What happens if I take off the ring of wizardry?

[Frosty]

Ok, so a Ring of Wizardry 1 lets me memorize 4 more level 1 spells a day. If I wear the ring, prepare the extra spells, and then take the ring off, what happens?

[Collin152]

Ok, so a Ring of Wizardry 1 lets me memorize 4 more level 1 spells a day. If I wear the ring, prepare the extra spells, and then take the ring off, what happens?

You've memorized them, and can therefore cast them.
If something else affectedon your memorized spells, like a pearl of power, I'd presonally rule against refilling those slots without the ring on.

[tyckspoon]

I think you lose the spells, just like you would if you suffered enough stat damage to make you lose bonus slots. I'm not sure what happens if you then put the ring back on; the most probable are you have the slots prepared but they're empty (so you can fill them with a 15-minute study session) or the slots aren't readied until the next time you wear the ring through a refresh.

[drengnikrafe]

I believe this should be looked at from an intragame perspective, instead of a metagame one for the answer (but then again, my DM loves house rules, so...).

You wake up one morning, and sit down with your spellbook. You spend about an hour (if memory serves) staring intently at your spellbook, and deciding what could be useful today, and what wouldn't be (you're wearing the ring at this point), and then studying to the point that you finally have all but the very final piece of the complex spell cast, and you know the exact motions and words with which you may finish it (because in my theory of magic, a spell takes a long, drawn out ritual to cast for mages, so they do all but the final step, and so it only takes them a standard action to alter reality in some way). As you are traveling later that day, your hand feels very odd, so you remove your ring. Dispite the shock you go through, do you truely belive that with all your focus that morning that you would totally forget that you had done such rituals? I think not! I would say that you keep your spells, but they no longer technically fill slots. If I were DMing that game and I were feeling generous, you'd keep your spells, and if I was feeling like a jerk, I'd make the spells only partially effective, because you did go through something of shock in losing that free space in your mind.

I say you keep them, if you decided against reading my whole essay.

[Frosty]

Perhaps with a ruling that one character can't benefit from more than 2 rings of wizardry per day?

[drengnikrafe]

I believe you are only permitted to wear two rings at any given time, regardless of what they are. And if you remove the Ring then you lose the slots, but the spells stay there. So, if you put the ring back on afterwards, then the spells you have already prepared would refill the new slots, and the same ring of wizardry could not grant new spells slots (as in, you put on the ring, prepare spells, take off ring, cast spells, put back on ring and gain new spell slots? No way). Oh, wait, I see what you're saying. I'd say that if you put on a new ring, it would fill the slots that the old ring left behind, so you'd have to be wearing 2 RoW at the same time to get your 8 spell slots, and since you can't use more then 2 rings at the same time (unless I'm thinking of something else, and getting my thoughts all up in a tangle), that would be the maximum, yes.

[Corsec1337]

I'm pretty sure you lose the bonus spells... Or else why wouldn't every wizard wear the ring when they learn there spells for the day?

I've always looked at wizard spellcasting as you only have so much potential to cast spells per day, which the ring aides in. You read the book to refreash on how to actully cast the spells. This is why if you don't cast the spell you still technically "know" how to cast it the next day after you sleep.

[Bandededed]

I also think you would lose the spells, even from an ingame standpoint;

You go through all the effort to memorize spells, including spells that you can only prepare and memorize because you are wearing the ring of wizardry that has expanded your mind enough to do so.

Then you take it off.

Suddenly, your mind shrinks back to where it was originally. You no longer have room in your compressed psyche to hold those spells, and thus they vanish.

Upon replacing the ring on your finger, your mind will re-expand. Since the knowledge you had before removing the ring has already been lost, those spell slots are also empty. You can replace those lost spells or fill in others; it doesn't really matter.

However, if you were to cast some of those spells before taking it off and putting it back on, you would not regain the power to cast four additional spells. The ring is what allows you to gain the energy needed to cast those four spells, and after those it can provide you with no more resources for that day.

On a side note, you can only have two active rings at a time. You could wear more, but only two will function at any given time. This is, of course, unless you buy that "mage's hand" thing from the DMG that allows you to wear a third ring and gain it's benefits.

[CASTLEMIKE]

As the DM you can do as you like but I'd suggest treating it like a PRC. The PC can memorize more spells because he was wearing the ring which allowed him to. Removing the ring and the PC is limited to the max spells for his current CL. This helps prevent ring abuse. One PC studying earlier finishing and passing the ring to another wizard or wizards in turn.

[Kizara]

I'd use simple logic.

1) While wearing item A, you gain benefit or ability X.

2) If you are not wearing item A, you do not gain benefit or ability X.

.....

1) While wearing a Ring of Wizardry, you can prepare and cast additional spells.

2) While not wearing a Ring of Wizardry, you cannot prepare or cast additional spells.


Another example would be a headband of Int. If you were wearing one, prepared more spells, and then removed it, you lose all your extra spells.

What happens if you take the ring off and put it back on again? I'm not sure, but I think "you have all the spells you prepared availible again" and "you now have empty slots" are both valid. I would lean a bit towards the second ruling myself.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

It's all very well and good to say that they should or should not lose spells, but take this into account, dispel magic targeted on the ring, ring is suppressed.

Now by most of your interpretations you are now short half of each of your lower level spells for the day, and unless you keep a back up ring, you just wasted a ring slot too. And WBL.

Same goes for walking into an AMF for any reason. Shorted.

Of course, my view is simply this.

1) A wizard can prepare a certain number of spells.
2) Ring of Wizardry increases that amount.
3) There is no mechanic in the entire game that gives any kind of indication at all that prepared spells become unprepared when you lose those slots. Look at Int drain, or taking off an item of +6 Int, or walking into an AMF with that item. Suddenly now you have to decide to remove spells. That makes no sense. They are there, and there to stay.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) While wearing a Ring of Wizardry, you can prepare and cast additional spells.

2) While not wearing a Ring of Wizardry, you cannot prepare or cast additional spells.

Problem with your logic is, it doesn't grant the ability to prepare and cast extra spells, just prepare.

No where in the entire game is there any limitation on how many spells a Wizard can cast a day. Only a limit on how many he can prepare.

[tyckspoon]

It's all very well and good to say that they should or should not lose spells, but take this into account, dispel magic targeted on the ring, ring is suppressed.

Now by most of your interpretations you are now short half of each of your lower level spells for the day, and unless you keep a back up ring, you just wasted a ring slot too. And WBL.

Same goes for walking into an AMF for any reason. Shorted.

Er. Yes? The exact same thing happens if you were using an item to qualify for a feat, to get extra uses of Turning, or any other limited-supply resource. If the item that was giving you access to the extra stuff becomes nonfunctional or you stop using it for some reason, you lose the stuff it was giving you access to. I don't see why spell slots should be treated any differently. Take off the Ring of Wizardry or have it become suppressed, lose the slots the Ring of Wizardry was giving you access to.

[Tsotha-lanti]

You lose the spells, definitely. Same with headband of intellect (if it didn't work that way, an entire party of wizards could all benefit from the same headband while preparing spells). It seems pretty obvious to me. You lose the benefits when you take off the item. The benefit of a ring of wizardry is increasing the amount of spells you can use.

Also, if it didn't work this way, sorcerers would get a disproportionate advantage. You put the ring on, take it off, and you still retain the extra spell slots for... that day? Doesn't seem remotely balanced - a practically infinite number of sorcerers could benefit from one ring.

The ring also doesn't specifically grant the ability to prepare extra spells. What it does is: "The wearer’s arcane spells per day are doubled for one specific spell level."

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

The ring also doesn't specifically grant the ability to prepare extra spells. What it does is: "The wearer’s arcane spells per day are doubled for one specific spell level."

And as I said, Wizards spells per day are spells prepared, not castable. Once a spell is prepared, it isn't going anywhere.

Also note that: Yes multiple people could benefit from the same +Int item if 1) You had multiple Wizards in your party, 2) For some reason at least one of them doesn't want a + to save DCs

Also, spells prepared works for a Wizard because they specifically prepare them, it wouldn't allow multiple Sorcerers to benefit at once.

However, the way you view it Sorcerers are the ones that actually have a superior position.

1) Sorcerer walks into an AMF, he has fewer spells, he walks out, he has them back.

2) Wizard walks into an AMF, he loses several bonus spells and any spells from a ring of Wizardry, now he's waste all the money he spent on that ring, and he can never keep the actual benefits. Same problem for his +Int item.

A Wizard does not forget spells he has prepared except under three conditions:
1) He casts them.
2) He chooses to lose them to make room for different ones.
3) He gets hit by a negative level.

No matter how much a Wizard is Int drained, he's not going to forget his bonus spells, same thing applies here.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Of course it's "going somewhere". You lose spells prepared when you gain negative levels.

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

If you lose spell slots, you lose prepared spells. If you take off your ring of wizardry, you lose spell slots. Ergo, if you take off your ring of wizardry, you lose the prepared spells.

[Frosty]

Of course it's "going somewhere". You lose spells prepared when you gain negative levels.



If you lose spell slots, you lose prepared spells. If you take off your ring of wizardry, you lose spell slots. Ergo, if you take off your ring of wizardry, you lose the prepared spells.

So for example, if you've prepared all your spells, and you see a situation you didn't prepare for...just take off your headband of intelliect and put it back on? You now have a few empty slots because you lost your bonus slot spells when you took off the headband. And you can now prepare better spells in those bonus slots?

This is a nice strategy...

[Khanderas]

Mechanically the benefit should be lost.

- If not, on monday, you prepare all the bonus spells with a RoW 6 and a RoW 5. Tuesday the same with 4 and 3 wednesday 2 and 1. In 3 days downtime you doubled all of those spells. When you have spent many, or plan to spend, slots of a specifik kind just put the corresponding ring on and ding! recharged.

That would be like 5 scrolls per ring, except free of gold, xp, UMD and time. Not to mention reusable forever. It cannot be the intent of the item, the intent must be that you sacrifice a ring slot to be able to double your spells of level X.
It is not a sacrifice if it still works after your morning bookstudy.

[Khanderas]

So for example, if you've prepared all your spells, and you see a situation you didn't prepare for...just take off your headband of intelliect and put it back on? You now have a few empty slots because you lost your bonus slot spells when you took off the headband. And you can now prepare better spells in those bonus slots?

This is a nice strategy...

Any book-caster can dissapate a spell memorised. If you feel you have too many fireball spells stored and need to make room for some other spell, you dont have shoot the fireballs (and spend the bat guano or whatever).
Therefore, you can empty your slots without removing your gear. Those slots become available, but problebly not as easily filled as slots intentionally left blank in the morning.

Think of the hour of study in the morning as the actual powering of the spell (drawing in the power for spells do take more then 6 seconds, it is the actual release that is the "spellcasting" that people see)... a powered up, unspecified slot is not the same as an empty one.

[Kizara]

So for example, if you've prepared all your spells, and you see a situation you didn't prepare for...just take off your headband of intelliect and put it back on? You now have a few empty slots because you lost your bonus slot spells when you took off the headband. And you can now prepare better spells in those bonus slots?

This is a nice strategy...

Beyond being cheese, I'm fairly sure that stat-boosters must be worn for 24 hours to be effective.

Mind you, I don't generally enforce that; but I also don't generally allow BS like the above to take place ethier.

[Tsotha-lanti]

So for example, if you've prepared all your spells, and you see a situation you didn't prepare for...just take off your headband of intelliect and put it back on? You now have a few empty slots because you lost your bonus slot spells when you took off the headband. And you can now prepare better spells in those bonus slots?

This is a nice strategy...

I'd think new slots gained from items etc. don't actually "come into being" until you've rested and regained your slots in general; otherwise sorcerers would gain a pretty heavy instant benefit from eagle's splendor. Can't say off-hand if there is a rules or FAQ citation on this.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Of course it's "going somewhere". You lose spells prepared when you gain negative levels.

Reread what you posted. As if cast. There is no way for a Wizard to lose a prepared spell without casting it or getting a negative level "as if cast"

You don't lose prepared spells.

- If not, on monday, you prepare all the bonus spells with a RoW 6 and a RoW 5. Tuesday the same with 4 and 3 wednesday 2 and 1. In 3 days downtime you doubled all of those spells. When you have spent many, or plan to spend, slots of a specifik kind just put the corresponding ring on and ding! recharged.

Read the text of the item before you comment. When other posters said X, they meant that you can buy a RoW for different spell levels, you don't actually get to choose what it is.

In my mind the Ring of Wizardry is meant to be a way to spend money to get an assortment of low level spells.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This part of the rules seems vague enough to implement reasonable house rules. Why not have the additional spells granted by a Ring of Wizardry (or a Headband of Intellect, for that matter) linked to the item itself? That way, if you walk into an AMF, you lose access to the prepared spell slots granted by the item, but retrieve access to those same prepared spell slots once the ring starts working again.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Beyond being cheese, I'm fairly sure that stat-boosters must be worn for 24 hours to be effective.

I'd think new slots gained from items etc. don't actually "come into being" until you've rested and regained your slots in general; otherwise sorcerers would gain a pretty heavy instant benefit from eagle's splendor. Can't say off-hand if there is a rules or FAQ citation on this.

Not true at all, they are obtained instantly upon wearing the item. Once again you need to think about the fact that items are disabled for at least one round per day, every day, after about level 15. No one would ever get to use their stat boosters again.

Also, the reason Sorcerers can't use that is because Eagle's Splendor (and Fox's Cunning) both specifically state that you don't receive extra spell slots for them.

[Khanderas]

Originally Posted by Khanderas
- If not, on monday, you prepare all the bonus spells with a RoW 6 and a RoW 5. Tuesday the same with 4 and 3 wednesday 2 and 1. In 3 days downtime you doubled all of those spells. When you have spent many, or plan to spend, slots of a specifik kind just put the corresponding ring on and ding! recharged.

Read the text of the item before you comment. When other posters said X, they meant that you can buy a RoW for different spell levels, you don't actually get to choose what it is.

In my mind the Ring of Wizardry is meant to be a way to spend money to get an assortment of low level spells.

I think that you think that I think that a RoW is a ring of spellstoring somehow. Maybe you should reread posts before you comment
I did look at the item description (since it took me quite a few re-reads of your post before figuring out the above) and there are only RoW by RAW for levels 1-4. So monday in my post is flawed. That is problebly not what you referred to though.

The question was first what happens when you remove and put back a RoW, and soon evolved into 'are your spells still there when you put it back' (since few if any say that you can keep the extra spells without the ring on).

My point, was that if the spells were still there if you removed your ring and put it back on, what would stop you from getting the benefit from all rings at once (1, 2, 3 and 4) if all you have to do is put a ring back on your finger to "recharge" your doubled spells. That would change the RoW to rings of multiple spell storing's and as far as I know, that is alittle too much fun, not to mention the possibility to benefit from 4 rings at once (plus two more rings you keep on, for when you dont recharge spells).

[Roderick_BR]

I believe this should be looked at from an intragame perspective, instead of a metagame one for the answer (but then again, my DM loves house rules, so...).

You wake up one morning, and sit down with your spellbook. You spend about an hour (if memory serves) staring intently at your spellbook, and deciding what could be useful today, and what wouldn't be (you're wearing the ring at this point), and then studying to the point that you finally have all but the very final piece of the complex spell cast, and you know the exact motions and words with which you may finish it (because in my theory of magic, a spell takes a long, drawn out ritual to cast for mages, so they do all but the final step, and so it only takes them a standard action to alter reality in some way). As you are traveling later that day, your hand feels very odd, so you remove your ring. Dispite the shock you go through, do you truely belive that with all your focus that morning that you would totally forget that you had done such rituals? I think not! I would say that you keep your spells, but they no longer technically fill slots. If I were DMing that game and I were feeling generous, you'd keep your spells, and if I was feeling like a jerk, I'd make the spells only partially effective, because you did go through something of shock in losing that free space in your mind.

I say you keep them, if you decided against reading my whole essay.

The problem is that all those rituals were not memorized with your concentration alone, but supported by an magic effect. When the effect ends prematurely, it can't help you to keep these things anymore. Remember that technically, you never really "forgets" magic (or you would need to re-learn it everyday, instead of just memorizing). The ring, in a way, enhances your memory, and ability to keep the spell in your mind, along the stored energy. When it's gone, the extra information just leaks off, and is gone too.
It's like carrying something heavy with a friend's help, and suddenly your friend needs to leave. You'll have a hard time carrying the object alone.

And one addition for Khanderas's question. What keeps you from sharing your rings with the others wizards in the group?

The taking-out-and-back-in tiara of intellect trick won't work because the wizard will need another 8 hours of rest to make the new slots ready to be filled. Technically you gain the full benefits of an higher int when wearing it, but you still need the normal time to prepare the new slots.

[Khanderas]

And one addition for Khanderas's question. What keeps you from sharing your rings with the others wizards in the group?

Im with you on that, I think... my question was more rethorical really since it would be abusive as heck. The spell is not in the ring (RoW is not RoSpellstoring) but is an enhancer only.
Removing a RoW will lower your capacity for storing spellpower in your mind (spellpower because you can probleby remember every spell you ever known, but you can't "power" them all plus casting does not mean forget... casting renders the spells power spent).

So if you have 8 slots with the ring, now you have 4. In order for your brain not exploding the spells that don't fit, gets to dissipate. Put it back on, and you once again have the capacity to store 8 spells, but the new ones will be empty until you rest and refill them.
If you did cast 4 or more spells that day however, nothing happens when you remove the ring because no spells were ever stored in the ring.


While im typing stuff, my take on the AMF is that since it only supresses magic (continous effects reappear when you exit) you don't lose spells while in it. And fairly pointless to keep track of spellslots when in one anyway. But that is mostly for simplicity and can be debated, but not by me

[pendell]

Now, I'm a mean jerk, so here's what I'd do if I were the DM.

"So ... the RoW gave you the ability to memorize X additional spells per day. You lost the additional space in your mind when you took off the RoW, so I'm going to treat this as an attack of amnesia. You memorize Y + X spells , for a total of Z. So you should forget Z / Z - Y spells. That works out to a percentage A% chance (say 25%).

Roll a D20 for each of your memorized spells. For every spell you roll a 5 or less, take it off your list of prepared/memorized for the day."

Rationale: Taking off a ring of wizardry should have some negative effect, so I would houserule that, since putting on the ring gives you additional spells, taking it off takes spells away. And since I don't want to give the user the ability to choose which spells they forget (I smell an exploit somehow), we'll make the spell loss random.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Khanderas]

Now, I'm a mean jerk, so here's what I'd do if I were the DM.

"So ... the RoW gave you the ability to memorize X additional spells per day. You lost the additional space in your mind when you took off the RoW, so I'm going to treat this as an attack of amnesia. You memorize Y + X spells , for a total of Z. So you should forget Z / Z - Y spells. That works out to a percentage A% chance (say 25%).

Roll a D20 for each of your memorized spells. For every spell you roll a 5 or less, take it off your list of prepared/memorized for the day."

Rationale: Taking off a ring of wizardry should have some negative effect, so I would houserule that, since putting on the ring gives you additional spells, taking it off takes spells away. And since I don't want to give the user the ability to choose which spells they forget (I smell an exploit somehow), we'll make the spell loss random.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

If you know that will happen (and a wizard would well know this), you simple dissapate spells that is over your non-ring limit (something that wizard would also know).

However, being a bastard myself at times, I am intrigued by the possibilities of accidental or forced removal of said item.

Your system, if I read it right (and it ain't easy) takes the

Total spellslot (your own + ring)
--------------------------------- = chance to lose spells remaining
Natural spellslots (without ring)


Or in numbers
10 / 5 = 2 = 200 % (for 5 natural spellslots with the ring doubles)

Intrestingly enough this holds true (50% chance according to the formula) regardless of how many slots you have, or have spent since it can be summarised into the formula 2x / x = 2

Obviously I misread / misunderstood you, because it doesnt make sense to always have a 200 % chance to lose each spell once you take off a RoW.
_____________________________

Now that I got the Bastard out of my system, I think what you ment was something like spells that don't "fit" without the ring can overcharge the wizards brain and would aside from winking out also have a chance to cause damage to the other memorised spells.

X = the amount of spells that do not fit anymore
Y = the amount of spellslots "naturally".

(Y-X)
------ = a percentage between 100% (for when X is 0) and 0 (when X = Y)
Y

This is then the chance you get to KEEP your spells at that spell level (alittle harsh to lose all spells in every spell level). So when X is 0 (no extra spells) you keep 100% of your spells and when you remove the ring when at full capacity (4 natural spell slots + 4 from the RoW) you have 0 % of keeping the natural spells.
Even if you pass the roll, you cannot keep more then your Natural spellslots.



I would probelbly take the easy way out and slap the Wizard with some ability damage to int at oh letsay Spelllevel + 1 /spell lost
So a RoW -3 that is removed from a wizard with 2 more stored spells then he normally can handle would brain himself for 3 + 2 Int damage.

[Fixer]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...caneSpells.htm

I point your attention to one line at the bottom that (I am afraid) blows a hole in the arguments of Chosen_of_Vecna.

Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind.

CoV's argument that it is not possible to remove a spell from a caster's mind without casting it cannot be true due to this statement saying specifically that the effects of magic items can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind.

It might be argued that that statement was intended to mean a magic item removing a spell from a caster's mind, but the difference of opinion on what may or may not have been intended by a particular statement can only be discovered by asking the individuals who made the statement (i.e. go ask Wizards).

Under these circumstances, it will remain up to the GM as to whether or not, when a Ring of Wizardry is removed, a caster loses spells memorized, spell slots available, or is simply unable to cast spells memorized when using the ring.

As a compromise proposal, I would like to recommend the following:

• If the ring (or other spell slot boosting item) is physically removed from the spellcaster, either through force, desire, or destruction, those spell slots vanish and the spells prepared within them vanish as well as the caster's mind is unable to keep those spell patterns any longer. The wizard may choose which spells to retain (to the maximum normally allowed to retain) as the magic attempts to flee his mind.
• If the ring (or other spell slot boosting item) is magically suppressed, by either a dispel magic, anti-magic field, or other similar effect, those spell slots are temporarily made unavailable to the wizard. They are not lost, they are simply inaccessable for the duration of the suppression. The wizard may select which spells he retains to cast. This represents the magic still being in existence but also being unable to be accessed.