what a character is saying, we should assume they know what they are talking about, is the thing. For example, Leia immediately refute's Tarkin's claim, and it's clear they are both espousing their own beliefs. Hux is stating facts (albeit with some editorializing thrown in, but still). He says they are going to destroy things, and the First Order immediately destroys things. We are given no reason to assume it's not the things Hux was talking about.

I hate this movie and everyone who took part in writing it.

Oh, you just say that because you have yet to meet our favorite sergeant, Salty.

[Sapphire Guard]

If you don't destroy the republic fleet, then you're stuck with explaining why it doesn't turn up out for blood and crush the FO in TLJ. To maintain the stakes, the fleet has to vanish.

[Narkis]

And given that history it's a more reasonable conclusion that he meant that the Republic wouldn't move against them after their demonstration because they would be too afraid of the base as opposed to that he meant that they'd wiped them all out.

Yeah, that would be reasonable. And the destruction of Starkiller would allow the Republic to strike back without fear of the weapon.

Tarkin's statement was an opinion. Hux says "we will destroy the Republic and wipe out their fleet." We then see a character say "they wiped out the Republic." We see a fleet get destroyed.

Seems like there's plenty of reason to expect Hux to be right.

You really see Hux, a deranged zealot ranting in front of his troops, and Finn, a brainwashed grunt who spent the entire movie in fear of the First Order, as reliable authorities on the matter? More than Tarkin, in fact? Did Leia or Poe, who actually had insight into the workings of the Republic agree that Starkiller's shot had destroyed everything?

I also don't remember seeing a fleet get destroyed. Just five planets. And in any case, it is absurd to think the Republic only had one fleet in the entire galaxy.

I hate this movie and I hate the writers who decided to make the characters do this.

Screw you guys. Seriously. You don’t deserve to be put in charge of Star Wars.

Screw these guys. Seriously.

I hate this movie and everyone who took part in writing it.

Yeees. Let the hate flow through you. Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen. Join us, and together we shall rule the internet bitch about a terrible movie and reminisce about what could have been.

[Daimbert]

Unless we're given any reason to doubt what a character is saying, we should assume they know what they are talking about, is the thing.

But we do have a reason: it's ridiculous to think that destroying one system will LITERALLY destroy the entire government and the entire fleet, and unless the Republic was only in that system it also clearly didn't literally destroy the Republic. So we would reasonably assume that he means destroying it as an effective opponent, and there's also no reason to think from his speech that the first shot is the one that will do that rather than repeated shots -- which they were clearly planning for -- which is more reasonable. So the context and common sense works against it being taken as literal, which is why it suddenly being the case in TLJ is jarring.

If you don't destroy the republic fleet, then you're stuck with explaining why it doesn't turn up out for blood and crush the FO in TLJ. To maintain the stakes, the fleet has to vanish.

Reduce the excessively large fleet chasing the Resistance and simply say that the Republic leadership is either gone or in chaos and that's only being furthered by other FO ships making attacks. In fact, this could work well with the battle at the beginning, as they brought one of the big ones and had to divert another one when the initial raid succeeded in destroying their initial one, which then can be used either later or in supplementary material as a reason why the FO's blitzkrieg isn't as successful as they hoped.

[Peelee]

You really see Hux, a deranged zealot ranting in front of his troops, and Finn, a brainwashed grunt who spent the entire movie in fear of the First Order, as reliable authorities on the matter?

Yes. And again, given that all other sources backed it up, seeing them as reliable authorities while watching the first movie is ratified as being the correct way to see them.

Also, Finn seems remarkably un-brainwashed for a "brainwashed grunt," I have to say.

[Mechalich]

Daisy Ridley does some stunts, with her back turned for the athletic parts so that we can’t see the stunt double’s face. This is why the Matrix trained their actors.

Star Wars at least used to train theirs, as awkward as it was to fight with the rod-things they use for rotoscoping to do lightsabers. Luke got progressively better using a lightsaber throughout the OT in part because Mark Hamill got better at fighting with those things, and while the prequel-fights involve a few too many dance moves, actors like Sam Jackson did train and master the choreography.

I suspect it's partly that Disney didn't secure sufficient time commitments from the actors for these roles to accommodate training. Adam Driver (Kylo) and Oscar Isaac (Poe) both managed to make a huge number of other movies while starring in this trilogy, but the results are indeed embarrassing. I mean Driver's stunts hacking off zombie heads with a machete in The Dead Don't Die (which is a farcical spoof) look better than any of his lightsaber work in the ST.

[Daimbert]

Yes. And again, given that all other sources backed it up, seeing them as reliable authorities while watching the first movie is ratified as being the correct way to see them.

Let's cut to the heart of the discussion though. The comment is that it's a surprise at the beginning of TLJ to see that the FO is completely in charge (and they actually aren't, but let's put that aside for a bit). The counter is that TFA set that up and so TLJ is just echoing what TFA said. But the counter to that is that even if TFA intended that it didn't actually set that up that clearly. Yes, Hux ended up being right, but it's not obvious that he's both reliable and means that literally, and so in TFA, in isolation, the interpretation that it's more how devastating it is and how no one will dare challenge them for fear of being next -- especially since that aligns with the Death Star -- than an actual literal destruction is the more reasonable one. Which then leads to the surprise when, with no further explanation, TLJ simply states it as a fait accompli.

You can decide which movie to blame for that, but the reaction is reasonable and common (it was mine as well, although in my case it's what made me think that there had been a time skip that there hadn't been).

[Peelee]

Let's cut to the heart of the discussion though. The comment is that it's a surprise at the beginning of TLJ

Nuh uh uh, no changing the rules.

Yes, but the discussion was whether TFA, by itself, portrayed the destruction of the Republc from Starkiller's single shot as certain and inevitable.

We're going by TFA alone. If you want to expand it further, then I can bring in ancillary materials.

[Daimbert]

Nuh uh uh, no changing the rules.

We're going by TFA alone. If you want to expand it further, then I can bring in ancillary materials.

And the answer to that is definitely that it didn't, which explains Saph's reaction to the opening crawl of TLJ, which is what we're talking about. The question is if from TFA alone we should have seen that the Republic and their fleet was definitively destroyed so that we shouldn't find the opening crawl confusing. So it's fair to refer back to the reaction that spawned the debate in the first place to talk about whether TFA alone set that up properly.

Oh, and as for changing the rules [grin]:

Yes. And again, given that all other sources backed it up, seeing them as reliable authorities while watching the first movie is ratified as being the correct way to see them.

Using the point -- and a repeated one -- that other sources in TLJ backed Hux and Finn up as evidence that they should be seen as reliable sources in TFA is clearly bringing in other sources, far more so than my use of the opening crawl of TLJ.

[Forum Explorer]

Ahaha, yeah, I remember the whole space physics being hilariously stupid in the movie as well. But that's actually kinda been a thing for a bunch of Star Wars, so I've long since stopped caring about that.

The parking violation thing is the dumbest thing in the movie, IMO. I mean, I enjoyed it in the sense that it looked like the world reacting to people who were acting like they were the protagonists of a movie, but it was very very dumb.

[Peelee]

Oh, and as for changing the rules [grin]:

Using the point -- and a repeated one -- that other sources in TLJ backed Hux and Finn up as evidence that they should be seen as reliable sources in TFA is clearly bringing in other sources, far more so than my use of the opening crawl of TLJ.

I said that I believed Hux was correct with only TFA as the source material. Someone was incredulous about that. I pointed out that, after the fact, my viewing Hux as being correct was indeed how that was supposed to be interpreted. It does not change that I still thought Hux was correct while watching the movie with no other references.

[dancrilis]

It is not merely Hux and Finn that give indications, C-3P0 also mentions that 'Without the Republic fleet, we're doomed' later in the movie - and (to reference him again) Hux mentions earlier in the movie to sell the idea to Snoke 'We shall destroy the government that supports the Resistance, the Republic.'

Effectively lets say that (insert your own capital city here) was destroyed in a nuke attack taking out the government and the infrastructure around it would your nation a) immediately rally or b) split into different regional governments.

My personal opinion is that the larger a nation is the more likely it will split into different governments rather then rally - I could be wrong.

Ignoring the quality of the movies themselves I think it was a bad idea to reform the Republic so quickly after the Empire fall anyway - things like that should take some time (could have been its own trilogy).

[Sapphire Guard]

Reduce the excessively large fleet chasing the Resistance and simply say that the Republic leadership is either gone or in chaos and that's only being furthered by other FO ships making attacks. In fact, this could work well with the battle at the beginning, as they brought one of the big ones and had to divert another one when the initial raid succeeded in destroying their initial one, which then can be used either later or in supplementary material as a reason why the FO's blitzkrieg isn't as successful as they hoped.

At that point, though, 400 rebels in three ships are basically irrelevant to the larger conflict. Hux, Snoke, Phasma and Kylo have way more important things to do than chase down the resistance.

[dancrilis]

At that point, though, 400 rebels in three ships are basically irrelevant to the larger conflict. Hux, Snoke, Phasma and Kylo have way more important things to do than chase down the resistance.

On the other hand Hux, Snoke, Phasma and Kylo are not exactly geniuses - they might have chased down a super bouncy ball with a tracker on it.

[Daimbert]

I said that I believed Hux was correct with only TFA as the source material. Someone was incredulous about that. I pointed out that, after the fact, my viewing Hux as being correct was indeed how that was supposed to be interpreted. It does not change that I still thought Hux was correct while watching the movie with no other references.

Remember, Narkis' main point was that Johnson COULD have not followed that impression if he had wanted to because how specifically that was supposed to be interpreted was wide open. So while I and Narkis can use it for our main points -- that it was at a minimum a bit surprising -- you can't because what you have to be arguing against to argue against Narkis -- who, remember, is the one you were replying to -- is that given TFA Johnson could NOT have sensibly changed that line.

At this point, you can say that that was how you took it, which is fair but not really relevant to the discussion's starting points.

EDITING in new comments:

Effectively lets say that (insert your own capital city here) was destroyed in a nuke attack taking out the government and the infrastructure around it would your nation a) immediately rally or b) split into different regional governments.

It's perfectly fine for it to be in chaos and vulnerable to invasion, attack and collapse. It's not that reasonable for it to be completely taken over as "The First Order reigns" implies.

At that point, though, 400 rebels in three ships are basically irrelevant to the larger conflict. Hux, Snoke, Phasma and Kylo have way more important things to do than chase down the resistance.

The Resistance is something that they paid a lot of attention to and did destroy Starkiller base. It's not unreasonable for villains to make it -- yes, irrationally -- a goal to take them out completely and personally.

[Peelee]

Remember, Narkis' main point was that Johnson COULD have not followed that impression if he had wanted to because how specifically that was supposed to be interpreted was wide open. So while I and Narkis can use it for our main points -- that it was at a minimum a bit surprising -- you can't because what you have to be arguing against to argue against Narkis -- who, remember, is the one you were replying to -- is that given TFA Johnson could NOT have sensibly changed that line.

At this point, you can say that that was how you took it, which is fair but not really relevant to the discussion's starting points.

Point taken. I may well have been getting lost in the weeds there.

[Seppl]

If you don't destroy the republic fleet, then you're stuck with explaining why it doesn't turn up out for blood and crush the FO in TLJ. To maintain the stakes, the fleet has to vanish.

If things in the story just happen because you could not tell the story otherwise, then it is not a good story. The world you build should have internal consistency. If you just make things up without rhyme or reason, as required by your story, then events are just arbitrary plot points, devoid of any stakes.

In this case it is kind of hard to swallow that a galaxy sized nation could be crippled by the loss of a few planets, when previously it was established that the galaxy has tens of thousands habitable planets. What comes next?

Spoiler

Show

Some lone backwater system building 5000 Super Star Destroyers in total secrecy, that can rival the combined forces of the galaxy? Oh, wait...

[Tvtyrant]

The Republic was always there, that was the whole point of A New Hope. The Death Star would let them finally dismantle the Senate, which they can't do because it gets destroyed. When the Emperor dies the NR doesn't have to make a lot of changes to go back to the corrupt old days, and most of the imperial governors and senators would just swear fealty to republican principles and move on.

The First Order could have been established in like 5 minutes. The fleet that gets destroyed is the pro-Republican factions, the First Order is a pro-revivalist faction and most planets just switch to whoever is stronger because day to day it doesn't matter.

[dancrilis]

The Republic was always there, that was the whole point of A New Hope. The Death Star would let them finally dismantle the Senate, which they can't do because it gets destroyed

That is not what happened, the Emperor abolished the Senate in A New Hope.

Some Guy: "The Rebellion will continue to gain support in the Imperial Senate…"
Tarkin: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

The Death Star was intended going to keep the regional governors in line.

[Rakaydos]

All of the "TLJ should have said the republic is still around" arguing is pushing for TLJ to undermine TFA even more than it already appears to.

TFA ATTEMPTS to justify the resistance being important by nuking the Republic. As most of JJ's stuff, this doesn't stand up to 2 seconds of introspection, but The Mouse backed it up, so that's what we're going for. TLJ goes to great lengths to avoid retconning TFA. Some- Nay, MOST- of the answers it comes up with are unsatisfying giving the buildup in TFA, but none of it is actually contradicted by anything in TFA. IMO, that's an impressive feat all on it's own.