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2020-01-21, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Raising the Dead against their will
A PHB (page 153) says that a soul cannot be returned to life unwillingly, and it "knows name, alignment and patron deity" of the caster.
Can this be somehow circumvented with magic?
E.g. would a spell or a class feature that renders alignment undetectable foil this knowledge? Would anti-divination spells work against it?
Or perhaps is there a revivification spell that can return someone to life (or intelligent unlife?) unwillingly?
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2020-01-21, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
This seems to be a pretty hard rule to get around, even salient divine abilities can't return a creature to life if the creature doesn't want to return. I suspect we'd have to find a badly worded and or third party ability with which to do so.
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2020-01-21, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Intelligent Unlife is doable with various undead creation spells.
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2020-01-21, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Not that I know of without going third party. I do recall a major artifact in one of the Bastion Press books that can do this, but that is pretty far off the beaten path, even for a lenient DM.
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2020-01-21, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Bring them back as undead, control them, order them to accept the resurrection when you cast it on them
Last edited by Crake; 2020-01-21 at 03:46 PM.
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2020-01-21, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
You can at least fool the alignment part with the Master of Masks prestige class. Those masks may not be all that mechanically impressive for the most part, but they automatically fool any alignment detection method.
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2020-01-21, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Would Vecna-Blooded help?
I also believe there's an utterance that hides your name from others?My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2020-01-21, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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- Wyoming
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
"You know it's all fake right?"
"...yeah, but it makes me feel better."
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2020-01-21, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
It's easier to get around than you might think; just find a friendly cleric of the appropriate alignment/deity and mind control/coerce them to cast the rez for you (supply a scroll if necessary). All three of the identifiers the soul gets will still ping positive and they should accept. In this case, rather than raise the unwilling, you're fooling them into being willing.
You'd have to destroy the undead first, which will end any control you've placed on them. You're not controlling their soul in any event, which is either still in the afterlife (mindless undead) or merely trapped in the thing you've created (intelligent undead.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-01-21, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
It seems to me that the way to do this would be to start by calling the individual in question with planar binding, use that spell to make them agree, and then case raise dead/resurrection
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2020-01-21, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
It's easy. Simply lift the body and you have raised the dead. Alternatively, levitate will work.
Last edited by Calthropstu; 2020-01-21 at 06:37 PM.
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2020-01-21, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- Perth, West Australia
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Last edited by Saintheart; 2020-01-21 at 09:52 PM.
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2020-01-21, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Meh. Once you have access to divination spells that can find creatures (lots of them) and plane shift, just go to the creature's afterlife, find its soul using divination, and knock it out. Unconscious creatures are considered automatically willing, so it won't have a choice but to come back, if you get past its native defenses (such as SR).
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-01-21 at 10:09 PM.
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2020-01-21, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2020-01-21, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Neither of these work. A petitioner is not a soul; nothing you do to the petitioner will persist when it stops being one.
You can certainly bind, kidnap, or otherwise harm a petitioner (provided you can get to it) but a 2 HD outsider with next to no abilities probably isn't what the OP had in mind.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2020-01-21, 11:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
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2020-01-22, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
But it does; a petitioner is a soul that's packaged into something (a 2HD outsider in this case), just like an undead is a soul packaged into something. Or a mortal creature for that matter is a soul packaged into something.
The idea is that, all your typical tricks for coercing a creature, are actually coercing the package that the soul is in, rather than the soul itself - because the package is where the characteristics of a creature (like creature type and HD) come from.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-01-22, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2020-01-22, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2018
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Which spells would allow for the undead to retain memories and personality of the character?
I'm fine with them losing class levels and etc (in fact that may be preferable), but I;m very much not sure if, say, Create Undead-raised Ghoul would have anything in common with the raised character, other than using the same body.
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2020-01-22, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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2020-01-22, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
This.
I would've responded much earlier, but I've been having problems with this site since yesterday afternoon.
So, yeah. My point stands. Just find the petitioner (or whatever else the soul incarnated as) and knock it unconscious. You still have to deal with SR or other defenses (if any), but as creepy as the fridge logic is, unconscious critters are considered "willing" and thus can't actively resist being brought back.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-01-22 at 10:51 AM.
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2020-01-22, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
But only particularly devoted servants of specific gods become petitioners, and even then "a few may remain disembodied spirits". So outside of a setting like FR where being an evangelist is compulsory, it's not a universal method. Messing with the afterlife is also pretty likely to get wrath brought down on you, so the trickery method is still preferable when possible.
Last edited by Elves; 2020-01-22 at 02:02 PM.
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2020-01-22, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Yes and no. Here's what Complete Divine has to say:
Originally Posted by Complete Divine, Activities in the Afterlife
1) Becoming a petitioner involves "getting a body" - that would be the "package" I was referring to above - which means that most souls don't have those by default.
2) The soul must become a petitioner - i.e. an outsider creature - before it can respond to conjurations. "Unpackaged" souls can't do that, so the "bind and coerce" tactic does not work on them.
4) Respond to resurrection magic is a separate activity from becoming a petitioner, and it is explicitly the short-term solution. In other words, they generally don't become petitioners until they've been there a while - out of range of resurrection magic I'd wager. For some petitioners this is more explicit than others, like the ones being tortured down in Hell, where FC2 instructs you to retire the character because it can no longer be raised at all.
In short, the ones that don't get a body are not creatures, which renders any "bind them" and "knock them out" plans moot.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-01-22, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Where's the actual RAW that states that a petitioner is the soul incarnate, and controlling the petitioner is a direct channel to controlling teh soul in a way unlike controlling their pre-death mortal form, dead remains, or undead shell?
An equally valid interpretation would appear to be that because the outer planes are made up of "elemental idea", they are uniquely shapeable by souls that are mentally attuned to the alignment of that plane. As such, petitioners are formed when a particularly powerful soul has enough self-awareness and smooth enough passage to the outer plane to shape a body of sorts for itself out of the plane-stuff that matches their alignment.
Checking the definition of an outsider, there isn't even anything specifically calling out the idea that their body and soul are not distinct. Tieflings and other planetouched seem to be prime examples of outsiders that do have bodies distinct from their souls (that is, they die, leave a corpse behind, spells that contact dead people work when they are dead, and they can be resurrected).
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2020-01-22, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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2020-01-22, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2020-01-22, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
The Hyperconscious power psianimate dead brings 'em back temporarily (so long as you have power points left), and they have all their memories and personality intact (as they have all their mental ability scores), although they don't keep all their abilities. [Ex] and [Na], yeah, but nothing magical.
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-01-22 at 04:02 PM.
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2020-01-22, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Raising the Dead against their will
Last edited by Thurbane; 2020-01-22 at 03:37 PM.
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2020-01-22, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2020-01-22, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Raising the Dead against their will
From the SRD
"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit""If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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