Hexblade 1 / Paladin X Question

[NecessaryWeevil]

Hi, I'd like to play a Scourge or Fallen Aasimar Redemption Paladin. I've recently been wondering about a 1-level dip into Hexblade for CHA to attack rolls. But, given that the point of this dip is to enable you to relatively dump STR and DEX, can you survive as a frontline combatant with low scores in both attributes? Worried about grapples, DEX saves, etc....
Thanks!

[alchahest]

Depends entirely on your DM. If he plays white room, nothing beyond basic attacks and flat ground... you'll be fine!

[RogueJK]

Traditional STR Paladins will generally have a low DEX save anyway, until they hit Level 6 and get +CHA to all saves. I wouldn't be all that concerned about that aspect.

But even on a Hexadin, you'll want either a moderate STR and Athletics proficiency or a moderate DEX and Acrobatics proficiency. Of the two, DEX would be a better choice, since you'll likely be wearing Medium Armor anyway, and it'll boost your DEX saves and Initiative to boot.


If you build it as Medium Armor Hexblade1/PaladinX starting Hexblade, it'd look something like this (with Standard Array):

Scourge Aasimar
STR 10 (or 8)
DEX 14
CON 13+1
INT 8 (or 10)
WIS 12
CHA 15+2

ASIs would be something like +2 CHA, +1 CHA/+1 CON, then Resilient CON


Or if you build it as a Heavy Armor user starting Paladin 1 > Paladin1/Hexblade1> PaladinX/Hexblade1, it'd look like this:

Fallen Aasimar
STR 14+1
DEX 10 (or 8)
CON 13
INT 8 (or 10)
WIS 12
CHA 15+2

ASIs would be something like +1 CHA/+1 CON, +2 CHA, then Resilient STR.


Unless you're dead-set on Heavy Armor, the former is more optimal than the latter. You'll have a higher CON, better positioning to take Resilient CON to maintain Concentration, and you won't have to suffer through 1st Level with a +2 STR melee fighter. In exchange, your AC will only be 1 point lower with Medium Armor than Heavy Armor.

[Rara1212]

Remember, you always need 13str & cha to multiclass in OR out of paladin.

[JackPhoenix]

If you build it as Medium Armor Hexblade1/PaladinX starting Hexblade, it'd look something like this (with Standard Array):

Scourge Aasimar
STR 10 (or 8)

Not an option. You'll need Str at least 13 to multiclass with paladin.

[RogueJK]

Remember, you always need 13str & cha to multiclass in OR out of paladin.

Excellent point that I overlooked.

So a Medium Armor Hexblade1/PaladinX starting Hexblade would need to look something like this (with Standard Array):

Scourge Aasimar
STR 13
DEX 14
CON 12+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2

ASIs would be something like +1 CHA/+1 STR, followed by Resilient CON then +2 CHA (or vice-versa).

Or

Fallen Aasimar
STR 12+1
DEX 13
CON 14+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2

ASIs would be something like +1 CHA/+1 DEX, followed by Resilient CON then +2 CHA (or vice-versa).


Heavy Armor Fallen Aasimar would remain the same as above.

[Sception]

If you're taking this dip, then you'll also probably want the warcaster feat, so that you can cast Shield while wearing a shield, and cast booming blade as an opportunity attack. If you're going to have warcaster anyway, then the need for resilient is greatly diminished.

Additionally, do not short change constitution. On a melee character a +2 bonus should be the minimum. +3 would be better, but is hard to reach with your other stat requirements.

Unless you're playing a non-variant human, half elf, or other race similarly blessed with an overabundance of stat bonuses, you're probably better off wearing heavy armor, as the 15 strength needed to wear plate is generally a smaller investment in point buy than getting to both strength 13 to multiclass and dex 14 for medium armor at the same time.

Either way, if you got at least +2 strength or dex then it might be better to delay the hexblade dip until after you've grabbed warcaster, extra attack, aura of protection, class aura, and +2 cha, dipping into hexblade at level 9, or level 10 if 3rd level paladin spells are especially important to your build (see conquerors and Fear).

So something like:

Half elf standard array, medium armor
s13 d14 c14 i8 w10 h17
Pal 1-8, grabbing warcaster and elven accuracy, then war1, then any combination of pal, war, sor, or brd after. If planning to multi into sorcerer later, maybe even take sorcerer at level 1 for con proficiency.

Or

Fallen or scourge assimar, point buy, heavy armor
s15 d10 c14 i10 w10 h16
Pal 1-8, grabbing warcaster and +2 cha, then warlock dip, then any combination of paladin, warlock, sorcerer, and/or bard levels for the rest. Stats chosen to avoid penalties for that divinely blessed feel, but more optimal if you dump int and/or wis to pump dex to 12, or get strength or con to 16 depending on subrace choice. If your DM allows the unearthed arcana skill feats (most won't), then getting cha to 17 and replacing the +2 cha asi with the deception, persuasion, or intimidation feats is also an option, but again most DMs don't allow them and without them there really aren't any good half cha feats for non-elves.


It's worth pointing out that if you're going for damage, the warcaster dip probably isn't the best option unless you're an oath breaker and/or plan on taking warlock at least to level 3 for blade pact. Yeah, hexblade's curse helps you fish for crits to smite on, especially in a half elf build with elven accuracy, but if you take less than three levels of warlock the dip will restrict you to one handed weapons, when great weapon master is the biggest way to add damage to a melee character. And if you are taking three or more levels, well at that point it's not so much a dip as a proper multiclass, one that's starting to crowd significant paladin features & other multiclass options out of your build.

Basically, a one to two level hexblade dip is less attractive for damage oriented paladins who spend their spell slots smiting and don't really mind letting their charisma lag behind a bit, and more atractive for tanking and support paladins who do cast spells and who value maximizing their aura of protection over killing enemies faster. This sort of paladin build also tends to cast more concentration spells, and thus particularly values the warcaster feat plus Shield spell combination.



If you do want a damage oriented hexadin, try:

Half elf (drow variant), standard array, wearing heavy armor & wielding a spear two handed
s15 d12 c14 i8 w10 h17 - can switch dex, int, and wis around as desired for role play.

Paladin 1-5, oath breaker or vengeance, defense style, polearm master, extra attack

Warlock 1-4, hexblade, shield, devil's sight, darkness, blade pact, switch to glaive, improved pact weapon, elven accuracy

Paladin 6-13, auras, great weapon master, improved divine smite, +2 charisma, improved find steed

Warlock 5-7, shadow of moil as your capstone

Basic plan is to get advantage via oath (if vengeance), darkness/devil's sight, or just shoving prone with your first attack - so be sure to grab athletics proficiency, this is why a strength leaning heavy armor build is preferred over a dex leaning medium armor build - to fish for crits with elven accuracy, using polearm master for an extra attempt per round. When you do crit against a tough enemy, smite for big damage. Against particularly tough foes, use hexblade's curse for the expanded crit range. Later on you'll have great weapon master, use it for +10 damage whenever you have advantage and a stronger bonus attack whenever you crit with a standard attack.

There are more damaging melee builds, including crit fishers, but this one is pretty functional, and in particular makes prominant use of the paladin/hexblade combo. Long term oath breaker is preferred for the flat damage boost to all your melee attacks, plus extra damage from undead minions, but vengeance works fine in games where oath breaker isn't allowed or isn't advisable due to an abundance of enemy fiends or undead. Vengeance is especially nice at early levels before darkness/devil's sight comes online, or in crowded combats where darkness can disrupt your allies as much as your enemies.

If the darkness in a crowded combat thing is a major problem for your party, then move the last three levels of warlock earlier in the progression to let you switch to shadow of moil at level 12 instead of level 20. You'll probably want to take an extra level of warlock in that case so you don't delay your asi progression, which will cost you improved divine steed, but you'll be able to grab an extra feat at 20 then. Maybe inspiring leader or alert or lucky.



Again, though, in general I think tanky and support oriented paladins get more out of the multiclass, especially if you only plan to take a single level. It's particularly good for conquerors who rely on a lot of save based spells and abilities to inflict the frightened condition, and thus prioritize maxing their charisma over almost anything else - see the wall of fear thread for more discussion there.

[CheddarChampion]

So a frontline has to worry about:
AC
HP
Concentration
Dex saves
Grappling
In about that order of importance. YMMV and people might disagree.

13 Str or 14 Dex and a shield have AC covered. Defensive Fighting Style, 15 Str, and spells can help further.
14 Con plus good HD on a Paladin have HP covered. Spells and Lay on Hands can help further.
14 Con plus aura of protection has concentration covered. Warcaster and Resilient can help further. Bless will help itself.
14 Dex and Aura of Protection has Dex saves covered. Alternatively, Aura of Warding has it covered. Shield Master, Bless, and Resilient can help further.
14 Str plus Athletics proficiency or 14 Dex plus Acrobatics proficiency have grappling covered. You can also Hex a target to give them disadvantage on Str checks (and therefore grappling checks).

So one build might be a Half Elf Ancients Paladin for 13/14/14/10/11/16, taking Warcaster and boosting Cha. Or the same with 15/12/14/10/10/16, or 15/10/14/10/10/17 to get Elven Accuracy.

[Aimeryan]

Hi, I'd like to play a Scourge or Fallen Aasimar Redemption Paladin. I've recently been wondering about a 1-level dip into Hexblade for CHA to attack rolls. But, given that the point of this dip is to enable you to relatively dump STR and DEX, can you survive as a frontline combatant with low scores in both attributes? Worried about grapples, DEX saves, etc....
Thanks!

It is worth noting that the strength-setting items are very easy to get in any campaign that uses magic items; the Gauntlets of Ogre Power are only uncommon (about 400gp to buy, or a low-level quest reward/loot). This allows you to dump Strength (13 min., if multiclassing - you'll be 10ft slower in Heavy Armour until you get a mount or the Gauntlets), or at least not put any ASIs into it. You'll usually get them before Tier 2 play.

If such items are not likely then a Hexblade dip is great for allowing you to boost Cha for all your needs, instead. Dex saves are covered by the aura. Grapples are a weakness, however, monsters without grapple attached to their attacks will rarely give up their action to just grapple (players only need to replace one of their attacks, so it is far less costly). Minions could, to stop you getting to a boss, but that is a weakness for Paladins in general given the lack of AOE - you rely on teammates for dealing with that, or go Divine Soul Sorcadin for Spiritual Guardians.

[Theaitetos]

If you take Scourge Aasimar, keep in mind that the racial ability Radiant Consumption triggers concentration checks each round.

If the darkness in a crowded combat thing is a major problem for your party

A good trick is to cast Darkness not on an area but on an object (held by your melee ally), that the ally can easily cover on his own turn. That way the ally can deactivate/activate the Darkness on his turn.

[Sception]

IA good trick is to cast Darkness not on an area but on an object (held by your melee ally), that the ally can easily cover on his own turn. That way the ally can deactivate/activate the Darkness on his turn.

The problem with this is that most DMs will call covering or uncovering the item an object interaction, such that the holder could either cover or uncover the item on their turn, but not both. Similar to drawing & stowing your weapon.

In general, shrouding your allies in darkness isn't that costly - enemies still don't get to hide for free and allies attacking them or being attacked by them will have both advantage and disadvantage, cancelling each other out. But if the ally thought they were going to get advantage otherwise, or force disadvantage on the enemy otherwise, then it becomes a problem. Or if your allies have strong opportunity attacks, or were relying on opportunity attacks to keep melee enemies away from your squishies, or if your casters have spells that require them to see their target, etc. In such situations, you can split your movement to move in, attack, and pull out to not cover as much of the map in darkness when it isn't your turn.

In general it's not really much of a problem, but if it is then push on to shadow of moil earlier.

[Theaitetos]

The problem with this is that most DMs will call covering or uncovering the item an object interaction, such that the holder could either cover or uncover the item on their turn, but not both. Similar to drawing & stowing your weapon.

I don't think so. Unless you have zero creativity to pull it off, it can't be ruled an object interaction. Ever tried a tongue piercing? Just open your mouth and it gets dark, close it and all's back to normal!

[Sigreid]

A side suggestion would be go hexblade 2. The reason for this is just so you can get the agonizing blast invocation so your ranged attacks are covered.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't think so. Unless you have zero creativity to pull it off, it can't be ruled an object interaction. Ever tried a tongue piercing? Just open your mouth and it gets dark, close it and all's back to normal!

Even assuming the GM doesn't hit you with the DMG and tells you no, good luck applying a piercing in the dark in the 10 minutes the spell will last.

[Theaitetos]

Even assuming the GM doesn't hit you with the DMG and tells you no, good luck applying a piercing in the dark in the 10 minutes the spell will last.

I assume you never did that? Seriously, everyone who has had a piercing for a while knows how to move/attach/remove/change it without looking; it's not different than putting in earrings, fastening a belt, changing gears, … that's something you pick up as manual memory.

[djreynolds]

Hi, I'd like to play a Scourge or Fallen Aasimar Redemption Paladin. I've recently been wondering about a 1-level dip into Hexblade for CHA to attack rolls. But, given that the point of this dip is to enable you to relatively dump STR and DEX, can you survive as a frontline combatant with low scores in both attributes? Worried about grapples, DEX saves, etc....
Thanks!

You could if you go 4 levels of warlock and get some invocations, like darkness and devils sight and just drop this when needed.

Honestly, a 13 in strength and 14 in dex are easy to obtain. Get proficiency in acrobatics. Dump intelligence.