Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

[TalonOfAnathrax]

The basic idea is similar to troaccid's excellent yearly threads, but this time with a few more restrictions to shake things up :

• Spellcasting and Psionic powers do not function, nor do magic items which depend on them (or magic items generated by feats such as Ancestral Relic or Legacy Item feats). Item Familiars cannot take Weapon or Armour properties, but can become sentient and get sentient item abilities and can of course boost your skills.
• Invocations, Truenaming, Incarnum, Mysteries, Binds and other (Sp) and (Su) abilities still work - this isn't a ban on magic as a whole
• Everyone who responds to this thread as well as one in a million people chosen at random receive a dream granting them power. They may shape it now (choose class levels, etc) and it will slowly happen. Effectively you set your 20 levels now but don't get them all at once.
• The number of levels you receive per year corresponds to the Tier of the class you're taking. So a Tier 4 class would get 4 levels per year, and a Tier 3 class would only get 3. You still can't bypass level 20 total - lower Tier classes just get there much faster. Great for back-loaded classes!
• Prestige classes are allowed. The number of levels of a PrC you can get per year is unknown (PrCs don't have clear Tiers). Perhaps it will be one level a year for a crazy strong PrC, and perhaps it will be 4 or 5 a year for a wear PrC (one a PrC that fails to change the Tier of a weak class). I'll clarify once your choice is posted in-thread.
• You can still earn XP, but can't level from it. It's just there to pay XP costs, etc. Earning XP is done through milestones, and you cannot really predict them. However you are aware of your XP total. Earning XP is never fast, but it does get a little faster when your level increases.
• Dragon Magazine content is allowed.
• Weird abilities that aren't just class stuff (rituals to create Living Zombies or turn people into Necropolitans, Sculpt Self, etc) will require testing. Taking appropriate skill points is suggested. DCs will generally be very high for this stuff, and/or it may require years of experimentation and various difficult to acquire resources.
• Alchemy and similar magical crafting will require components which are difficult to find. You can't just buy things off amazon and expect to do Alchemy or whatever.
• This time around, you can have the elite array.
• Leadership is allowed, but your cohort will be under the same restrictions as you (no making a Wizard cohort). At least they'll instantly get the levels they're allowed.
• Your power-granting dream also comes with a vague warning that no matter what the people of earth choose to do with their new powers, things are coming... I'll post the timeline for that in a few days, so that you can make your choice with nothing more than a vague warning. You don't know what will happen, or how soon it is happening.
• You don't know whether or not D&D cosmology exists, or what sent you this dream. However abilities which rely on the Shadow, Etheral and Astral Planes still function.

Tier list, reposted here for convenience :

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Tier 1:
Cleric
Druid
Sha’ir
Archivist
Wizard
Shaman
Artificer
Wu Jen
Spontaneous Druid

Tier 2:
Death Master
Generic Spellcaster
Spontaneous Cleric
Urban Druid
Erudite
Psion
Sorcerer
Spirit Shaman
Evangelist
Mystic
Ardent
Dread Necromancer
Beguiler
Favored Soul
Mystic Ranger

Tier 3:
Wilder
Shugenja
Bard
Trickster Spellthief
Jester
Swordsage
Totemist
Crusader
Psychic Warrior
Warmage
Binder
Warlock
Warblade
Dragonfire Adept
Healer
Wild Shape Ranger
Duskblade
Factotum
Lurk
Psychic Rogue

Tier 4:
Wild Monk
Incarnate
Shadowcaster
Rogue
Barbarian
Generic Expert
Generic Warrior
Scout
Spellthief
Paladin
Adept
Ranger
Ninja
Savant
Fighter
Marshal

Tier 5:
Truenamer
Sohei
Hexblade
Monk
Battle Dancer
Divine Mind
Mountebank
Samurai (OA)
Dragon Shaman
Magewright
Swashbuckler
Knight
Noble
Soulborn
Soulknife
Samurai (CW)
Expert

Tier 6:
Aristocrat
Warrior
Commoner

[Elricaltovilla]

In a situation like this, I would probably go Wildshape Ranger > Warshaper > Master of Many Forms and probably take some of those ACFs that remove ranger spellcasting altogether. It's not terribly necessary for the build and since Wild Shape is an Su ability, I still get that and I can focus on cheating out extra SU and SP abilities from the forms I take.

EDIT: Your post doesn't describe how many levels we get per year depending on the tier of our class. You provided a link but I didn't see anything in the thread you linked to describe how many levels we would get.

Would Wildshape Ranger be tier 3 even if it loses spells? Pretty much impossible to get above tier 4 regardless without access to magic of some sort, and without magic there's no magic items so our math is going to drop precipitously.

[Ashtagon]

Incarnate seems the obvious choice here.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

In a situation like this, I would probably go Wildshape Ranger > Warshaper > Master of Many Forms and probably take some of those ACFs that remove ranger spellcasting altogether. It's not terribly necessary for the build and since Wild Shape is an Su ability, I still get that and I can focus on cheating out extra SU and SP abilities from the forms I take.

EDIT: Your post doesn't describe how many levels we get per year depending on the tier of our class. You provided a link but I didn't see anything in the thread you linked to describe how many levels we would get.

Would Wildshape Ranger be tier 3 even if it loses spells? Pretty much impossible to get above tier 4 regardless without access to magic of some sort, and without magic there's no magic items so our math is going to drop precipitously.

Edited the first post to clarify.

The number of levels you get is equal to the Tier of your class. Wildshape Ranger is Tier 3, and for the purpose of this thread Warshaper and Master of Many Forms Tier 3 are also when applied to a Wild Shape Ranger base. The basic combo of "lots of versatility + great damage or defensive potential" is still valid, and Master of Many Forms lets you access more and more types right as the basic Wild Shape starts to decline in power. Assuming you take Wild Shape feats, IMO you're Tier 3 all along. The loss of your tiny amount of Ranger spells isn't enough to make you do down a Tier.
This means that every year, you gain 3 levels. So now you're a Wild Shape Ranger 3, in 2021 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 1, in 2022 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 4, in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 2, in 2024 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 5, in 2025 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 8, and in 2026 you're a in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10.

[Sereg]

Incarnate seems the obvious choice here.

Agreed. That's what I'd go for. Maybe with a swordsage dip if that's allowed.

[Eldan]

It might actually be interesting to take a weak class under these restrictions. I mean, a Truenamer would be Level 20 in four years, at which point it's one of the strongest classes. A year after that, you're well into epic.

[Elricaltovilla]

Edited the first post to clarify.

The number of levels you get is equal to the Tier of your class. Wildshape Ranger is Tier 3, and for the purpose of this thread Warshaper and Master of Many Forms Tier 3 are also when applied to a Wild Shape Ranger base. The basic combo of "lots of versatility + great damage or defensive potential" is still valid, and Master of Many Forms lets you access more and more types right as the basic Wild Shape starts to decline in power. Assuming you take Wild Shape feats, IMO you're Tier 3 all along. The loss of your tiny amount of Ranger spells isn't enough to make you do down a Tier.
This means that every year, you gain 3 levels. So now you're a Wild Shape Ranger 3, in 2021 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 1, in 2022 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 4, in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 2, in 2024 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 5, in 2025 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 8, and in 2026 you're a in 2023 you're a Wild Shape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm tempted to muck around with the progression a bit to try and get a few of the abilities I particularly want earlier, but WS Ranger 4 > Warshaper 5 > MoMF 10 to WS Ranger 1 is much less of a headache. Are we all humans still or does our race change too?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

It might actually be interesting to take a weak class under these restrictions. I mean, a Truenamer would be Level 20 in four years, at which point it's one of the strongest classes. A year after that, you're well into epic.

Ah, this ends at level 20. However getting to level 20 fast is certainly very good, and how big is the difference between Tiers, really? Truenamer is rather strong at level 20, too. Not having to slog through mid levels is rather good for a Truenamer.

With an Item Familiar, you can get decent Truespeak skill checks even at level 20.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm tempted to muck around with the progression a bit to try and get a few of the abilities I particularly want earlier, but WS Ranger 4 > Warshaper 5 > MoMF 10 to WS Ranger 1 is much less of a headache. Are we all humans still or does our race change too?

How do you qualify for Warshaper without 5 levels of Wild Shape Ranger?
Your race is unchanged unless you somehow get into Shaper of Form or use some other way of changing your race after character creation. Feel free to take a pile of ranks in appropriate skills to research the ritual, and you will eventually be able to turn people into Necropolitan for example (although turning yourself into a Necropolitan seems difficult seeing as the ritual involves dying halfway through, but surely there's some clever way around that that I haven't thought of!).

[Elricaltovilla]

.


How do you qualify for Warshaper without 5 levels of Wild Shape Ranger?
Your race is unchanged unless you somehow get into Shaper of Form or use some other way of changing your race after character creation. Feel free to take a pile of ranks in appropriate skills to research the ritual, and you will eventually be able to turn people into Necropolitan for example (although turning yourself into a Necropolitan seems difficult seeing as the ritual involves dying halfway through, but surely there's some clever way around that that I haven't thought of!).

Because I don't have access to primary sources right now and misremembered how wild shape ranger works. I wouldn't want to bother becoming a necropolitan personally. I prefer Elans for my undying needs, or transferring my consciousness into a warforged body. Those sorts of things are probably outside the scope of my abilities given my class and your restrictions, however.

[White Blade]

Factotum if I'm not feeling like a being a hard ass for all eternity, Monk/Paladin VoP if I am.
Facototum is just Keen Intellect and Font of Inspiration until the stars die. Pick up enough languages to be doing well - ASL, French, Spanish, Chinese at level one.
Monk/Paladin:

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Monk 18/Paladin 2, Vow of Poverty -> Vow of Peace. Monk 7 -> Paladin 2 -> Monk 13 -> Monk 18.
2020 White Blade:

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Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow Of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence (1st), Vow of Peace (2nd). Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (3rd), Nimbus of Light (4th).
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Immune to bullets (Vow of Peace), never need to eat or drink.

2021 White Blade

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Feats: Gift of Discernment, Lightning Reflexes (6th). Gift Of Fatih (8th). Serenity (9th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Heal. Tumble/Swim on Monk levels (2).
Functionally immune to bombs and most reflex save requirements now.

2022 White Blade

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Feats: Intuitive Attack (10th), Stigmata, Able Learner (12th), Exalted Smite (14th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Never have to sleep! Party all night! +27 Diplomacy!

2023 White Blade

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Feats: Negotiator (15th), Hands of a Healer (16th), Gift of Grace, Iron Will (18th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Universal translator, my fists can punch through tanks. No longer aging at the respectable age of thirty.

Vow of Purity just to dump it and we're done in 2024.

[Sinner's Garden]

Warlock/Anima Mage/Hellfire Warlock would be my build of preference. Throw in a bloodline, uncanny trickster and legacy champion for more binding, dip Apostle of the Green Lady if it's kosher (technically homebrew, but referenced in official material makes it close enough to try). Might take a level of another binding class to put my binding level over 20. If I can get some access to, for example, psychic chirurgery or some scaled up versions of Codex Invocare to expand my invocations known, I'd take some levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. I'd like to dip Nosomatic Chirurgeon, but it's probably not happening due to racial restrictions. Anyway, there's a full level twenty progression in there somewhere. As usual, I also want to take the Vow of Poverty and use Bestow Curse to remove any actual restrictions on behavior, and contract lycanthropy when possible to bump up my HD over 20 and gain access to epic feats; binder and warlock both have some really swanky ones, you know!

[Menzath]

Huh. I'd probably do something wacky like Divine mind 10/Marshal 7/Binder 3.
For feats, dragon touched, draconic auraX2, and double draconic aura.
That should give me something like 6 stackable auras, and a little binding on the side for fun.

[Kalkra]

Since you seem to be trying to avoid complexity, huge amounts of inane questions, and large quantities of cheese, I'll steer clear of this thread. I don't think I could help myself.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Factotum if I'm not feeling like a being a hard ass for all eternity, Monk/Paladin VoP if I am.
Facototum is just Keen Intellect and Font of Inspiration until the stars die. Pick up enough languages to be doing well - ASL, French, Spanish, Chinese at level one.
Monk/Paladin:

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Monk 18/Paladin 2, Vow of Poverty -> Vow of Peace. Monk 7 -> Paladin 2 -> Monk 13 -> Monk 18.
2020 White Blade:

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Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow Of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence (1st), Vow of Peace (2nd). Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (3rd), Nimbus of Light (4th).
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Immune to bullets (Vow of Peace), never need to eat or drink.

2021 White Blade

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Feats: Gift of Discernment, Lightning Reflexes (6th). Gift Of Fatih (8th). Serenity (9th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Heal. Tumble/Swim on Monk levels (2).
Functionally immune to bombs and most reflex save requirements now.

2022 White Blade

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Feats: Intuitive Attack (10th), Stigmata, Able Learner (12th), Exalted Smite (14th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Never have to sleep! Party all night! +27 Diplomacy!

2023 White Blade

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Feats: Negotiator (15th), Hands of a Healer (16th), Gift of Grace, Iron Will (18th)
Skills: Diplomacy, Tumble, Swim, Sense Motive, Heal (CC).
Universal translator, my fists can punch through tanks. No longer aging at the respectable age of thirty.

Vow of Purity just to dump it and we're done in 2024.

This is an interesting build, thanks for sharing it. You even got the number of levels per Tier exactly right, which I appreciate!
This is a really solid setup actually. It's tough and hard to kill, but it's also very useful day-to-day with excellent Diplomacy skills and even some healing. It also progresses fast and is nicely frontloaded (immune to bullets from year one, nice!), which will prove useful.

I like the fact that despite taking ostensibly "combat" classes (Paladin and Monk aren't exactly known for day-to-day utility if they don't go adventuring) you've avoided being pigeonholed. Excellent Diplomacy and Sense Motive, healing, and even cool parkour skills if that's your jam. AFAIK Tumble can even be monetized, and with that many skill ranks you could even make a career out of it if you don't like your current one.

I'm not quite sure how you get agelessness though. The Monk ability still has you die of old age when your time is up, so it's less agelessness and more really good healthcare :D
For real Immortality, I suggest taking a Flaw and the Wedded to History feat from Dragon Magazine. Not the most elegant method, but it works and I can't see another way for your build to really become ageless (you don't really have much magic or lore skills that could translate into giving yourself any kind of template - although you could spontaneously qualify for Saint easily enough).

Warlock/Anima Mage/Hellfire Warlock would be my build of preference. Throw in a bloodline, uncanny trickster and legacy champion for more binding, dip Apostle of the Green Lady if it's kosher (technically homebrew, but referenced in official material makes it close enough to try). Might take a level of another binding class to put my binding level over 20. If I can get some access to, for example, psychic chirurgery or some scaled up versions of Codex Invocare to expand my invocations known, I'd take some levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. I'd like to dip Nosomatic Chirurgeon, but it's probably not happening due to racial restrictions. Anyway, there's a full level twenty progression in there somewhere. As usual, I also want to take the Vow of Poverty and use Bestow Curse to remove any actual restrictions on behavior, and contract lycanthropy when possible to bump up my HD over 20 and gain access to epic feats; binder and warlock both have some really swanky ones, you know!

Well then. There's actually way more than 20 levels in there - there's no way you can fit all that in there. Still, those are a lot of interesting ideas!
Note that Warlock, Nosomatic Chirurgeon (in this context) and Hellfire Warlock are Tier 3, but I'm counting Anima Mage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Apostle of the Green Lady as Tier 2 classes (so you get 2 levels a year) because they're advancing 2 Tier 3 classes at once (except Initiate, but its class features are incredibly strong anyway). This would be a slow progression build with an awful lot of total power. Full warlock progression with Binding on the side? Very nice, very versatile, and very useful both in and out of combat.
I'll be ruling that Zceryll does work, but that you can't summon spellcasting monsters (Ursinals, etc). Monsters with SLAs and (Su) abilities are fine, of course.

Bloodlines are weird : you can't get them with your yearly level-ups unless you have enough XP saved up, and its hard to gain XP reliably seeing as combat alone won't do it unless it's somehow momentous or life-changing. Momentous social encounters, life experiences and personal growth will award XP.
I'll rule that bloodlines do work with this weird way of leveling up, but rely entirely on your XP total. If your XP total is too low at the time of the level-up, you don't get the bloodline level. This doesn't stop you from getting the next bloodline level. This weirdness is explained by the weirdness of your situation, and by the difficulty that returning magic has in awakening a long-dormant magical bloodline.
Of course you can only get one bloodline, and it probably isn't a major one unless someone in your IRL family slept with a supernatural being in the last few generations? If so, I suggest that you go and see a scientist right now and get your DNA examined! I'm sure they'll find it very intriguing, and you might even be able to claim those monetary rewards for proof of the supernatural! :P

Huh. I'd probably do something wacky like Divine mind 10/Marshal 7/Binder 3.
For feats, dragon touched, draconic auraX2, and double draconic aura.
That should give me something like 6 stackable auras, and a little binding on the side for fun.

I'm genuinely curious as to what you would do with such a build. Divine Mind, Binder and Marshal are all classes with many different possible focuses. Are you going to buff your social skills? Buff people's Int-based skills and monetise your services to R&D services? Somehow go for theft? Is this a combat-focused build somehow?
You're getting fast levelling for the first few classes (Divine Mind levels come 5 by 5, and Marshal is Tier 4). I presume you'll be starting with Divine Mind?

Since you seem to be trying to avoid complexity, huge amounts of inane questions, and large quantities of cheese, I'll steer clear of this thread. I don't think I could help myself.

I'm actually fine with complexity, inane questions, and cheese. I'm just done with spellcasters. If you have cheese that doesn't involve them, go for it!

Agreed. That's what I'd go for. Maybe with a swordsage dip if that's allowed.

Dips are indeed allowed. When do you want to dip swordsage? At low levels for immediate power, or at high levels to be able to get the strongest maneuvers? If you dip it at level 20, you can get level 5 maneuvers for example.

[White Blade]

Talon: Yeah, I know on the agelessness front but I’ll have Patrick Stewart style aging where I’m in good health till I die and I’m happy with that. But since flaws are in play, I’ll take Tirelessness and Shaky so I never have to sleep and can hustle anywhere I want to go. Just eight hours straight of hustling. Since I have Vow of Poverty it doesn’t really matter if I could get a job or not - Just perpetually broke as all get out regardless. The technical wording is that I can’t own or use material possessions. Would that mean that I couldn’t, say, get married to someone who has a house and live in it? Would it preclude reading books inside the library (obviously owning a library card is right out)?

[Celestia]

I think I'll mimic the other guy in the thread and go for a shapeshifting build. Though, I'll gain the levels in a different order. I'll go Ranger 5/MoMF 2/Warshaper 5/MoMF +8. That way, I can get humanoid and large forms as quickly as possible.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Talon: Yeah, I know on the agelessness front but I’ll have Patrick Stewart style aging where I’m in good health till I die and I’m happy with that. But since flaws are in play, I’ll take Tirelessness and Shaky so I never have to sleep and can hustle anywhere I want to go. Just eight hours straight of hustling. Since I have Vow of Poverty it doesn’t really matter if I could get a job or not - Just perpetually broke as all get out regardless. The technical wording is that I can’t own or use material possessions. Would that mean that I couldn’t, say, get married to someone who has a house and live in it? Would it preclude reading books inside the library (obviously owning a library card is right out)?

I'm generous with Vow of Poverty: it's literal ownership. If you're squatting in someone else's house for months on end your vow isn't broken, because you're really just borrowing their possessions ans they could kick you out tomorrow.
However I suggest not making it too permanent, because if the stuff starts really feeling like yours you break your vow. Best to move around, or develop some humility and automatic sharing real fast.
Actually the easiest way to avoid breaking a vow of poverty is to go living in a commune and really get into the "shared possessions" thing. Well, either that or simply living the life of a traveling hobo. From year one you have endure elements and don't need food or water, and are safe from other humans no matter where you go. You could literally quit everything and go wander in the jungle in South America, and you'd probably be fine assuming you can make your saves against disease.

Oh, and to make the feat more livable, we're using the interpretation of Gift of Discernment that allows it to work for all Vow feats (because breaching them would affect your "standing with your Deity"). So if you have Gift of Discernment and do some regular introspection, you should avoid breaking your vow easily enough.

If a library card was free you could have one, and could even borrow books. They wouldn't be yours, after all - you'll have to return them soon.

[White Blade]

You could literally quit everything and go wander in the jungle in South America, and you'd probably be fine assuming you can make your saves against disease. .

Immune to non-magical diseases from the word go (not that I'd leave the U.S.A, since it's where I live). Yeah, all that seems fine. I'd be pretty happy as a sleepless, lovable hobo. Especially since I can just get a normal library card. If I ever got married, might be weird, but I'd also be happy in a commune. Done it before and I'd do it again. EDIT: Also, is it possible to get Saint Template?

[Sinner's Garden]

Well then. There's actually way more than 20 levels in there - there's no way you can fit all that in there. Still, those are a lot of interesting ideas!
Note that Warlock, Nosomatic Chirurgeon (in this context) and Hellfire Warlock are Tier 3, but I'm counting Anima Mage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Apostle of the Green Lady as Tier 2 classes (so you get 2 levels a year) because they're advancing 2 Tier 3 classes at once (except Initiate, but its class features are incredibly strong anyway). This would be a slow progression build with an awful lot of total power. Full warlock progression with Binding on the side? Very nice, very versatile, and very useful both in and out of combat.
I'll be ruling that Zceryll does work, but that you can't summon spellcasting monsters (Ursinals, etc). Monsters with SLAs and (Su) abilities are fine, of course.

Bloodlines are weird : you can't get them with your yearly level-ups unless you have enough XP saved up, and its hard to gain XP reliably seeing as combat alone won't do it unless it's somehow momentous or life-changing. Momentous social encounters, life experiences and personal growth will award XP.
I'll rule that bloodlines do work with this weird way of leveling up, but rely entirely on your XP total. If your XP total is too low at the time of the level-up, you don't get the bloodline level. This doesn't stop you from getting the next bloodline level. This weirdness is explained by the weirdness of your situation, and by the difficulty that returning magic has in awakening a long-dormant magical bloodline.
Of course you can only get one bloodline, and it probably isn't a major one unless someone in your IRL family slept with a supernatural being in the last few generations? If so, I suggest that you go and see a scientist right now and get your DNA examined! I'm sure they'll find it very intriguing, and you might even be able to claim those monetary rewards for proof of the supernatural! :P

Ah, I should have been clearer. Obviously, I wouldn't take all those classes all the way; trickster and champion are just dips for level cheese (I thought that was implied, but maybe you've seen people take them legitimately?) and Anima Mage will probably not be completed. Initiate was also to be truncated because the bloodline levels would progress access to more veil colors. I actually always forget that RAW you can take several bloodlines, despite being a frequent proponent of them, but being restricted from a major bloodline will unfortunately prevent me from maxing out my binding, which means even if I do manage that sweet werewolf HD, I can't benefit from any of the epic vestiges.

Actually, let's see it written out. Something along the lines of Warlock 1/Anima Mage 8/Apostle 1/Trickster 1/Hellfire 3/Champion 1/Initiate 5. 1+2 for Green Lady, 8+2 for Anima Mage, 2 for Trickster, 2 for Champion, and we've got 17 binding levels. I can also substitute two levels into different binding classes to get 21 binding levels without sacrificing access to dark invocations, presuming I can use Trickster and Champion's bloodline induced shadow levels to progress Anima Mage. Of course, I only actually need eighth level binds to get those epic feats in the event that I manage that whole werewolf deal, which is 16 + a feat, but if the build doesn't work correctly, I think warlock is more important.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

White Blade, I haven't restricted Saint at all. The conditions for unlocking it are in the BoED, and there's absolutely nothing stopping you from getting it IRL. Just go around selflessly doing good, and you'll probably get it eventually. However although it's been a while since I reread that chapter of BoED, I'm pretty sure that Saint requires painful sacrifice for the good of others to get, so it probably won't be a pleasant experience.

Ah, I should have been clearer. Obviously, I wouldn't take all those classes all the way; trickster and champion are just dips for level cheese (I thought that was implied, but maybe you've seen people take them legitimately?) and Anima Mage will probably not be completed. Initiate was also to be truncated because the bloodline levels would progress access to more veil colors. I actually always forget that RAW you can take several bloodlines, despite being a frequent proponent of them, but being restricted from a major bloodline will unfortunately prevent me from maxing out my binding, which means even if I do manage that sweet werewolf HD, I can't benefit from any of the epic vestiges.

Actually, let's see it written out. Something along the lines of Warlock 1/Anima Mage 8/Apostle 1/Trickster 1/Hellfire 3/Champion 1/Initiate 5. 1+2 for Green Lady, 8+2 for Anima Mage, 2 for Trickster, 2 for Champion, and we've got 17 binding levels. I can also substitute two levels into different binding classes to get 21 binding levels without sacrificing access to dark invocations, presuming I can use Trickster and Champion's bloodline induced shadow levels to progress Anima Mage. Of course, I only actually need eighth level binds to get those epic feats in the event that I manage that whole werewolf deal, which is 16 + a feat, but if the build doesn't work correctly, I think warlock is more important.

Ah, I understand. Interesting build. Not quite TO (it's based on Warlock and Binder after all) but definitely high-powered. It should work fine, unless you do nothing whatsoever with your life and fail to earn any XP for several years.
However, unless I'm wrong Bloodline levels only apply to classes you had before you took the bloodline level. Right?
So if you want both levels to apply to all those PrCs, you'd have to have already entered them all before level 6, which seems quite impossible.

Incidentally, which bloodline would you want?

[Sinner's Garden]

Immune to non-magical diseases from the word go (not that I'd leave the U.S.A, since it's where I live). Yeah, all that seems fine. I'd be pretty happy as a sleepless, lovable hobo. Especially since I can just get a normal library card. If I ever got married, might be weird, but I'd also be happy in a commune. Done it before and I'd do it again. EDIT: Also, is it possible to get Saint Template?

You just have to be Good and recognized by a church, more or less. You can found a church and use the SS rituals to obtain the [Good] subtype.

Ah, I understand. Interesting build. Not quite TO (it's based on Warlock and Binder after all) but definitely high-powered. It should work fine, unless you do nothing whatsoever with your life and fail to earn any XP for several years.
However, unless I'm wrong Bloodline levels only apply to classes you had before you took the bloodline level. Right?
So if you want both levels to apply to all those PrCs, you'd have to have already entered them all before level 6, which seems quite impossible.

Incidentally, which bloodline would you want?

That right? I guess you can tell I've been out of the game for a while that I'm mixing things up; I edited it, but I forgot that the epic binder feats required knowledge 2X and not binder levels. Okay, I guess I'd need to switch things around after all, and probably toss out Champion entirely as I do recall that requires clvl 10, meaning it trades one level of progression to gain one level of progression, though the BAB and saves may make it worth keeping over another level of Anima Mage. Probably have to drop a few levels off of it, though, and put one in Binder, then maybe shuffle two more over to Initiate to get it to 7/7, and I should still have eighth level vestiges with Improved Binding. Actually, was that 18 or 17? I could probably switch out a fourth level if I needed it somewhere else, but unless I was a halfling in a past life to score the healing Dragonmark and nab Nosomatic Chirurgeon, nothing in particular comes to mind. Wild Mage? Abjurant Champion, for the +1/+1? I could do Mindbender, but if I'm half-Binder, I've got Zcerryl in my back pocket. War Mage, maybe?

Oh, and for bloodline, the Fey one would be most appropriate, though the Celestial one would be pretty funny too, so one of those.

[StSword]

Well first of all, considering the spirit of the rules here, I'd suggest banning the Artificer's infusions, which are the exact freaking same but WotC thought they'd be clever and make them technically not spells, and the Sculpt Self feat from Dragon magazine which technically isn't an item creation feat but lets you turn yourself into a magic item.

I'll get back to you, I'm not sure if I want to go truenamer or warlock.

[Coventry]

Looks like Marshal for me. As a Tier 4 class, that means 4 levels, which means 2 minor auras and one major one.

Minor Aura: Motivate Dexterity. Motivate Intelligence. (boost dexterity or intelligence checks and skill rolls)
Major Aura: Steady Hand (bonus on ranged attack rolls)

Get hired as a basketball coach at a mid-major college. Make sure my team gets all the bonuses. Work hard for a few years to seal a reputation of turning good players into great ones, or great players into Michael Jordan/LeBron James.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Artificer. I wanna make golems. Between my homunculi and elder eidolons, I can make all the fun constructs I want. Just in case this threat has magic, I take the spellfire channeler feat. I will put a few skill points into lucid dreaming as well. I would like to tack on trollblooded and mark of xoriat for extra beefyness, but the mark requires aberrant dragonmark. If they work the yay, if not that is fine.

[Maat Mons]

You said spell-like abilities are okay? So I could go Factotum for up to 7th-level SLAs from the Sor/Wiz list?

I don't really understand the limit on magic items. They don't work if they "depend on" spellcasting? Does that mean all Artificer-crafted items work, because Artificers don't need spellcasting to craft?

If you nix Factotum and Artificer, I'm currently thinking maybe something with Invocations, Incarnum, or both. But I should probably actually learn how the Tome of Magic classes work, in case any of those would be good.

In any case, probably add on Night Haunt for the oh-so-handy Prestidigitation SLA.

[ekarney]

I think I'm going Binder honestly. If I can cop improved Binding then it's just 5 years to get Zceryll. I'm okay with this.

Shame spellcasting isn't allowed or you could bet your butter I'd be the off the chain with a Wu Jen Anima Mage build.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I wonder if we could find a way to get spellstitched.

[Quertus]

Well, "a few more restrictions" means that I figure I probably already know what answers "dreaming me" gets for things like "homebrew feats, classes, etc". However, I'll explicitly ask if this is added to or replaces our existing skills, stats, etc. Most of my reply was written from the "add to" PoV.

Now, you'd think that "no casters" would mean I wouldn't bother posting. However, the three little words "things are coming" sounds like it has the "puts the few things I care about in this world at risk" motivation built in.

Like in the previous thread (that I cannot find) that poked this motivation, it brings out my inner optimizer, and makes me play for keeps. So, unlike in most such threads, I would be willing to sacrifice certain things for power.

Given this clause - "Everyone who responds to this thread as well as one in a million people chosen at random receive a dream granting them power." - I must assume that the interface is intuitive for those who haven't the foggiest idea what "D&D" is (let alone the optimization potential of the Playground). So I'd try a few things like "infinite attacks crit fisher builds" that I don't think actually work, to see if the interface happens to ping a match.

"Weird stuff" getting the nerf bat is a pain. We'll come back to that, and come back to whether Sculpt Self will be valuable in this context.

Assuming none of those builds got a match, there are two options that look good on paper. The first involves taking Vow of Poverty. With a GP coming in at hundreds of dollars, you can own and use a lot of stuff. Firearms (which have some nice damage in D&D, iirc), ammo, sticks of dynamite, D&D books, even a really bad car could be within budget. However, if you mess up, you're boned. Get handed an expensive gun, or use the wrong piece of scientific equipment, or need to drive an ambulance, or use a computer at work, or sleep in a nice bed? Boned. Unless you get magic value senses, you're boned; even if you do, you'll likely have some tough choices where you have to watch friends die to keep your Vow. That sounds like something I'd rather avoid.

Also, I struggle to imagine effective research (let alone rituals or modem life/combat/medicine) without $$$, and I would love to drive a bus (or a tank!) over some monsters, so, all in all, that's a no-go for me.

Instead, I'd simply poke the interface for "optimal skill build, pre Illithid Savant". Expert, Marshal, Rogue, True Namer, Binder, Factotum, I don't really care. Although I'd want to leave room for, at minimum, Trollblooded. Then I'd call out Pazazu's name thrice, and thrice again, to remove this "conscience" that might hold me back from what needs to be done. Assuming he showed, I would negotiate for a single ritual to make me an Undead Aberration (with no horrific side effects) and whatever information he'd give me about this scenario, offering to "sing his praises to the masses" in exchange for his… best efforts / not ****ing me over here. I think with billions of souls on the line, he might even consider throwing in some "me speak more good" bonuses to his new salesman for free, but maybe that's me being too optimistic

Having as close to having sold my soul as likely possible, I would (hopefully) have an "all but immune to damage" chassis, impressive skill checks, and, should I deem this "vague threat" to actually constitute a threat to what I care about, I would have my already considerable skill with (some) weapons augmented by several D&D class levels to world-class levels from the get-go, and a build designed to literally eat my enemies, and turn their strengths against them. And, should I deem that this vague threat does not constitute a danger to what I love, I'm still a knowledgeable immortal who never has to actually eat brains, and I only developed a sadistic love of pain and suffering in the process of getting there.

If negotiations go poorly, I might just be a Necropolitan (and down a level), with a ritual to become an Elan later, and no intel. The Elan would wait until after I got a cohort, whose job would be to steer the "no longer me" me to still protect what I once loved. I would encourage this tactic of taking Leadership for others (to double our numbers!), and disseminate the ritual to anyone who wanted it (after securing my own components first, if they were not provided, as my build definitely needs the race change… and after making sure people understand that it's "B5 'death of personality'" that we're talking about here).

If he never shows, I'm just a knowledgeable regenerating tank with some innate combat skills, and I've got a lot of research ahead of me. But, hopefully, instead of an Elan, I'll learn how to become a "me-lan" Since I'm apparently building this from scratch.

Speaking of research… do Knowledge skills represent, you know, Knowledge, or not? In the game, they do; in this challenge, they don't seem to be treated that way. The idea of "if you make a really high knowledge DC, you are qualified to do years of research" seems like, well, nonsense to my ears. Then again, I got handed, "here's how DNA is translated", and immediately started writing code with it, so I may have a different perspective than most on the relationships between research, knowledge, and action.

If you couldn't tell from above, IMO, one of our primary objectives should be to find and babysit the thousands of terrible builds until next year(+), when we get them to take leadership, and choose good levels for those thousands of new recruits. Similarly, another primary objective should be to screen candidates for cohorts, choosing people with good "off-sheet" skills - soldiers, doctors, geniuses, etc - or who are in good positions to assist us. Heck, just choosing "every world leader" might make "combat in the streets" or "enacting policies to save the world" easier.

Oh, right, Sculpt Self. In this context, I might aim to use Sculpt Self strictly for the long-game, and aim to use it to obtain Resurrection powers. Because Resurrection seems the best failsafe to protect what I love, and Sculpt Self seems about the only way to achieve that in this scenario.

Also. While "vague warnings" might make the end result seem more "fair", it makes the being that is giving us the warning look like an idiot. Or like they're playing a game with us. Or some other equally non-flattering scenario.

Since you seem to be trying to avoid complexity, huge amounts of inane questions, and large quantities of cheese, I'll steer clear of this thread. I don't think I could help myself.

"Everyone who responds to this thread as well as one in a million people chosen at random receive a dream granting them power."

Too late, you've already responded

EDIT: "You can't just buy things off amazon and expect to do Alchemy or whatever."

Actually, if bad stuff comes, magic returns, etc, the world would be pants on head stupid (and I would step in and replace Amazon in a heartbeat in this scenario) if you *couldn't* buy alchemy supplies off Amazon. So long as they actually existed, that is. Just saying.

I expect, with the world leaders as our cohorts, The equivalent of the FDA, but with global reach, would police the quality of alchemical supplies with extreme prejudice.

Also, since Artificer apparently isn't "greyed out", I'd probably aim for my cohort to be an Artificer. Who, curiously, would skyrocket past "PCs" who chose to level in Artificer.

[Maat Mons]

Some more questions.

Is this strictly 3.5, or is Pathfinder allowed too?

How does Sinner's Garden's build meet the prerequisites for Anima Mage and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Whatever it's doing, does the same thing work to get into Soulcaster?

Is it still possible to take levels in casting classes, even though the spells won't work? If we take levels in spellcasting classes, can we then take things that have spellcasting as a prerequisite, even though our spells don't work? If we take Archmage or Hierophant, can we sacrifice our non-working spells for High Arcana / Special Abilities?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, if (Su) abilities are explicitly allowed, I'd go for psion with the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat...

Something like martial monk 2 / psion w / ardent x / psywar y / psionic spellthief z / etcwith the psionic adaptation of the Master Spellthief feat pushing for as many stacking manifester levels as possible. (Take 6 levels in commoner for a full year, then retrain into the above.)

Yeah, it's smacking against the spirit of the rules really hard, but according to the rules here it should work.