Help me assign LA to yet another new race (3 out of 4)

[heavyfuel]

After posting all 4 races at once and getting no replies, I'm trying this approach of posting 1 race at time, so here's the third one.

Spoiler: Sky Aspect

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+2 Str, +2 Wis

Medium size: As medium size, Aspects gain no bonuses or penalties based on their size.

Speed: 30ft land speed, 30ft fly speed (Average maneuverability). Note that winged creatures carrying more than light load cannot fly.

Racial Hit Dice: An Aspect has two levels of Outsider, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of +3 to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.

Racial Skills: An Aspect's Outsider levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (8 + Int modifier).

Racial Feat: An Aspect’s Outsider levels give it one feat.

Native Outsiders - Aspects are Outsiders with the [Native] subtype.

Low-light vision

Skills: A Sky Aspect’s wings grant her +4 racial bonus to Tumble and Balance checks made on land, as well as a +8 racial bonus on Jump and Climb checks. Meanwhile, her eyes grant her +4 racial bonus to Spot checks.

Slow Fall (Ex): As long as her wings are unbound, a Sky Aspect can always slow down her falls much like a Feather Fall spell. This ability requires no action on the part of the Sky Aspect.

Lord of the sky (Sp): A Sky Aspect’s connection with the winds allow her to use the following Spell-like Abilities. Her caster level for them is equal to her character level.
1/day Updraft (Spell compendium), 2/day Gust of Wind

Unusual body type: Because of their wings, armor and clothing always has to be adapted for them, which costs as much as the base price of the armor or clothing.

Spoiler: The logic behind the Sky Aspect

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The race is built to be an archer, if not for the Ability score bonuses. I really didn’t want to give them +2 Dex, especially since they’re not supposed to be graceful fliers, because it would make them even more unbeatable as archers. They still work wonders with throwing weapons, and throwing builds need all the help they can get, so I went for +2 Str instead.

Last time I posted, someone commented that flight isn’t good for a race because it can be acquired with Shape Soulmeld: Airstep Sandals. Well, Airstep Sandals isn’t at will flight by any measure. It’s super restricted, in fact. I view flying more as undispellable Overland Flight, which is awesome.

There’s no way to not compare this race to raptorans, which have no RHD. So, for 2 (pretty good) RHD, you get at will flight from ECL 3 instead of ECL 10. A full 7 levels earlier. Also +4 ability score bonuses and some decent spell-like abilities that can very well save your butt. Honestly, I’d say it’s more than fair, especially since Outsider HD is very nice.

So, what LA should this race get? Again, remember that it already has RHD.

For anyone wishing to comment on the second post, here's the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-(2-out-of-4)

Unfortunately the first post has already been archived

So yeah... PEACH![/QUOTE]

[rferries]

Right flight means LA+1 minimum, and I could see an argument for LA+2 if buyoff is allowed.

[heavyfuel]

Right flight means LA+1 minimum, and I could see an argument for LA+2 if buyoff is allowed.

Would nerfing the slow fall be enough that you'd be more comfortable with a +1 (since that's what I'm aiming at)?

Maybe instead of full on slow fall, it reducing the fall distance by 10ft per level.

[GrayDeath]

LA+1 at most.
It already has (good, granted, but still) 2 racial HD. So even if one does never consider any caster with this class, you will be behind quite a bit concerning class features.

Personally, I`d go for no LA in "normal" Games with lots of high powered classes, and LA +1 in lower OP Games.

The only case for LA + for me would be really low OP AND buypff, but thats a set of circumstances youc an hardly call "majority".

[BasilicaNero]

For comparison:

In Savage Species (p214) there is a section for Anthropomorphic Animals as characters. In that list only five have automatic Fly speeds:

Type (Size) - Speed Land/Fly(quality) - RHD - LA - Ability Bonus & Natural Armor

Bat (Small) - Land 5/Fly 20 (average) - 1d8 - LA +0 - Str -4, Wis +6, Cha -2

Eagle (Med) - Land 10/Fly 40 (poor) - 2d8 - LA +1 - Str +2, Dex +2, Con+2, Wis +6, Nat AC +1

Hawk (Small) - Land 10/Fly 30 (poor) - 1d8 - LA +2 - Dex +4, Wis +6, Nat AC +2

Owl (Small) - Land 10/Fly 20 (poor) - 1d8 - LA +1 - Dex +4, Wis +6, Cha -2, Nat AC +2

Raven (Small)- Land 10/Fly 30 (poor) - 1d8 - LA +0 - Str -6, Dex +2, Wis +4, Cha -4

You are proposing:

SkyAspect(Med)-Land30/Fly 30(average)- 2d8 - LA +1 - Str +2, Wis +2


Based on these it seems like it should be a LA +2 as there is no downside to offset the flying and 2 RHD.

The Hawk gets +2 LA and it it still has the downsides of its small size (well, sometimes a downside) and 10 move speed on land. The Eagle is the best with 2 RHD, Medium race, all positive bonuses, with only +1 LA but it still has the diminished land speed to offset.

Also these templates also get a few bonuses based on their base creature (claws, Spot checks, etc.) but as far as I know not as good when compared to the other features you are giving your race (boost to BAB, saving throws, Lord of the Sky, Auto FeatherFall, etc.)

I could be wrong but I feel like all this tips it into LA +2 category. Maybe Land 20/Fly 30(poor) would tone it down a bit?

Your suggestion of nerfing the Auto Feather Fall has merit as well, and it scaling with level is nice.

I really like the feel and flavor of it though: I hope you have lots of fun with it however you end up finishing it!

[heavyfuel]

LA+1 at most.
It already has (good, granted, but still) 2 racial HD. So even if one does never consider any caster with this class, you will be behind quite a bit concerning class features.

Personally, I`d go for no LA in "normal" Games with lots of high powered classes, and LA +1 in lower OP Games.

The only case for LA + for me would be really low OP AND buypff, but thats a set of circumstances youc an hardly call "majority".

Buyoff is available, yes. I have no idea what classes the players will be playing, but they tend to stay away from Tier 1s

For comparison:

In Savage Species (p214) there is a section for Anthropomorphic Animals as characters. In that list only five have automatic Fly speeds:

Type (Size) - Speed Land/Fly(quality) - RHD - LA - Ability Bonus & Natural Armor

Bat (Small) - Land 5/Fly 20 (average) - 1d8 - LA +0 - Str -4, Wis +6, Cha -2

Eagle (Med) - Land 10/Fly 40 (poor) - 2d8 - LA +1 - Str +2, Dex +2, Con+2, Wis +6, Nat AC +1

Hawk (Small) - Land 10/Fly 30 (poor) - 1d8 - LA +2 - Dex +4, Wis +6, Nat AC +2

Owl (Small) - Land 10/Fly 20 (poor) - 1d8 - LA +1 - Dex +4, Wis +6, Cha -2, Nat AC +2

Raven (Small)- Land 10/Fly 30 (poor) - 1d8 - LA +0 - Str -6, Dex +2, Wis +4, Cha -4

You are proposing:

SkyAspect(Med)-Land30/Fly 30(average)- 2d8 - LA +1 - Str +2, Wis +2


Based on these it seems like it should be a LA +2 as there is no downside to offset the flying and 2 RHD.

The Hawk gets +2 LA and it it still has the downsides of its small size (well, sometimes a downside) and 10 move speed on land. The Eagle is the best with 2 RHD, Medium race, all positive bonuses, with only +1 LA but it still has the diminished land speed to offset.

Also these templates also get a few bonuses based on their base creature (claws, Spot checks, etc.) but as far as I know not as good when compared to the other features you are giving your race (boost to BAB, saving throws, Lord of the Sky, Auto FeatherFall, etc.)

I could be wrong but I feel like all this tips it into LA +2 category. Maybe Land 20/Fly 30(poor) would tone it down a bit?

Your suggestion of nerfing the Auto Feather Fall has merit as well, and it scaling with level is nice.

I really like the feel and flavor of it though: I hope you have lots of fun with it however you end up finishing it!

Loving the comparisons, lol!

It's a good point that these races are usually more limited in the Land Speed department. I think I'll go with the reduction to 20ft, while adjusting the racial bonus to Jump to compensate.