Best Weapon to Dual Wield?

[BlueWitch]

Which weapons do you think a TWFer can make the most of?

Personally, I think it's the Sickle, since you can make Trip attacks with them. Sure the damage is mediocre, but Prone is a good condition to inflict.

Bastard Swords are okay but they never struck me as much stronger than Longswords.

Katana's perhaps is a close 2nd?

[Mongobear]

Which weapons do you think a TWFer can make the most of?

Personally, I think it's the Sickle, since you can make Trip attacks with them. Sure the damage is mediocre, but Prone is a good condition to inflict.

Bastard Swords are okay but they never struck me as much stronger than Longswords.

Katana's perhaps is a close 2nd?

Katanas and Bastard Swords are technically the same weapon.

Real Answer--It entirely depends on your build.

Finesse? Probably a Short Sword unless there is an 18-20 crit range equivalent. (Elven lightblade, maybe?)

Pure damage? War Mace from CW. d12 damage, but gives an extra -1 to hit.

Double Weapons, are also a contender, whether the vanilla Orc Double Axe, or Two-Bladed Sword, or some weird exotic abomination like the Thri-Kreen racial weapon, or something else goofy.

For a Trip build? Your sickle is probably pretty good, but it wouldnt be great for someone who just wants to murder stuff.

[Elkad]

Given the to-hit penalties, probably best to stick with a light weapon offhand. And you might want to pick up weapon focus if you can afford it (to offset part of that -2 penalty), so there is another advantage to using two identical weapons.

So dual short swords has a lot of merit at first.

If you can squeeze it by the DM, Sunsword (somewhere in Ravenloft, 3000gp) is a diet version of Sun Blades. You just get the d10 damage, but the price is very right.
Springing for actual Sun Blades (50k gp) is an expensive proposition.


For tripping, I'd go with Kusari-Gama (DMG 144&145) if you can afford the Exotic proficiency. One-handed, light, Reach (and usable adjacent), Trip attacks, Disarm at +2, Finessable. Far better than a sickle, and well worth the feat.

That's a whole pile of feats. Exotic, TWF, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip just to get started. And then stuff you'll also want. Finesse. Combat Reflexes. ITWF. GTWF. Maybe Focus.

But Kusari-Gama is a FAR better use of Exotic proficiency than Bastard Sword.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Depends on your build. Most TWFers will probably want a weapon compatible with the Shadow Blade feat which usually means short sword or dagger.
You definitely want two light weapons and ideally save a feat by making them Feycraft.

Considerations like that aside there really isn't that much difference between the weapons.
The kusari-gama has the notable advantage of being a light reach weapon so it's pretty much the best, but it requires EWP which isn't really worth it most of the time.

Tripping or disarming doesn't work well with TWF anyway and while a weapon with a high crit range is generally best (as long as your enemies aren't immune) the difference isn't that big.
Most of your damage simply comes from feats, stats and class features, so the difference between a d4 and a d6 is mostly negligible.

[BlueWitch]

Given the to-hit penalties, probably best to stick with a light weapon offhand. And you might want to pick up weapon focus if you can afford it (to offset part of that -2 penalty), so there is another advantage to using two identical weapons.

So dual short swords has a lot of merit at first.

If you can squeeze it by the DM, Sunsword (somewhere in Ravenloft, 3000gp) is a diet version of Sun Blades. You just get the d10 damage, but the price is very right.
Springing for actual Sun Blades (50k gp) is an expensive proposition.


For tripping, I'd go with Kusari-Gama (DMG 144&145) if you can afford the Exotic proficiency. One-handed, light, Reach (and usable adjacent), Trip attacks, Disarm at +2, Finessable. Far better than a sickle, and well worth the feat.

That's a whole pile of feats. Exotic, TWF, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip just to get started. And then stuff you'll also want. Finesse. Combat Reflexes. ITWF. GTWF. Maybe Focus.

But Kusari-Gama is a FAR better use of Exotic proficiency than Bastard Sword.

Fam I just looked that Kusarigama thingy up, and MAN that's flavor!
I like it! xD Thanks for pointing it out. It'll be great for something I have planned later. (Mwahaha...)

[Lilapop]

Finesse? Probably a Short Sword unless there is an 18-20 crit range equivalent. (Elven lightblade, maybe?)

Pure damage? War Mace from CW. d12 damage, but gives an extra -1 to hit.

Double Weapons, are also a contender, whether the vanilla Orc Double Axe, or Two-Bladed Sword, or some weird exotic abomination like the Thri-Kreen racial weapon, or something else goofy.

Rapiers don't count as light (another -2 to hit), but they are finessable and can still power attack. Depending on the damage sources you tap into, that can be relevant.

Warmace is -1 to AC, not hit.

For double weapons, Valenar double scimitar (Eberron Campaign Setting) together with Revenant Blade (Player's Guide to Eberron) gives you twohanded strength and power attack on each end. Vanilla double weapons are just a feat for a damage die increase for your offhand compared to longsword+shortsword, and maaaaaaybe if you're running weapon-specific feats you can get them on both at the same time.

[Elkad]

Fam I just looked that Kusarigama thingy up, and MAN that's flavor!
I like it! xD Thanks for pointing it out. It'll be great for something I have planned later. (Mwahaha...)

Yup. If you are squeezed for feats and want Improved Trip first, you can start with sickles and add the Exotic proficiency later. (Also mitigates the DM getting mad at you if he's not used to battlefield control specialists at low levels)

Note that the disarm bonus of +2 only offsets part of the light weapon penalty (-4) for disarm attempts, so they still aren't great at it.

They work fine in a core, or even a "big three" ruleset too. You'd probably want to roll into a Horizon Tripper build in that case.

[Vizzerdrix]

Fire poi, from pathfinder.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Armor Spikes, because you can mainhand a two-handed weapon or use a one-hander and a shield and still make offhand attacks. No feats or other special abilities required besides the standard TWF.

[schreier]

Dragon splits, kukri, unarmed strike, or elven lightblade
All light

Dragon split - good damage, switch Pierce to slash with either larger crit range or higher multiplier (exotic)

Kukri - crit range (martial)

Unarmed - always have

Elven lightblade (crit range) good damage, exotic

Also armor spikes are good

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A pair of very small sand blasters (MMIII p58). They're exotic weapons, but they don't require an attack roll, meaning you don't need weapon proficiencies (no rolls mean that penalties are pointless), and you can also dual-wield them without issue, even without feats to enable it. That -10 to your second attack? Forgetaboutit! Properly enhancing them so that they create their own ammo (such as by adding morphing to a Hank's bow) means you don't have to reload them, either. So just blast as many times as you can manage, and don't bother taking proficiency or TWF feats, because the penalties don't apply. Even if your DM considers them to be two-handers, just make them a size smaller than is appropriate for you and eat the attack roll penalties. Remember, you don't make attack rolls.

And remember, this is an AoE attack, and the size and spread are based on the weapon's range, so boost that range as high as you can so you can TWF multiblast huge groups all at once.

[edit] I wonder if you could blow a breath weapon through a sand blaster... [/edit]



Note: You can make additional TWF attacks without the feats; the penalties are just really, really high. Fortunately, sand blasters sidestep this problem completely.

[Darg]

Note that the disarm bonus of +2 only offsets part of the light weapon penalty (-4) for disarm attempts, so they still aren't great at it.

The benefit of a light weapon is that they can be used in a grapple.

The version from the DMG isn't very logical, so I would say to use the version from Oriental Adventures as it should be a two handed weapon. However if stats are all that matter, then the DMG version is very appealing for TWF building.

Too bad there isn't a one handed reach trip weapon that actually threatens it's reach. A whip dagger properly converted would probably at least threaten 10ft due the barbs along the length

[arkangel111]

Double bladed scimitar with This prestige class.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The benefit of a light weapon is that they can be used in a grapple.

The version from the DMG isn't very logical, so I would say to use the version from Oriental Adventures as it should be a two handed weapon. However if stats are all that matter, then the DMG version is very appealing for TWF building.

Too bad there isn't a one handed reach trip weapon that actually threatens it's reach. A whip dagger properly converted would probably at least threaten 10ft due the barbs along the length

If you get in a grapple as a TWFer you should try to escape, not damage your enemy.
Anything likely to grapple you probably has better BAB, higher Str and a better size bonus than you, so staying in the grapple is a losing proposition.

The kusari-gama isn't a two handed weapon, it's a double weapon (which makes sense) that you can wield one end off one-handed, like any double weapon.
The only difference is that both ends count as light and you can't TWF if you use the reach, so you'll wield two of them.

And the kusari-gama IS a light onehanded reach trip weapon that threatens all squares in your reach. That's the entire point. It's basically a light, one-handed spiked chain, stat-wise. (There's also the spinning sword from SoS).
The reason you don't see it often is that TWF builds are usually dex-based, which doesn't work well with the standard tactics of lockdown builds, and also feat intensive - which a tripper is too.
So even people who could use it generally can't spare a feat to do so.

[Elkad]

If you get in a grapple as a TWFer you should try to kill your opponent, not escape.
Anything likely to grapple you probably has better BAB, higher Str and a better size bonus than you, so wasting actions trying to escape is a losing proposition.

FTFY.

Well, unless you have an actual escape option (translocation, etc).
If it tries to swallow you, even better. Your light weapons are in hand, you can kill it from the inside, where it's AC is likely much lower.

[sleepyphoenixx]

FTFY.

Well, unless you have an actual escape option (translocation, etc).
If it tries to swallow you, even better. Your light weapons are in hand, you can kill it from the inside, where it's AC is likely much lower.

You can't TWF while grappling. You also can't sneak attack (because grappling explicitly only removes dex to ac for creatures not in the grapple), which hits most TWF builds.
You're basically relying on your weapons base damage. Sure, you can attack if you don't have an escape method. It probably just won't make a real difference.

Quite frankly if you haven't invested into Escape Artist or another method of escape that doesn't rely on you winning a grapple check your only hope is that your party kills it before it kills you.

[Max Caysey]

Which weapons do you think a TWFer can make the most of?

Personally, I think it's the Sickle, since you can make Trip attacks with them. Sure the damage is mediocre, but Prone is a good condition to inflict.

Bastard Swords are okay but they never struck me as much stronger than Longswords.

Katana's perhaps is a close 2nd?

Damage wise, great sword is the best!

[Anthrowhale]

Dragonsplits (MMIV) seem worth mentioning in more detail, if your goal is damage.

They are a one-handed exotic weapon that counts as light for Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Since they are exotic weapons, they qualify for "Uncanny Blow" from an Exotic Weapon Master, meaning they inflict x2 power attack damage.
Add in pounce (via any of many methods) and a method to make these touch attacks (several methods), and you can crank damage up significantly.

[animewatcha]

There was an 1 handed exotic weapon in savage species. Can't remember any specific attributes to it, but the exotic part of it was definately 2d6 and bludgeoning plus piercing damage. Take the over-sized two weapon fighting feat and wield two of them. If you have 2 feats to spare for any reason, I believe champions of ruin had 2 feats ( one for each damage type ) which each time after the first in a round you deal an extra d6 ( so B+P would mean 2d6 extra damage after the first hit ). So first attack would be 2d6, second attack 4d6.

[Anthrowhale]

There was an 1 handed exotic weapon in savage species. Can't remember any specific attributes to it, but the exotic part of it was definately 2d6 and bludgeoning plus piercing damage. Take the over-sized two weapon fighting feat and wield two of them. If you have 2 feats to spare for any reason, I believe champions of ruin had 2 feats ( one for each damage type ) which each time after the first in a round you deal an extra d6 ( so B+P would mean 2d6 extra damage after the first hit ). So first attack would be 2d6, second attack 4d6.

A 'Barbed Chain' apparently. However, from the picture it looks difficult to wield if you aren't a Kyton. If you are, then definitely look into greater mighty wallop.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For pure Rule of Cool, it's hard to beat hook swords + the Flying Tiger feat. You remember Jet, from Avatar the last Airbender? How he could link his swords together for added range? This lets you do that, and switch back and forth as a free action.

EDIT: I'm also a big fan of thrown weapons for TWF. My current character uses dual throwing axes, and Azoth from my extended sig used TWF thrown sais. Oh, and the Siege Tower made it up to 22 thrown daggers per round by level 8.

[Darg]

The kusari-gama isn't a two handed weapon, it's a double weapon (which makes sense) that you can wield one end off one-handed, like any double weapon.
The only difference is that both ends count as light and you can't TWF if you use the reach, so you'll wield two of them.

And the kusari-gama IS a light onehanded reach trip weapon that threatens all squares in your reach. That's the entire point. It's basically a light, one-handed spiked chain, stat-wise. (There's also the spinning sword from SoS).
The reason you don't see it often is that TWF builds are usually dex-based, which doesn't work well with the standard tactics of lockdown builds, and also feat intensive - which a tripper is too.
So even people who could use it generally can't spare a feat to do so.

A double weapon is wielded with 2 hands. It is physically impossible to actually wield a kusari gama properly with just 1 hand because you can't control the weight tied or chained to the other end of the kama which is where it gets the reach from in the first place. In 3.5 the weapon entry in the DMG improperly simulates the weapon.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A double weapon is wielded with 2 hands. It is physically impossible to actually wield a kusari gama properly with just 1 hand because you can't control the weight tied or chained to the other end of the kama which is where it gets the reach from in the first place. In 3.5 the weapon entry in the DMG improperly simulates the weapon.

While probably true (i'm not a ninja so my knowledge of kusari gama fighting is limited) that doesn't change the fact it works that way in 3.5.
It's hardly the only case of something working a little differently from reality.

So yeah, you can TWF with two kusari gama.
Not that you'll get much out of it besides the reach, because as i said generally TWF builds don't have the stats or feats to spare to make good trippers and disarming with a light one-handed weapon and non-full BAB is bound to fail more often than not, especially against enemies you actually want to disarm.