New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 34
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    annoyed Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Every year in the Oscars superhero movies like the Avengers movie franchise always get nominated for special effects. Oscars always turn a blind eye to see the worthiness for getting nominated for any other categories. Superhero movies are more than just flashy special. It has a wonderful storyline. Great actors and actresses. Great directors and directing. I mean for the love of Hulk, Iron Man just sacrificed his life and died in Avengers: Endgame, this couldn't get any more Oscar-worthy than that. What do you think about this topic?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kitten Champion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    The criteria the Oscar judges tend to look for in their nominations are different than yours. Fantasy and action movies rarely get acknowledged in Best Picture, and while Endgame is a fine movie that I quite like... it doesn't do anything transcendent within genre movies.

    Predominantly the Oscars favour straight dramas which attempt to tackle deeper themes and are usually put forth by auteur film-makers with distinct styles rather than expensive blockbusters. This is why they wanted to include a "popular film" category as it would entail movies the common rabble will likely have seen that year and thus give them a point of investment... but, well, it wasn't well received.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    The criteria the Oscar judges tend to look for in their nominations are different than yours. Fantasy and action movies rarely get acknowledged in Best Picture, and while Endgame is a fine movie that I quite like... it doesn't do anything transcendent within genre movies.

    Predominantly the Oscars favour straight dramas which attempt to tackle deeper themes and are usually put forth by auteur film-makers with distinct styles rather than expensive blockbusters. This is why they wanted to include a "popular film" category as it would entail movies the common rabble will likely have seen that year and thus give them a point of investment... but, well, it wasn't well received.
    Well I do know that Black Panther did get nominated for Best Pictures and other categories such as costume design. And yet Black Panther didn't win for Best Pictures but it did win for best costume design.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kitten Champion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Black Panther did tackle weightier themes - straight on - and is far more auteur than most Superhero movies. It was also in the shadow of controversy regarding the Oscars and racial politics, which probably effected some of that decision.

    Endgame does things well, but it's just another big-budgeted action movie at the end of the day. It certainly wasn't made with the intent of trying for an Oscar, just to make money and push the Marvel story and brand further.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Black Panther did tackle weightier themes - straight on - and is far more auteur than most Superhero movies. It was also in the shadow of controversy regarding the Oscars and racial politics, which probably effected some of that decision.

    Endgame does things well, but it's just another big-budgeted action movie at the end of the day. It certainly wasn't made with the intent of trying for an Oscar, just to make money and push the Marvel story and brand further.
    Well, I guess that's very understandable. I wish there were more superhero movies such as Black Panther to get nominated for Best Pictures and actually win for a change.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-01-09 at 08:58 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    afroakuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    So the thing about Black Panther is this, and ahead are spoilers for Black Panther so tread carefully those who haven't seen:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Blank Panther is a pretty good action film for the first 40 minutes of runtime. Then it hits its weightier themes and gives development and resonance to Killmonger that's incredibly good. Then... it becomes a generic action flick.

    There are a lot of tremendous things done in Black Panther, a great many of them in the production design - I remarked when I left that it felt like it was calling back to a lineage of Afrofuturist mainstream films that don't actually exist, it was that confident with what it presented. There are also some truly weak elements, particularly W'Kabi's defection - a deleted scene "explains" it in a way that just shows how truly hollow it was.


    It is a good movie, and I hope it'll spur more productions to be so ambitious and recognize the untapped potential of the artists who brought it to life and those waiting in the wings for their shot. It's not Best Picture.

    Now mind you, many of the films that the Oscars choose to honor aren't, particularly. A notable thing happened beginning with the 82nd Academy Awards in 2009, and it's because of what they messed up the year prior: Best Picture expanded beyond five nominees. This was driven by two notable snubs in the same year: WALL-E, which was a critical darling well-received by audiences, and The Dark Knight, which... likewise. That year, the slate of nominees was Slumdog Millionaire, Benjamin Button, Milk, Frost/Nixon, and The Reader. I really enjoyed Frost/Nixon. I didn't enjoy it more than The Dark Knight or WALL-E.

    So they expanded the slate and made sure to include "popular" films, which is how you end up with the following. Note "traditional" nominees are in bold.

    Spoiler: 2009
    Show
    • The Hurt Locker (winner)
    • The Blind Side
    • Avatar (borderline, but a big effects-driven Dances With Wolves does hit some buttons)
    • District 9
    • An Education
    • Inglourious Basterds
    • Precious: Based on the Novel 'Push' bu Sapphire
    • A Serious Man
    • Up
    • Up in the Air


    Spoiler: 2010
    Show
    • The King's Speech (winner)
    • 127 Hours
    • Black Swan
    • The Fighter
    • Inception
    • The Kids Are All Right
    • The Social Network
    • Toy Story 3
    • True Grit
    • Winter's Bone


    Spoiler: 2011
    Show
    • The Artist (winner)
    • The Descendants
    • Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close
    • The Help
    • Hugo
    • Midnight in Paris
    • Moneyball
    • The Tree of Life
    • War Horse


    Spoiler: 2012
    Show
    • Argo (winner)
    • Amour
    • Beasts of the Southern Wild
    • Django Unchained
    • Les Miserables
    • Life of Pi
    • Lincoln
    • Silver Linings Playbook
    • Zero Dark Thirty


    You can see they started to close ranks pretty much immediately, because studios lobby for Best Picture with their little prestige films nobody went to see. They lobby super hard for the nominations. The impact of individual films is thinned. Compare the field in 1994:

    Spoiler: 1994
    Show
    • Forrest Gump (winner)
    • Four Weddings and a Funeral
    • Pulp Fiction
    • Quiz Show
    • The Shawshank Redemption


    The winner is easily from the bottom two of that field, and is still an impactful film. Quiz Show is likely the least known of the five, and is still a tremendous and interesting story and classic Oscar-type film. The Shawshank Redemption is the best film to get jilted for all kinds of big awards - it's unreal how hard it was shut out considering how good it is. Pulp Fiction is of course Tarantino at peak Tarantino.

    So the Oscars have drifted away from "best movie" to "best Oscar-type movie" and went through a flirtation with lying about it, the product of which is Black Panther getting a nomination for an award it never had a chance of winning, because the producers fear loss of audience share and relevance. All that being said, neither Black Panther nor Avengers: Endgame was the best movie of its year. They were movies that came with a big impact, to be sure, but Endgame is a greatest hits album that asks you to see over 20 other films as the price of admission. It's the last episode of the most expensive TV show ever made. Black Panther has a rich creative vision kept in check by the metastory standards it has to keep its eye on.
    Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.

    Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    So the thing about Black Panther is this, and ahead are spoilers for Black Panther so tread carefully those who haven't seen:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Blank Panther is a pretty good action film for the first 40 minutes of runtime. Then it hits its weightier themes and gives development and resonance to Killmonger that's incredibly good. Then... it becomes a generic action flick.

    There are a lot of tremendous things done in Black Panther, a great many of them in the production design - I remarked when I left that it felt like it was calling back to a lineage of Afrofuturist mainstream films that don't actually exist, it was that confident with what is presented. There are also some truly weak elements, particularly W'Kabi's defection - a deleted scene "explains" it in a way that just shows how truly hollow it was.


    It is a good movie, and I hope it'll spur more productions to be so ambitious and recognize the untapped potential of the artists who brought it to life and those waiting in the wings for their shot. It's not Best Picture.

    Now mind you, many of the films that the Oscars choose to honour aren't, particularly. A notable thing happened to begin with the 82nd Academy Awards in 2009, and it's because of what they messed up the year prior: Best Picture expanded beyond five nominees. This was driven by two notable snubs in the same year: WALL-E, which was a critical darling well-received by audiences, and The Dark Knight, which... likewise. That year, the slate of nominees was Slumdog Millionaire, Benjamin Button, Milk, Frost/Nixon, and The Reader. I really enjoyed Frost/Nixon. I didn't enjoy it more than The Dark Knight or WALL-E.

    So they expanded the slate and made sure to include "popular" films, which is how you end up with the following. Note "traditional" nominees are in bold.

    Spoiler: 2009
    Show
    • The Hurt Locker (winner)
    • The Blind Side
    • Avatar (borderline, but a big effects-driven Dances With Wolves does hit some buttons)
    • District 9
    • An Education
    • Inglourious Basterds
    • Precious: Based on the Novel 'Push' bu Sapphire
    • A Serious Man
    • Up
    • Up in the Air


    Spoiler: 2010
    Show
    • The King's Speech (winner)
    • 127 Hours
    • Black Swan
    • The Fighter
    • Inception
    • The Kids Are All Right
    • The Social Network
    • Toy Story 3
    • True Grit
    • Winter's Bone


    Spoiler: 2011
    Show
    • The Artist (winner)
    • The Descendants
    • Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close
    • The Help
    • Hugo
    • Midnight in Paris
    • Moneyball
    • The Tree of Life
    • War Horse


    Spoiler: 2012
    Show
    • Argo (winner)
    • Amour
    • Beasts of the Southern Wild
    • Django Unchained
    • Les Miserables
    • Life of Pi
    • Lincoln
    • Silver Linings Playbook
    • Zero Dark Thirty


    You can see they started to close ranks pretty much immediately because studios lobby for Best Picture with their little prestige films nobody went to see. They lobby super hard for the nominations. The impact of individual films is thinned. Compare the field in 1994:

    Spoiler: 1994
    Show
    • Forrest Gump (winner)
    • Four Weddings and a Funeral
    • Pulp Fiction
    • Quiz Show
    • The Shawshank Redemption


    The winner is easily from the bottom two of that field and is still an impactful film. Quiz Show is likely the least known of the five and is still a tremendous and interesting story and classic Oscar-type film. The Shawshank Redemption is the best film to get jilted for all kinds of big awards - it's unreal how hard it was shut out considering how good it is. Pulp Fiction is, of course, Tarantino at peak Tarantino.

    So the Oscars have drifted away from "best movie" to "best Oscar-type movie" and went through a flirtation with lying about it, the product of which is Black Panther getting a nomination for an award it never had a chance of winning because the producers fear the loss of audience share and relevance. All that being said, neither Black Panther nor Avengers: Endgame was the best movie of its year. They were movies that came with a big impact, to be sure, but Endgame is a greatest hits album that asks you to see over 20 other films as the price of admission. It's the last episode of the most expensive TV show ever made. Black Panther has a rich creative vision kept in check by the metastory standards it has to keep its eye on.
    I understand that all the movies that you mentioned are great in their own way. But I just feel that Superhero movies are being snubbed all because the movies aren't deep enough to get nominated and win for the Oscar. Like just how deep can a movie be to get nominated for Best Pictures and win?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Endgame could conceivably get a nod for Best Picture in the same way Return of the King did as the capstone of a series of films. I doubt very much it’d win though.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    I mean, I like the marvel movies as much as the next guy, but while most of them are very entertaining, I'd also say that most of them don't really stand out in acting, direction or story, they all tend to be just competent in those fields. Just very interesting while doing it.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Endgame could conceivably get a nod for Best Picture in the same way Return of the King did as the capstone of a series of films. I doubt very much it’d win though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I mean, I like the Marvel movies as much as the next guy, but while most of them are very entertaining, I'd also say that most of them don't really stand out in acting, direction or story, they all tend to be just competent in those fields. Just very interesting while doing it.
    Well, the Oscars really need to change their standards of the criteria of what's considered to be Best Picture material.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    You should just ignore the Oscars (or any other award show) and watch what you like. Award shows are shameless self-promotion by the industry and the "winners" are chosen by internal politicking, not by any real effort to promote the best product. You will be much happier if you ignore them.

    That being said I must concur with Eldan. I cannot think of any superhero movies that are really outstanding as great works of art. The big-budget-special-effect-fests are usually at best adequate in other regards. There might be low-budget movies with outstanding stories (though I cannot think of any) but superhero movies kind of require a certain amount of special effects due to their very nature. Even the best written and acted story will be hampered if it comes bundled with bad effects.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    You should just ignore the Oscars (or any other award show) and watch what you like. Award shows are shameless self-promotion by the industry and the "winners" are chosen by internal politicking, not by any real effort to promote the best product. You will be much happier if you ignore them.

    That being said I must concur with Eldan. I cannot think of any superhero movies that are really outstanding as great works of art. The big-budget-special-effect-fests are usually at best adequate in other regards. There might be low-budget movies with outstanding stories (though I cannot think of any) but superhero movies kind of require a certain amount of special effects due to their very nature. Even the best written and acted story will be hampered if it comes bundled with bad effects.
    I wasn't ranting about the Oscars. I was just annoyed that superhero movies only get nominated for Special Effects Category in the Oscars. I do enjoy watching the Oscars though.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Special effects is what they are outstanding in and that's what they win for. Where's the problem?
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well, the Oscars really need to change their standards of the criteria of what's considered to be Best Picture material.
    Why? So far, it sounds like all you've said has been "their values are different than mine so they should change." What makes your opinion more correct than theirs? It's their award, they can make the criteria what they want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    You should just ignore the Oscars (or any other award show) and watch what you like. Award shows are shameless self-promotion by the industry and the "winners" are chosen by internal politicking, not by any real effort to promote the best product. You will be much happier if you ignore them.
    Also all of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    That being said I must concur with Eldan. I cannot think of any superhero movies that are really outstanding as great works of art.
    And also this.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Special effects are what they are outstanding in and that's what they win for. Where's the problem?
    As I mentioned before they're very worthiness to show their effort and hard work by getting nominated other than special effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Why? So far, it sounds like all you've said has been "their values are different than mine so they should change." What makes your opinion more correct than theirs? It's their award, they can make the criteria what they want.

    Also all of this.

    And also this.
    Because anyone who watches Superhero movie feels that they deserved to get nominated and win for Best Pictures.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-01-10 at 11:21 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    The main thing to understand about the Oscar's is that they're an industry award. It's a party for insiders, by insiders and about insiders. It's the same thing as car dealers, manufacturers and garages gathering around to pick the dealer, the car and the American SUV in the budget class of the year. This means two things:

    1 Given that the most prestigious jobs in the movie industry are the "above the line" jobs, the creative functions, and about half the voting members of the academy are actors, the movies picked are going to be their kind of movies. The movies that make Will Smith or Sandra Bullock say: "Man that was a powerful performance, I wish I had turned down The Matrix to do this one instead of Wild Wild West/Forces of Nature. I've always wanted to act a role like that!" Yes, Iron Man had a nice death scene in Endgame, it was a powerful moment. But it was one of maybe a handful of such moments in a decade of being portrayed by a flying CGI puppet with a steel face. I like CGI puppets, (though maybe not as much as rubber puppets) but I don't expect people who got into the movie business to act intensely, direct moving scenes or write great scripts to share my love of them.

    2 The party is not for us. Why are people even watching? It's nice to have the list, see what the insiders thought about the movies that came out last year, after all they do have a unique perspective on things and know more about movies than I do. But don't make it any bigger than that.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-01-10 at 11:24 AM.
    The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    As I mentioned before they're very worthiness to show their effort and hard work by getting nominated other than special effects.
    You haven't, though. You've said you like them. In your reviews, you say they have action, humor, and romance. You rate movies by being "Oscar-worthy," which you do not define. You then say that movies you like don't get Oscars for certain fields, without saying why you think they should, other than that you enjoyed them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Because anyone who watches Superhero movie feels that they deserved to get nominated and win for Best Pictures.
    I think you may be severely misjudging how people feel about superhero movies.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You haven't, though. You've said you like them. In your reviews, you say they have action, humor, and romance. You rate movies by being "Oscar-worthy," which you do not define. You then say that movies you like don't get Oscars for certain fields, without saying why you think they should, other than that you enjoyed them.

    I think you may be severely misjudging how people feel about superhero movies.
    I think mostly he's just severely misjudging what the Oscars are actually about. As our resident second level Expert mentioned, they aren't meant to be some objective measurement of the absolute best movie ever, its just what the insiders personally were interested in, as people on the inside specifically. I have no doubt that people step out of an Avengers movie going "wow, that was amazing!" a large majority of the time. Its just that "being amazing" isn't an Oscars category.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You haven't, though. You've said you like them. In your reviews, you say they have action, humour, and romance. You rate movies by being "Oscar-worthy," which you do not define. You then say that movies you like don't get Oscars for certain fields, without saying why you think they should, other than that you enjoyed them.

    I think you may be severely misjudging how people feel about superhero movies.
    Then maybe I should expand my movie reviews a lot deeper. How am I severely misjudging in what way?

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think mostly he's just severely misjudging what the Oscars are actually about. As our resident second level Expert mentioned, they aren't meant to be some objective measurement of the absolute best movie ever, its just what the insiders personally were interested in, as people on the inside specifically. I have no doubt that people step out of an Avengers movie going "wow, that was amazing!" a large majority of the time. Its just that "being amazing" isn't an Oscars category.
    I agree that's what they are supposed to be, but there's also a lot of backroom politicking, not to mention some of the judges openly stating they don't watch most of the movies and just vote for what sounds like it should win.

    I also agree that most people walk out of an Avengers movie going "wow, that was amazing!" But I doubt most people walk out of an Avengers movie going, "That should win Best Picture!" Whereas I can say that for Jojo Rabbit. Even if I don't care about the Oscars for all the reasons stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Then maybe I should expand my movie reviews a lot deeper.
    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    How am I severely misjudging in what way?
    See above, with the Avengers example.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-01-10 at 11:36 AM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Well Peelee and everybody else. I do see everybody point now: No matter how great the Superhero movie is: It'll never get nominated for Best Picture but only for Special Effects.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well Peelee and everybody else. I do see everybody point now: No matter how great the Superhero movie is: It'll never get nominated for Best Picture but only for Special Effects.
    That's not what I or anyone else is saying, though. I'm saying that none of the superhero movies that I know of were likely to get the Best Picture award.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's not what I or anyone else is saying, though. I'm saying that none of the superhero movies that I know of were likely to get the Best Picture award.
    Ok. My apologies if I misunderstood.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think mostly he's just severely misjudging what the Oscars are actually about. As our resident second level Expert mentioned, they aren't meant to be some objective measurement of the absolute best movie ever, its just what the insiders personally were interested in, as people on the inside specifically. I have no doubt that people step out of an Avengers movie going "wow, that was amazing!" a large majority of the time. Its just that "being amazing" isn't an Oscars category.
    The level of inside baseball at the Oscars - and various other awards in the film industry - doesn't reach nearly that high. The overlap between industry and non-industry awards groups is quite high, and usually the average film critic's yearly top 10 list will include many if not most of the entries eventually nominated for best picture (and those that aren't will usually be nominated for some other significant category like Best Original Screenplay). The members of the Academy are aware of public perception and the overall popularity of films does matter. Even among 'prestige' films, doing well at the box office and connecting with a popular audience is important. Films like The Shape of Water or Green Book, the two most recent best picture winners, might not have done superhero level money, but they have represented box office successes.

    What is true is that the Academy, and most other awards groups, places a low value on 'entertainment value' in terms of awards criteria, instead favoring 'artistic achievement' or 'visual expression' or other categories. They are trying to identify 'great art' according to various definitions. It's worth noting that it is entirely possible to be both massively popular and considered critically great at the same time. Recent years have seen extremely popular movies nominated, and 2019 actually saw three films that qualified as massive hits: Black Panther, Bohemian Rhapsody, and A Star is Born all get nominated.

    Superhero films, however, are generally fairly lowbrow, especially Marvel movies with their persistent tendency to undercut drama through quips, utilize disposable villains with limited motive, and general lack of seriousness. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, people want to be entertained, but the box office already reasonably approximates 'most entertaining,' so its hardly surprising that awards tend to focus elsewhere.
    Last edited by Mechalich; 2020-01-10 at 01:14 PM.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Yeah. Avengers: Endgame was a good movie. Very enjoyable. It doesn't hold a candle to what I'd call the best movie I've seen this year, Parasite. Same for many years. Arrivals is just a better movie than Deadpool or Civil War. Blade RUnner 2049 is a better movie than Guardians of the Galaxy 2.

    Doesn't make those movies bad. I enjoyed them. But they are not movie of the year good. They are Entertainment. Those other movies are Art.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah. Avengers: Endgame was a good movie. Very enjoyable. It doesn't hold a candle to what I'd call the best movie I've seen this year, Parasite. Same for many years. Arrivals are just a better movie than Deadpool or Civil War. Blade Runner 2049 is a better movie than Guardians of the Galaxy 2.

    Doesn't make those movies bad. I enjoyed them. But they are not a movie of the year good. They are Entertainment. Those other movies are Art.
    I wish Superhero movies are art. Well it's official my adulthood is ruined.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I wish Superhero movies are art. Well it's official my adulthood is ruined.
    Superhero movies are art, they just aren't the kind of art that professional awards bodies or professional critics are looking for, most of the time, and usually they aren't trying to be.

    This is quite common. In some ways every era has it's highly popular artform that generally doesn't reach for critical greatness. In the 1950s and 1960s it was Westerns. Hollywood churned those out by the hundreds, on TV and Film, and only a select few were critically lauded and won awards. If you look at the Best Picture nominees for that period you completely miss how dominant the Western was as a format during that time. Many of the most famous westerns, such as The Searchers - widely seen now as one of the best and most influential films ever made - weren't even nominated.

    A small number of the current crop of superhero films have received significant critical recognition and have won major awards. I mean, it is entirely possible that that following this year's Academy Awards two different actors will have won Oscars for portraying The Joker. And it is likely to be future films in the vein of Joker that achieve glowing critical reception and awards consideration, because they have greater opportunity in that regard compared to the highly formulaic Marvel films.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well, the Oscars really need to change their standards of the criteria of what's considered to be Best Picture material.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Because anyone who watches Superhero movie feels that they deserved to get nominated and win for Best Pictures.
    -I want to point out what this looks like when you take out the specifics:
    -I like this thing A.
    -This thing A does not get the highest awards of this thing B's award ceremony.
    -This thing B needs to change their award criteria.
    <others ask: why?>
    -Because people like me feel thing A deserves to win thing B's award.

    So the people involved with this other thing should change how they go about the other things simply because you have decided that your thing needs to be a part of their thing AND win at their thing (and given that there is only one award per category, by definition ensure that the thing that otherwise would have won loses out), even though it doesn't currently meet the criteria to win.

    So, again, we ask why? Why should your desire for a specific kind of recognition (for a thing you love) trump their desire for recognition for some thing they love in their own prize-awarding ceremony? Particularly since this is their only real source of accolades. Big blockbuster action films don't need to win at the Oscars because they've already made their statement of cultural relevance at the box office (and DVD sales, and streams, and toys, and lunchboxes, and PJs and Halloween costumes and birthday decorations....). Seriously, Avenger: End Game made over a billion dollars worldwide (just as a movie), I'm having a hard time seeing it as the mistreated underdog here. Let the barely-noticed-otherwise arthouse films have their award, rather than the summer blockbusters get their amazing paychecks, worldwide attention, and continuous praise and the arthouse films' award as well for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well Peelee and everybody else. I do see everybody point now: No matter how great the Superhero movie is: It'll never get nominated for Best Picture but only for Special Effects.
    Why do you do this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I wish Superhero movies are art. Well it's official my adulthood is ruined.
    All forms of creative expression are art. That does not mean that art A needs to win art contest B's awards (particularly if art A is massively larger and will swamp people genuinely attempting to do Art-style B's type of art). Beyoncι or Drake or whomever do not need to win the Appalachian Bluegrass Festival's highest awards and Hamilton does not need to win the National community Dinner Theater awards for best show. The Oscars are an award for* achieving a certain level of quality for a certain style of art ('pretentious Oscar-bait film,' as it is often referred to). There is no reason for Blockbusters to either want to become that, nor for the Oscar criteria to change to match what the blockbusters are doing. Certainly not simply because you in particular want that, at least not given that making you happy would make someone else sad.
    *although, even then, it's often not, as it often is a reward for a famous director that acts as an apology for them not getting the Oscar for a previous, much better, film.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    -I want to point out what this looks like when you take out the specifics:
    -I like this thing A.
    -This thing A does not get the highest awards of this thing B's award ceremony.
    -This thing B needs to change their award criteria.
    <others ask: why?>
    -Because people like me feel thing A deserves to win thing B's award.

    So the people involved with this other thing should change how they go about the other things simply because you have decided that your thing needs to be a part of their thing AND win at their thing (and given that there is only one award per category, by definition ensure that the thing that otherwise would have won loses out), even though it doesn't currently meet the criteria to win.

    So, again, we ask why? Why should your desire for a specific kind of recognition (for a thing you love) trump their desire for recognition for some thing they love in their own prize-awarding ceremony? Particularly since this is their only real source of accolades. Big blockbuster action films don't need to win at the Oscars because they've already made their statement of cultural relevance at the box office (and DVD sales, and streams, and toys, and lunchboxes, and PJs and Halloween costumes and birthday decorations....). Seriously, Avenger: End Game made over a billion dollars worldwide (just as a movie), I'm having a hard time seeing it as the mistreated underdog here. Let the barely-noticed-otherwise arthouse films have their award, rather than the summer blockbusters get their amazing paychecks, worldwide attention, and continuous praise and the arthouse films' award as well for some reason.


    Why do you do this?



    All forms of creative expression are art. That does not mean that art A needs to win art contest B's awards (particularly if art A is massively larger and will swamp people genuinely attempting to do Art-style B's type of art). Beyoncι or Drake or whomever do not need to win the Appalachian Bluegrass Festival's highest awards and Hamilton does not need to win the National community Dinner Theater awards for best show. The Oscars are an award for* achieving a certain level of quality for a certain style of art ('pretentious Oscar-bait film,' as it is often referred to). There is no reason for Blockbusters to either want to become that, nor for the Oscar criteria to change to match what the blockbusters are doing. Certainly not simply because you in particular want that, at least not given that making you happy would make someone else sad.
    *although, even then, it's often not, as it often is a reward for a famous director that acts as an apology for them not getting the Oscar for a previous, much better, film.
    You're right about one thing Blockbuster movies don't really need an award for it.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: Superhero Movies Are More Than Just Flashy Special Effects

    I think it might be worthwhile to consider a distinction between art and entertainment in regards to movies. While I don't think there's necessarily always a clear distinction between these two types of movies, I consider it generally true that you can draw a useful distinction for purposes of thinking about movies.

    Entertainment movies are ones meant to be engaged with while they're on the screen and generally aren't intended to have any deeper meaning or message in them other than what can be clearly understood from a naive observation of surface-level events.

    Art movies are ones meant to be engaged with after the movie ends. Where there is an intended meaning or messages that may not be immediately clear and may ultimately involve things like unreliable narrators or metaphors that may be unclear during an initial viewing. They're meant to be analyzed in some fashion or discussed with others to get a fuller understanding.

    I think the goal of superhero movies tends to be much more about the former than that latter. And it seems to me that award shows tend to bias towards the latter variety.
    I write a horror blog in my spare time.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •