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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Knowing that in advance would require Parson to predict Jillian's exact path -- conducting the search until she got to such-and-such a hex, then making a beeline for Ansom. He ain't a Predictamancer, just a strategist.
    No. But AGAIN, Parson knew where she entered the map. And a good strategist makes good predictions. He knew where she entered. He had doubts about Wanda's spell. The spell would have been his back-up, NOT his primary protection against Jillian. He should have made sure the spell never had a chance to fail, by not allowing it to be a primary part of his equations.

    He had the wrist comp for God's sake!

    And Parson got blown out, not because of his abilities, or lack thereof. He got boned by the authors. I'm hoping it will be for a good reason, but with the glacial pacing we've entered? It could be three to five months before we find out.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    I hope you don't miss my previous post, which I posted (presumably) while you were typing your previous post

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    No. But AGAIN, Parson knew where she entered the map. And a good strategist makes good predictions. He knew where she entered.
    He did not know where she would move. Her starting point is irrelevant. All the matters is that she flew througha particular hex. Where she started from is irrelevant, as she was not moving in a straight line.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    He had doubts about Wanda's spell. The spell would have been his back-up, NOT his primary protection against Jillian. He should have made sure the spell never had a chance to fail, by not allowing it to be a primary part of his equations.
    He does not express doubts until after he moved his troops. If he had doubts, he would have talked to Wanda and/or Sizemore before he moved. He didn't. He only expressed doubts after Jillian became a potential threat (i.e. after she started the hunt).

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    He had the wrist comp for God's sake!
    Which would have helped him how? He had no reason to calculate Jillian's damage potential until after he positioned his troops. At that point, that would be a pointless exercise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    And Parson got blown out, not because of his abilities, or lack thereof. He got boned by the authors.
    Uh, yeah, it's not like the characters have any actual free will. Every victory, every defeat, is up to the authors. Welcome to fiction...

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    I'm hoping it will be for a good reason, but with the glacial pacing we've entered? It could be three to five months before we find out.
    Please don't try to change the subject. Especially after you complained about it in another thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    I'm trying to get conversations shifted AWAY from pointless grumbling about the schedule, and back on the nature of the story. It takes DAYS to get locked grumble threads to drop down the list. Thanks for shooting down my idea so fast.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2007-11-03 at 09:51 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    I hope you don't miss my previous post, which I posted (presumably) while you were typing your previous post
    Missed it, and had to go to work. I'll try to double back.

    He did not know where she would move. Her starting point is irrelevant. All the matters is that she flew througha particular hex. Where she started from is irrelevant, as she was not moving in a straight line.
    Not totally true, but he could have predicted that she would go running to the rescue of the "Fair Prince." Knowing her entry point and that Ansom would give his "best guess" to the location of the raiding dwagons, Parson should have assumed that Jillian would parallel the main column, especially since Ansom knew the dwagons had limited range left, and had fled to the south.

    He does not express doubts until after he moved his troops. If he had doubts, he would have talked to Wanda and/or Sizemore before he moved. He didn't. He only expressed doubts after Jillian became a potential threat (i.e. after she started the hunt).
    He didn't express them (would you, knowing how hot tempered Wanda could be?), but he certianly had them. Ever have to sit through "The Road to Abaline"?(sp) It's a business ed. movie about dealing with agreement. Sometimes people will agree to this, that or the other just to not be the odd man out. Everyone fears Wanda's temper, so everyone agrees with her unless they think they can get enough people together to oppose her.

    Which would have helped him how? He had no reason to calculate Jillian's damage potential until after he positioned his troops. At that point, that would be a pointless exercise.
    "Hey, Sizemore. Show me the formula that shows the odds of Jillian throwing off the suggestion spell. And ranges for what Wanda thinks her bonus is, and their opposite in case she's wrong."

    Uh, yeah, it's not like the characters have any actual free will. Every victory, every defeat, is up to the authors. Welcome to fiction...
    I'm already here. I write as a hobby, although not nearly so much since I graduated college. History & Poli Sci, minor in English. Mostly in creative writing.

    When you write, your characters do take on a life of their own. As a writer, you listen to what they might say to you. They will warn you when you try to write them "out of character."

    Please don't try to change the subject. Especially after you complained about it in another thread.
    Sorry. Tired. Getting frustrated. Not thinking as clearly as I'd prefer. Please ignore my grumble about the slow posting rate.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    One or more people refuse to believe that it was random chance, which causes problems for all strategists. Oh, and seems to be a theme of the comic. Or maybe Vinny's a luckamancer.



    Moving the Ring a hex or two west
    1) would have taken them out of the forest, which
    2) would have left them exposed to major counter-attack which
    3) would have allowed Ansom to find out that the A-dwags weren't in the middle without using up so much move which
    4) would have let him spend more move on finding the A-dwagons... He may not even have had to rely on the crap shoot that was the Hunt.
    And that sounds like a good idea to you?

    Think your strategies through before you suggest they would be better than Parsons! You just made a "pure NOOB mistake" (in your own words... personally, I despise the term NOOB).



    I absolutely agree with you. But remember the old (and incredibly appropriate) saying: Its always darkest just before dawn.

    And guess what time it is in Erfworld?
    YOu see, he apparently thinks that Parson is supposed to be the absolute perfect strategist who can plan for every single eventuality and happenstance no matter how unlikely. He possesses superhuman powers of precognition which the authors should not be able to ignore.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Missed it, and had to go to work. I'll try to double back.



    Not totally true, but he could have predicted that she would go running to the rescue of the "Fair Prince." Knowing her entry point and that Ansom would give his "best guess" to the location of the raiding dwagons, Parson should have assumed that Jillian would parallel the main column, especially since Ansom knew the dwagons had limited range left, and had fled to the south.



    He didn't express them (would you, knowing how hot tempered Wanda could be?), but he certianly had them. Ever have to sit through "The Road to Abaline"?(sp) It's a business ed. movie about dealing with agreement. Sometimes people will agree to this, that or the other just to not be the odd man out. Everyone fears Wanda's temper, so everyone agrees with her unless they think they can get enough people together to oppose her.



    "Hey, Sizemore. Show me the formula that shows the odds of Jillian throwing off the suggestion spell. And ranges for what Wanda thinks her bonus is, and their opposite in case she's wrong."



    I'm already here. I write as a hobby, although not nearly so much since I graduated college. History & Poli Sci, minor in English. Mostly in creative writing.

    When you write, your characters do take on a life of their own. As a writer, you listen to what they might say to you. They will warn you when you try to write them "out of character."



    Sorry. Tired. Getting frustrated. Not thinking as clearly as I'd prefer. Please ignore my grumble about the slow posting rate.
    SO you know what is in or out of Character for Parson better than his author does, do you?

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    One or more people refuse to believe that it was random chance, which causes problems for all strategists. Oh, and seems to be a theme of the comic. Or maybe Vinny's a luckamancer.
    Maybe he IS! Dun dun DUHN! But if he is, there should have been some sort of hint. The game map on Parson's desk at his apartment was a hint that maybe the guy in the dirty t-shirt knew a little something about strategy.

    Moving the Ring a hex or two west
    1) would have taken them out of the forest, which
    2) would have left them exposed to major counter-attack which
    3) would have allowed Ansom to find out that the A-dwags weren't in the middle without using up so much move which
    4) would have let him spend more move on finding the A-dwagons... He may not even have had to rely on the crap shoot that was the Hunt.
    And that sounds like a good idea to you?

    Think your strategies through before you suggest they would be better than Parsons! You just made a "pure NOOB mistake" (in your own words... personally, I despise the term NOOB).
    OK, since I wasn't TOTALLY clear, lets try that again.

    Move the center of the Donut of Doom one hex West, AND one hex south. This both keeps the DoD in the heavy forest, but still close enough to the main column to be "easily found" by the search bats. The DoD remains the same distance from the main column, but now further away from the wounded stack they were pretending to protect. It also leaves open a path for Ansom to cross, without ever spotting the lake.

    Move the wounded A's south and East one hex, further over the lake (away from the DoD).
    (Cross referenced maps for your perusal:)
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0062.html (Ansom's Fog of War map)
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0066.html (Parson's Battle Table Map)

    And as an added bonus, with the A's moved, they are both out of Ansom's search pattern, AND no longer part of a straight line path through an empty hex, to Ansom, to a filled hex, to the main column. Jillian might be fearless and reckless, but she's not unnecessarily foolish. If she can avoid taking damage by going through an empty stack instead of an unwounded stack of B's, she probably would prefer to do so. Coming "up" from the south is logical, so why would Parson leave the A's so close to the back door?

    Maybe I'm not the NOOB you're assuming I am. I can read a map.

    I absolutely agree with you. But remember the old (and incredibly appropriate) saying: Its always darkest just before dawn.

    And guess what time it is in Erfworld?
    And sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a train, about to run you over.

    Parson already has enough problems in front of him. This was unnessary, even gratuitious violence against him. I'm baffled both as a gamer, and as a writer.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Maybe I'm not the NOOB you're assuming I am. I can read a map.
    We don't really know the path she took. You're assuming it was a straight line. That would be dumb, so I assume Parson didn't have the A-dwagons on a straightline with Jillian. She might have used some sort of random walk within her move limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Parson already has enough problems in front of him. This was unnessary, even gratuitious violence against him. I'm baffled both as a gamer, and as a writer.
    There I agree with you, it was too much. But there is a reason: Stanley's left the building. Somehow that will have a major impact in what follows, so it was not really gratuitious, it's important for the plot.

    With bothers me is having Parson without the dwagons. I wanted to see a battle at the walls with dwagons against siege units+peeps. But I'm sure Jamie and Rob have something awesome in mind. I would be very disappointed if the story went lame with Parson surrendering. Parson needs to crush Ansom's army and put Jil and Vinny's heads on a pike.
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    I apologize now for the mega-wall-of-text-post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Not totally true, but he could have predicted that she would go running to the rescue of the "Fair Prince." Knowing her entry point and that Ansom would give his "best guess" to the location of the raiding dwagons, Parson should have assumed that Jillian would parallel the main column, especially since Ansom knew the dwagons had limited range left, and had fled to the south.
    What Parson couldn't predict is when she would go from 'search pattern' to 'beeline to the prince'. that point forms one end of the line segment that terminates at the ring. Depending on where that was determines whether or not she goes through the A-dwagon hex. If Parson moved the A-dwagons elsewhere (or the B-ring, for that matter) she still could have stumbled on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    He didn't express them (would you, knowing how hot tempered Wanda could be?), but he certianly had them. Ever have to sit through "The Road to Abaline"?(sp) It's a business ed. movie about dealing with agreement. Sometimes people will agree to this, that or the other just to not be the odd man out. Everyone fears Wanda's temper, so everyone agrees with her unless they think they can get enough people together to oppose her.

    "Hey, Sizemore. Show me the formula that shows the odds of Jillian throwing off the suggestion spell. And ranges for what Wanda thinks her bonus is, and their opposite in case she's wrong."
    I have not seen that film, but i am aware of the principle. Honestly, I haven't seen anyone fear Wanda's temper... In fact Henchman Mung goes so far as to make a comment that should bring down her wrath if she is really short-tempered. Misty was afraid of punishment, but not so much that she didn't volunteer to help Parson. I think Wanda is strong-willed, stubborn even, but not short-tempered. In fact, I'd say she must have the patience of a saint to be able to deal with Stanley.

    If Parson had concerns, he could have talked to Sizemore discreetly before making his plan. Sizemore obviously had no fears about speaking out, and I doubt that Parson is afraid of Wanda, given the way he antagonizes the one person that he knows can hurt him: Stanley.

    No, I still maintain that Parson wasn't concerned until The Hunt started.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    I'm already here. I write as a hobby, although not nearly so much since I graduated college. History & Poli Sci, minor in English. Mostly in creative writing.

    When you write, your characters do take on a life of their own. As a writer, you listen to what they might say to you. They will warn you when you try to write them "out of character."
    I'm not much of a creative writer. My own background is in Computers, Philosophy, and Religion, and almost a minor in Physics. A heavy emphasis on logic, in multiple forms (first Electronic logic on Physics, than computer logic, than philosophical logic... though in the end it all boils down to the same thing), and a heavy emphasis on analysis of limited or corrupted data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    OK, since I wasn't TOTALLY clear, lets try that again.

    Move the center of the Donut of Doom one hex West, AND one hex south. This both keeps the DoD in the heavy forest, but still close enough to the main column to be "easily found" by the search bats. The DoD remains the same distance from the main column, but now further away from the wounded stack they were pretending to protect. It also leaves open a path for Ansom to cross, without ever spotting the lake.
    I had a much longer response here, talking about search patterns, forcing Ansom to take a specific path so he could make it back to the column, otherwise the 'fork woul dhave fallen apart... when I realized, the forest units are already at the limit of their movement. Otherwise, Vinny would have had them help out in his 'escape' plan. as it is, Vinny thinks they would make it through, but is unsure. With odds like that, and the probably loss of Tarfu and the forest units anyway, there is no reason not to have them help with the escape, unless they have 0 move remaining.

    By moving the ring further away, the forest units couldn't reach, so Ansom would have been forced to bring his air forces in. that significantly increases the chance that the A-dwags are found, also, Ansom might have saved his move until the air forces confirmed the presence of the A dwagons in the ring... so Ansom would have been safe in the column. In other words, a total failure of the plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Move the wounded A's south and East one hex, further over the lake (away from the DoD).
    (Cross referenced maps for your perusal:)
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0062.html (Ansom's Fog of War map)
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0066.html (Parson's Battle Table Map)

    And as an added bonus, with the A's moved, they are both out of Ansom's search pattern, AND no longer part of a straight line path through an empty hex, to Ansom, to a filled hex, to the main column.
    Actually, if both the ring and the A dwagons moved south one hex, the line would still be there... besides, from any two points you can establish a line. So long as Jillian started the 'rescue' along that line, she would have found the A dwagons. As I said above, Parson could not predict whether or not Jillian would have started the 'rescue' on that line, no matter where that line was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Jillian might be fearless and reckless, but she's not unnecessarily foolish. If she can avoid taking damage by going through an empty stack instead of an unwounded stack of B's, she probably would prefer to do so. Coming "up" from the south is logical, so why would Parson leave the A's so close to the back door?
    Myabe, that was as far away as they could get. They were down to low move, after all. Given that we don't know their exact flight path, that first lake hex could have been move #56.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Maybe I'm not the NOOB you're assuming I am. I can read a map.
    I never called you a NOOB or said you couldn't read a map. I labeled your (perceived) mistake as being as bad or worse than the one that you claim Parson made. I used your label for it, and even put in a disclaimer that I dislike the term 'NOOB'. I strive to avoid making unnecessary assumptions, as they only taint actual data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Parson already has enough problems in front of him. This was unnessary, even gratuitious violence against him. I'm baffled both as a gamer, and as a writer.
    Without knowing the extent of the plot, I can't make any claims about whether or not the slaughtering of the A dwagons was unnecessary or gratuitous. I can make the claim that I trust the authors, and that we have seen some really good plot and character development as a direct result of the slaughter.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Actually, if both the ring and the A dwagons moved south one hex, the line would still be there... besides, from any two points you can establish a line. So long as Jillian started the 'rescue' along that line, she would have found the A dwagons. As I said above, Parson could not predict whether or not Jillian would have started the 'rescue' on that line, no matter where that line was.
    Also, hex-based movement tends to collapse various possible paths into identical results. For instance, a direct path from anywhere within a given 60 degree arc will pass through a specific one of the hexes neighboring the target.

    The A dwagons were two hexes from the hole in the donut; hex-based movement in that case means that a direct path from anywhere within the right 60 degree are has a 50-50 shot of passing through that hex.

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