Erfworld 83, Page 77

[Gez]

Why is everyone saying, "Oh, well, that's it for Misty"? I don't think the Mancer Parson is carrying looks anything like her...in fact, it definitely looks like a man to me.

Because she lacks big boobs? Lying on the back while being near starved will do that to practically any woman.


The thing is, there are three Eyemancers. You can look at them here or here. Purple, Grey, and Orange. On these strips, Grey is clearly a woman, while Orange and Purple are ambiguous -- the hooded robes conceal most of their shape.

Purple is the Foolamancer, we all saw this confirmed beyond doubt by the last few strips. That's no woman for sure. The three strips where we got a clear view of Misty showed her as not that much endowed, and her robe color, although desaturated by the dim light, appears more orange than grey.

So in short, you have the debate from "Misty's Cup Size" thread.

My opinion is that it wouldn't make much sense for Parson to be so affected by the death of the Thinkamancer since he never got to know her (or him if you want); so that it's Misty that got croaked is more logical. Especially given the foreshadowing from Wanda and Sizemore did.

[Justyn]

Why is everyone saying, "Oh, well, that's it for Misty"? I don't think the Mancer Parson is carrying looks anything like her...in fact, it definitely looks like a man to me.

My current belief that Misty is the downed Eyemancer: 70%

On a reexamination, I can note some differences from Misty's appearance, and the downed Eyemancer's:

• The hair of the downed Eyemancer appears to be pink, Misty's appears to be grey or an off-white.
  
• The downed Eyemancer's skin appears to be a pale blue. Misty's appears to be just pale: Conan O'Brian pale.
  
• I have to bring this one up. No breasts: enough said. Misty's are about the same size as Wanda's; a fair bit smaller, but they are somewhat similar in size. Even on the back, with the chest propped up like it is, you would see at least some hint of thier precence; and on top of that, the fold lines on the downed's robes actualy seem to imply the lack of breasts as opposed to thier presance.

[Freederick]

Why is everyone saying, "Oh, well, that's it for Misty"? I don't think the Mancer Parson is carrying looks anything like her...in fact, it definitely looks like a man to me.
...

...
On these strips, Grey is clearly a woman, while Orange and Purple are ambiguous -- the hooded robes conceal most of their shape.
...

...
I have to bring this one up. No breasts: enough said.
...

Pleeease... pretty please... pretty please with whipped cream on top... A lot of labor has gone into creating this special thread for you guys, so that you can continue this group wank pointless discussion outside of the main thread.

[fendrin]

And four linked casters "can't even be done" (wink, wink). But with such exceptional casters, such a dire situation, and a mathamancy device with which to guesstimate the likelihoods of success, I can see them trying it. Parson is already thinking outside the rules--"Maybe he can't [disband me]"-- so I don't think it's out of the question.

I'd hate to imagine what Wanda could do with her power, Sizemore's knowledge, and the extra knowledge and talent of a third caster. There is always the weapon of mass reconciliation option, but I don't think they'll try that first.

Well, I'm guessing that wanda won't be adding much to the mental mix at the moment, which leaves Sizemore and an unknown. You are right though, they are likely to start with something in one of their specialties.

Um, I think you people are forgetting the costs of linking casters. Like, they lose their individuality. And tend to go mad or die when the link is broken. Out of the three people we've seen linked so far, one is dead and one appears to be insane (granted, he might have been insane to begin with.)

Still. Do you really think Parson is the sort of person who would order (or even ask) his friends to do something like that?

Honestly, yes. He will hate himself for doing it, but all of their boops are on the line.

If he let Stanley go to his death, and then becomes the new ruler of Gobwin Knob, does that mean he becomes overlord through regicide, kinda?

Unclear. I expect it would actually go to Sizemore, as he is the next highest-ranked member of Stanley's tribe. Not to mention rags-to-riches themes/tropes.

Why is everyone saying, "Oh, well, that's it for Misty"? I don't think the Mancer Parson is carrying looks anything like her...in fact, it definitely looks like a man to me.

Because it is more dramatic if it is Misty. Also, Parson's reaction is way too personal for it to be someone he doesn't know. as others have said, this is where the war finally hits Parson where it hurts.

Random art comment: I love the looks on the hobgobwins' faces in panel two.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Parson does have a few advantages left.

I always hate taking posts apart one by one, but that seems to be the way things are done around here. So here we go.

1. A Thinkamancer. Thinkamancers presumably can provide instructions to units at range. Misty was probably more valuable, tactically, but this still shouldn't be overlooked.

That "power" hasn't been shown clearly, at best implied. But without the table, it can also be argued that Misty, et al, can only give orders to individual units, one at a time. Better than sending out a runner, but not much better than a Hat.

2. Defenses. Even with everything gone to boop, the castle is still standing, and still one of the toughest places around. Ansom is still down heavily in turms of his siege.

Ansom is NOT down HEAVILY. He is down 40%, but he started with four times as much as he needed. So now he is down to just over twice as much as he needs. Had Parson been allowed to finish his selective targeting against the siege engines and the battle bears he would have been in better shape to stop Ansom outside the walls. Now he gets twice as long to watch the walls come crashing down around his ears. But the walls are coming down.

3. Wanda. Assuming he can talk her out of her funk, Wanda is probably worth more than every other caster in the game put together. It's been stated again and again that she has overwhelming magical talent and extensive knowledge that she never puts to use. If Parson could convince her to use that somehow, she could make a significant difference. She could act as a Lookamancer for scouting, a Foolamancer for veiling, a... well, we don't actually know what the other 'mancers do. But she can do all of it. She just hasn't, until now.

That's true. But Stanley, her Liege Lord, who knew her for years, never got her to do more, why would a fat guy from another planet have any more luck? What does Parson have to offer that Stanley didn't?

Meh... Maybe size really DOES matter!

4. A summoning spell. It's not compeletely clear it works like this (it could be one-shot, I guess), but in theory, Parson could just convince Wanda to use the summoning spell again and summon up more warlords. This is tricky, since it seems like it takes a lot out of her, and they don't have much time... but warlords are valuable (upgrading units to them takes "mucho shmuckero"). Pulling a hand of the best warlords and military geniuses in the universe out of thin air could turn anything around.

Actually, Rob and Jamie said they were going to do something like that at one of their conventions. They were going to Summon Parson's friends.
But that argument has already been totally disproved by the story as written. Parson WAS a tactical genious, too bad the writers totally blew past him to move the plot along.

That Parson, a tactical genius and game designer would park his most valuable asset where Jillian, a known enemy commander, would "stumble over" them, shows that the authors just don't care. Any hex based/turn based strategy gamer KNOWS to count hexes, and put valuable assets out of range, or put them behind other assets that can cause damage, and "force" the enemy to move through those hexes to get to your units. Leaving the dwagons over the lake was only a good idea if there was little to no chance of Jillian finding them. The "She looked over here, then ran straight there, and got lucky" argument just doesn't hold water to me.

5. Ansom is off-balance. He doesn't know what to expect; things have been going the way he never would have expected them to, and he nearly got croaked last turn. He's also in love, which only makes you more powerful in the movies. Any of this could easily lead him to make a mistake.

Ansom DID make a mistake. He assumed the A-dwagons were hidden in the Donut of Doom. He fell directly into a trap. The authors bailed him out of trouble, Ansom did not get himself out of trouble. What makes you think the authors won't leap to Ansom's rescue in the future?

6. Ansom is still poorly-informed. He doesn't know where Stanley actually is, he doesn't know where the dwagons actually are, he thinks that any of it could be veiled anywhere, and he's just seen Stanley's side use strategies he never would have expected. If Parson summons up a bunch of warlords, or convinces Wanda to bring out magic she hasn't used in combat before, or whatever, Ansom won't know about it until it hits him. He could make the mistake of being too careful, too, instead of too rash; after this near-disaster for his side, he could easily see veiled dwagons and deadly traps around every corner. After that last episode, when he comes up and sees an empty capital with no dwagons... he's going to think it's a trap. Which works to Parson's advantage, slightly, since it isn't.

Ansom doesn't need "Perfect Intel." He knows where Gobwin Knob is, he knows where 90% of his enemy is (inside GK), and he knows that he has more than enough troops to slaughter every man, woman and well... there are no children in Erfworld, but you get the picture. Whether or not Stanley is inside really doesn't matter, especially if Ansom doesn't know where Stanley is. Ansom is going to assume Stanley is hiding under his bed once Ansom's siege engines batter down Stanley's walls and gates.

Ansom's uprightness is his disadvantage here. No matter how evil he thinks Stanley is, he probably wouldn't be able to imagine anyone doing what Stanley just did, so he won't be able to take advantage of the situation as well as he could have.

Don't mistake Evil for Ruthlessness. Stanley is Evil, or at least as presented in the story. I really don't see it. More of a spoiled, hard-headed kid than a truly evil person. Just not particularily Ruthless. Ansom has shown himself to be pretty Ruthless.

7. If it does come out that Stanley is gone, Ansom's alliance could be in trouble. They signed on to get Stanley, not to capture a leaderless (but still nastily defended) capital for Jetstone; a lot of his allies would probably decide to go their seperate ways at that point. There would be a loss of purpose and intra-alliance disagreements among Ansom's side in general. Remember how many casualties were predicted in Ansom's charge? He planned to use all the Marbits as a feint. They might object to going through with that if all it accomplishes is winning Jetstone a city... All of this works to Parson's advantage.

That depends on Ansom's Charisma Modifier. But do you really think the other Coalition Leaders are just going to leave GK standing? What if Stanley comes back? Would you want to leave Stanley with a ready made and super strong Fortress of Retreat?

[Sebastian Bux]

Didn't make sense to me. All over the place.

[Vreejack]

Next episode: Parson links Wanda and Sizemore through the thinkamancer! Just when you thought everything in Parson's life was turning to s___, well, you were right!

Honestly, I cannot see this. Wanda uncroaks formerly living things, and Sizemore animates things which were never really alive. They both do the same thing to different classes of objects. It makes about as much sense as a brain surgeon and a proctologist looking for synergy.

[fendrin]

That "power" hasn't been shown clearly, at best implied. But without the table, it can also be argued that Misty, et al, can only give orders to individual units, one at a time. Better than sending out a runner, but not much better than a Hat.

The advantage of a thinkamancer over a hat is that only one person (so by extension, one hex) can receive orders from the hat. The thinkamancer can (apparently) message anyone. Also, with the odd flow of time in Erfworld, 'one at a time' doesn't really matter.

That Parson, a tactical genius and game designer would park his most valuable asset where Jillian, a known enemy commander, would "stumble over" them, shows that the authors just don't care. Any hex based/turn based strategy gamer KNOWS to count hexes, and put valuable assets out of range, or put them behind other assets that can cause damage, and "force" the enemy to move through those hexes to get to your units. Leaving the dwagons over the lake was only a good idea if there was little to no chance of Jillian finding them. The "She looked over here, then ran straight there, and got lucky" argument just doesn't hold water to me.

Well, the idea that Parson could have possibly put the A-dwagons anywhere better doesn't hold water to me. We know it is possible for someone to accidentally stumble on something, it happens all the time, whether or not you feel that is the case here. I have (in a previous thread) shown that Parson could not know which way Jillian was going to move. So now tell me, where should Parson have put the A-dwagons?

Furthermore, as I have also said in a previous thread, The only logical conclusion I can think of is that Parson was planning on sacrificing the A-dwagons to get to Ansom and/or the siege. By moving them to the lake hex, he gave them a chance at survival.

Parson's comment that they 'can change the course of the whole battle' is intrinsically linked to the very next thing he says, 'for almost no cost!'. Before his realization, he was anticipating losing some forces, which had something to do with Ansom knowing where they were... the B-dwags have not moved (as per the 7 hexes of forest refered to in the Klog) So he has to be referring to the A-dwagons. The ring fort, as stated earlier, is to draw the coalition air forces, keeping them from rejoining the column. Ansom is then given a choice: protect the siege, or himself and the air forces. In chess, that is called a fork. You make your opponent choose which of two pieces you are going to capture.

Drawing the air forces allows for either a strike against Ansom or the remaining siege. Personally, I think it is tactically brilliant. Poor tacticians often make the mistake of not being willing to sacrifice your best units if it means you can win.

I have yet to see how Parson's plan has failed, other than being interrupted by the Tactical moron that is His Toolship.

For that matter, Stanley may be about to go do what Parson would have had the dwagons do anyway. Only now, they have Stanley's bonuses, a foolamancer, and 3 KISS to add to the firepower.

Ansom DID make a mistake. He assumed the A-dwagons were hidden in the Donut of Doom. He fell directly into a trap. The authors bailed him out of trouble, Ansom did not get himself out of trouble. What makes you think the authors won't leap to Ansom's rescue in the future?

What makes you think that that the authors bailed him out? are you sure they didn't just put him in a situation that leads to a more dramatic death?

That depends on Ansom's Charisma Modifier. But do you really think the other Coalition Leaders are just going to leave GK standing? What if Stanley comes back? Would you want to leave Stanley with a ready made and super strong Fortress of Retreat?

If they have a choice between taking out Stanley or taking out GK, they would probably choose Stanley.

[Wender]

Maybe, but who would be the fourth caster?

We only knew five casters in Stanley's employ. The three Eyemancers (Looka, Thinka, Foola), Croaka Wanda, and Dirta Sizemore. And now, Looka (Misty) is dead and Foola is gone with the wind Stanley.

That leaves Thinka, and that's exactly who you need to meld the casters together in the first place.

As for the price to the casters of linking them: Yes, it's steep. If the alternative is that everyone dies, is it worth paying?

[Toxic Avenger]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but...

Misty's eyes aren't X'd out...yet. Could she actually still be alive, but barely?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The advantage of a thinkamancer over a hat is that only one person (so by extension, one hex) can receive orders from the hat. The thinkamancer can (apparently) message anyone. Also, with the odd flow of time in Erfworld, 'one at a time' doesn't really matter.

The Hat is a telegram system. The Thinkamancer (if they actually work that way) is a telephone system. The Table was an All-On Tactical Network. I was thinking of adding that, but you beat me to the punch. Still, the story has been advanced on the basis of Ansom's poor communications and intel net. If we're gonna pretend it's not really a problem, then why bring it up in the first place?

Well, the idea that Parson could have possibly put the A-dwagons anywhere better doesn't hold water to me. We know it is possible for someone to accidentally stumble on something, it happens all the time, whether or not you feel that is the case here. I have (in a previous thread) shown that Parson could not know which way Jillian was going to move. So now tell me, where should Parson have put the A-dwagons?

Finally!!! The question I've been waiting for! Parson could have put them in the forest, one or more hexes "away" from Jillian's most likely Approach Corridor. Yes, Ansom had ground search units, BUT HE DIDN'T USE THEM!!! He sent out the bats, since they had the best range for forest hunts. The bats found the Donut of Doom, JUST LIKE PARSON WANTED HIM TO! And Ansom fell face first into the trap. It didn't matter where Parson put the A-dwagons, as long as he convinced Ansom that they were in the middle of the Dwagon Fort.

Furthermore, as I have also said in a previous thread, The only logical conclusion I can think of is that Parson was planning on sacrificing the A-dwagons to get to Ansom and/or the siege. By moving them to the lake hex, he gave them a chance at survival.

Again, it doesn't matter where Parson puts the A-dwagons, as long as Ansom THINKS they are being protected by the B's. That was Part 1. Part 2 would be to protect them from Jillian. Since Parson didn't trust Wanda's spell, he would have taken more precautions. He didn't. And I wave the bullcrap flag.

Parson's comment that they 'can change the course of the whole battle' is intrinsically linked to the very next thing he says, 'for almost no cost!'. Before his realization, he was anticipating losing some forces, which had something to do with Ansom knowing where they were... the B-dwags have not moved (as per the 7 hexes of forest refered to in the Klog) So he has to be referring to the A-dwagons. The ring fort, as stated earlier, is to draw the coalition air forces, keeping them from rejoining the column. Ansom is then given a choice: protect the siege, or himself and the air forces. In chess, that is called a fork. You make your opponent choose which of two pieces you are going to capture.

Yeah, I know what a fork is, and yes, I get trapped by them all the time. But I know I suck at chess, even though I love the game. Meh... But Ansom got BOTH pieces. He got the A's, and now has time to heal. Or do you really think the B's were within round-trip range? Because if the B's were, then the A's certianly were. So why leave units out in the field, when it's safer to bring them home?

Drawing the air forces allows for either a strike against Ansom or the remaining siege. Personally, I think it is tactically brilliant. Poor tacticians often make the mistake of not being willing to sacrifice your best units if it means you can win.

Parson was willing to sacrifice the A's if he HAD to, but he was working to prevent that. Otherwise he would have sent out Ensign Toast and Archduke Ferdnand as well on the B's to hit more Siege engines. Or at least one more Warlord on the B's, while keeping a reserve of B's and maybe even an A or two with his final Warlord for air cover over the Knob.

I have yet to see how Parson's plan has failed, other than being interrupted by the Tactical moron that is His Toolship.

It "Failed" when Jillian rolled onto the scene and said, "Oh Hai! I just PWNZORed your dwagosn! You are Teh SUCK!!! NOOB!!!1111oneoneone!!!" That was my entire "Strategery vs. Dumb Luck" thread. Parson would not have left the A-dwagons with thier asses hanging out knowing Jillian could "stumble across" them while either searching the "Most Likely" area, or running to Ansom's rescue. The "lucky find" was a bit more than I can swallow.

For that matter, Stanley may be about to go do what Parson would have had the dwagons do anyway. Only now, they have Stanley's bonuses, a foolamancer, and 3 KISS to add to the firepower.

Really? Last battle, Ansom and Co. were as follows:
3 Warlords
1 Arkhamtool
3 Heavy Duty Contractors.
Woodsy Elves
Gumps

and they took out
3 uncroaked Warlords
3 unwounded B-dwagons
19 wounded a-dwagons

With the loss of 8 Woodsy elves, and 2-3 gwiffins

Now the battle will be between
3 Warlord-Lite?/Hobgobwin elite troops
1 Overlord
1 Arkham Hammer
20 B-dwagons.

And since Stanley will run out of move before he gets to Ansom's position, Ansom will be back to full strength.

What makes you think that that the authors bailed him out? are you sure they didn't just put him in a situation that leads to a more dramatic death?

Why bother? Ansom could have gotten out on his own. Vinny told him how to. But that wasn't good enough. Jillian had to come along and totally blast the A's out of the sky, even though Parson SHOULD HAVE expected it, and taken the necessary precautions.

Ansom's death after this point is totally pointless. It's like watching Jaws 3 or 4. You get interested in one character, and the shark eats the person NEXT to them. In the end of the movie, the shark spit out (alive!) the only character I was interested in AFTER eating them!

If they have a choice between taking out Stanley or taking out GK, they would probably choose Stanley.

Sure. Where's Stanley? Where is he going? Does Ansom know? Ansom THINKS Stanley is sitting tight in Gobwin Knob. How will Ansom know Stanley left, especially if Stanley is veiled? A heretofor unmentioned spy? A magic spell that was never revealed until it was needed?

Again if you can't find Stanley, do you really want to leave him with a safe refuge to return to?

[Aquillion]

Do human and humanoid units get X'ed eyes in Erfworld? I think that that might just be for cartoonish things like dwagons.

[Toxic Avenger]

I don't know if Twolls count as humanoid in Erfworld, but the Twoll croaked by Jillian's Gwiffon here...is shown with X'd eyes here.

[Oracle_Hunter]

*scratches head* I don't quite get this argument about 'what came first', art-wise. I was just saying what that picture reminded me of. All I was thinking of was that the comic holds a lot of pop culture references and homages, obscure and less so, and taking a stab at maybe placing one of them. I didn't even have any particular expectation of necessarily being right.

It's not really an argument - for me anyhow, it was just pointing out a funny part of memory. Like it says in Older Than They Think, though art builds upon itself, younger & newer consumers are often ignorant of the true origins of a particular Trope. It becomes even funnier when the artists themselves don't know the original origin - the Pieta Plagiarism article mentions, most modern depictions of this pose (not even invented by Michaelangelo BTW, but best executed) are inspired by classic comic book depictions of this.

So, the comment wasn't against you specifically, but merely pointing out an amusing aspect of media literacy, which you had revealed.

Hope that explains it a bit better

PS - Remember, Erfworld is Serious Business!

[Jasdoif]

Yes, Ansom had ground search units, BUT HE DIDN'T USE THEM!!!

Could you explain how Parson could possibly know that Ansom wouldn't use them, please? Or why it would be a better idea to risk leaving the dwagons in the forest if Parson couldn't know?

Sure. Where's Stanley? Where is he going? Does Ansom know? Ansom THINKS Stanley is sitting tight in Gobwin Knob. How will Ansom know Stanley left, especially if Stanley is veiled? A heretofor unmentioned spy? A magic spell that was never revealed until it was needed?

Again if you can't find Stanley, do you really want to leave him with a safe refuge to return to?

Exactly. Heck, I have trouble thinking they would leave Parson and company alone even if they did find Stanley. If GK is the defensive bastion it's supposed to be, someone will be itching to take it over. And they'll want to bring their own management. Which leaves those associated with Stanley's command out to dry, at the very least.

Even if they get to GK and somehow discover for certain that Stanley is out and about somewhere...GK's at the top of a winding mountain path. It makes little sense to try to catch up to him with ground forces. Most likely flying units will head out to find Stanley, and the ground forces will "set up shop" in GK.

[SteveMB]

Finally!!! The question I've been waiting for! Parson could have put them in the forest, one or more hexes "away" from Jillian's most likely Approach Corridor. Yes, Ansom had ground search units, BUT HE DIDN'T USE THEM!!! He sent out the bats, since they had the best range for forest hunts. The bats found the Donut of Doom, JUST LIKE PARSON WANTED HIM TO! And Ansom fell face first into the trap. It didn't matter where Parson put the A-dwagons, as long as he convinced Ansom that they were in the middle of the Dwagon Fort.

For that to work, he had to be confident that Ansom would find the Donut before he found any of the A dwagons. There are two ways to achieve that outcome (assuming that your opponent is smart enough to run a reasonably efficient search pattern):

1. Put the A dwagons a great distance away from the column. Not an option; they used up most of their move getting there and then moving from target to target. The amount of move required for the former is absolutely dictated by circumstances; the amount of move required for the latter is almost as firmly dictated by the need to finish off Ansom's siege train before the window of opportunity closes.

2. Put the A dwagons in a position that has the Donut squarely between them and the column -- which is precisely what Parson did. The fact that there just happened to be a lake in this narrow corridor is obviously a sign that the Titans really do like His Toolishness.

Again, it doesn't matter where Parson puts the A-dwagons, as long as Ansom THINKS they are being protected by the B's. That was Part 1.

Precisely; see above for how this severely constrains Parson's hiding-place selection.

Part 2 would be to protect them from Jillian. Since Parson didn't trust Wanda's spell, he would have taken more precautions. He didn't. And I wave the bullcrap flag.

He didn't have any way to guarantee that Jillian wouldn't get to them. He did the best he could by guaranteeing that she couldn't get any help from enemy non-flying units.

Or do you really think the B's were within round-trip range? Because if the B's were, then the A's certianly were. So why leave units out in the field, when it's safer to bring them home?

Executing Parson's plan required move to be used going from target to target to target within the column. It's possible (but not known either way -- Stanley's attitude didn't seem like what I'd expect if he's planning to hit Ansom, but it's hard to tell how his "walk the path alone" epiphany affected him) that the dwagons do have the move for a round trip if they only have to hit one target.

Parson was willing to sacrifice the A's if he HAD to, but he was working to prevent that. Otherwise he would have sent out Ensign Toast and Archduke Ferdnand as well on the B's to hit more Siege engines. Or at least one more Warlord on the B's, while keeping a reserve of B's and maybe even an A or two with his final Warlord for air cover over the Knob.

We don't know why he held back the other two uncroaked warlords. It could be that the dwagons and warlords he used were the ones deployed for the original punted ambush plan, and he had to work with what was in place (that site is almost certainly closer to the column than GK).

It "Failed" when Jillian rolled onto the scene and said, "Oh Hai! I just PWNZORed your dwagosn! You are Teh SUCK!!! NOOB!!!1111oneoneone!!!" That was my entire "Strategery vs. Dumb Luck" thread. Parson would not have left the A-dwagons with thier asses hanging out knowing Jillian could "stumble across" them while either searching the "Most Likely" area, or running to Ansom's rescue.

I hashed it out in that thread. You're asking an awful lot of Parson if you think he should have predicted Jillian's path when that path was a result of spending the first part of the turn "performing the search" and the second part of the turn "riding in to rescue the Fair Prince".

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Could you explain how Parson could possibly know that Ansom wouldn't use them, please? Or why it would be a better idea to risk leaving the dwagons in the forest if Parson couldn't know?

Parson should know a bit more about unit ranges after a night of studying, and the units Ansom most likely has at his disposal. Games with Flying Units tend to have relativly low movement rates for Ground units. Parson knows or should know that Ansom is probably going to use 22 move/search bats over say 5-7 move/search woodsy elves or 3-5 move/search gumps. And Parson was right, Ansom went straight to the bats. Even with where the dwagons were parked, ground units probably would not have found them, leaving only Jillian and dumb luck.

When the boardgame comes out, I bet the "Dumb Luck" card sells on eBay for 10X the cost of the game, at a MINIMUM!

Exactly. Heck, I have trouble thinking they would leave Parson and company alone even if they did find Stanley. If GK is the defensive bastion it's supposed to be, someone will be itching to take it over. And they'll want to bring their own management. Which leaves those associated with Stanley's command out to dry, at the very least.

Even if they get to GK and somehow discover for certain that Stanley is out and about somewhere...GK's at the top of a winding mountain path. It makes little sense to try to catch up to him with ground forces. Most likely flying units will head out to find Stanley, and the ground forces will "set up shop" in GK.

So now Parson is down to Zero dwagons, 200 or so gobwins and hobgobwins, minus the three elite, and assorted skellys and twolls. Plus a dead 'mancer, an semi-undefined 'mancer, Wanda, Sizemore, and Bogroll. Oh, and the spidews and Sizemore's crap golems.

This vs. Ansom's 60% remaining siege engines and battle bears, whatever air-force he can muster, Jillian and the remaining orlys and Top Gwiffins (sort of implies there are "standard" gwiffins, kind of like the B-dwagons) and 4X as many as he needs ground troops of whatever.

More "Tacticians" are not what is needed now (regardless of the "Ender's Game" hint). The ability to take the fight to Ansom is, and Stanley just flew off with that. And if Parson gets an F-22 Raptor with a pilot and full armaments in his next Stupid Meal? I'm gone. You won't have to listen to my carping any more.

[GWvsJohn]

I think you are overstating the "failure" of Parson's plan. He had two objectives and would have been happy to achieve either one. Croak the Siege or croak the leadership. And I think he was about to achieve the 2nd when Stanley flipped out. He wasn't surprised that the A's got wiped, he was surprised at the ease with which the Coalition did it. He already had his next move planned, Stanley just pulled rank.

There really was no place better to hide the Dwagons and he was acting under Wanda's insistence that Jillian was not a threat. His plan worked, until the Tool stepped in. Hopefully, Stanley is about to go Sauron on Ansom and then Parson's original plan will be successfully completed.

Just because you wouldn't have been willing to sacrifice all the dwagons to take out Ansom doesn't mean Parson wasn't.

[fendrin]

The Hat is a telegram system. The Thinkamancer (if they actually work that way) is a telephone system. The Table was an All-On Tactical Network. I was thinking of adding that, but you beat me to the punch. Still, the story has been advanced on the basis of Ansom's poor communications and intel net. If we're gonna pretend it's not really a problem, then why bring it up in the first place?

1) I didn't bring it up... I was responding to someone else's comment.
2) Ansom still had a disadvantage in that he had to spend a unit's move in order to give orders, other than to the one hex with the hat. This is now somewhat mitigated by the Archons, but now instead of spending a unit's move, he has to spend schmuckers.

Finally!!! The question I've been waiting for! Parson could have put them in the forest, one or more hexes "away" from Jillian's most likely Approach Corridor.

And how exactly was Parson supposed to know her "most likely Approach Corridor"? I refer you to the post I linked in my previous post. There are three equally possible paths done up in ascii-map form there. Only one of the three intersects with the A-dwagons. The only way to remove the A-dwagons from her various likely approach vectors would have been to puthem between the fort and the column, at which point the bats probably would have found them. So which is better? a large chance of them being discovered which would ruin the plan, or a small chance of them being discovered in such a way that would NOT ruin the plan?

Again, it doesn't matter where Parson puts the A-dwagons, as long as Ansom THINKS they are being protected by the B's. That was Part 1. Part 2 would be to protect them from Jillian. Since Parson didn't trust Wanda's spell, he would have taken more precautions. He didn't. And I wave the bullcrap flag.

To summarize what I said above, it doesn't make sense to risk part 1 when trying to achieve part 2. Parson did what he could to protect them without risking the plan. The plan comes first. In Ansom's words, "If the plan does not plan for problems outside the plan, then it isn't a plan at all."

Yeah, I know what a fork is, and yes, I get trapped by them all the time. But I know I suck at chess, even though I love the game. Meh... But Ansom got BOTH pieces. He got the A's, and now has time to heal. Or do you really think the B's were within round-trip range? Because if the B's were, then the A's certianly were. So why leave units out in the field, when it's safer to bring them home?

See my analysis from a previous thread.(just the first part).

Parson was willing to sacrifice the A's if he HAD to, but he was working to prevent that. Otherwise he would have sent out Ensign Toast and Archduke Ferdnand as well on the B's to hit more Siege engines. Or at least one more Warlord on the B's, while keeping a reserve of B's and maybe even an A or two with his final Warlord for air cover over the Knob.

If he had put a warlord in with the Bs, the bat would have seen it, and that would have raised a red flag. That and it would be unwise to risk ALL of the uncroaked at once.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that they are involved in another task, possibly in the tunnels. (Like maybe leading a force of gobwins that are tunneling under the road to GK so that it will collapse under the column?)

It "Failed" when Jillian rolled onto the scene and said, "Oh Hai! I just PWNZORed your dwagosn! You are Teh SUCK!!! NOOB!!!1111oneoneone!!!" That was my entire "Strategery vs. Dumb Luck" thread. Parson would not have left the A-dwagons with thier asses hanging out knowing Jillian could "stumble across" them while either searching the "Most Likely" area, or running to Ansom's rescue. The "lucky find" was a bit more than I can swallow.

Hmm, I think I missed that bit of dialogue.
Make up your mind: either you agree with me that the A-dwagons were expendable bait or their survival was an intrinsic part of the plan. It can't be both ways. (you can be undecided, but you can't say it's both.)

Why bother? Ansom could have gotten out on his own. Vinny told him how to. But that wasn't good enough. Jillian had to come along and totally blast the A's out of the sky, even though Parson SHOULD HAVE expected it, and taken the necessary precautions.

Yes, why would the authors want to increase the dramatic tension?

Ansom's death after this point is totally pointless. It's like watching Jaws 3 or 4. You get interested in one character, and the shark eats the person NEXT to them. In the end of the movie, the shark spit out (alive!) the only character I was interested in AFTER eating them!

Having never seen those movies, I can't comment on them. However, I don't think Ansom dieing could ever be pointless. Unless, you know, it happens as an epilogue when he's old and grey... if erflings even age...

Sure. Where's Stanley? Where is he going? Does Ansom know? Ansom THINKS Stanley is sitting tight in Gobwin Knob. How will Ansom know Stanley left, especially if Stanley is veiled? A heretofor unmentioned spy? A magic spell that was never revealed until it was needed?

Again if you can't find Stanley, do you really want to leave him with a safe refuge to return to?

You are right. However, I think we've been making a key mistake. Does GK actually need to remain 'intact' for Parson to 'win'? I think his end-game criteria are starting to shift. So long as Parson and his friends survive, do you really think he will care whether or not GK falls?

Note: I have not responded to every piece of your post. The things I have not responded to are things that I agree with, already sais something about in this post, or are irrelevant. This is to make this post a little shorter.

[teratorn]

So now Parson is down to Zero dwagons, 200 or so gobwins and hobgobwins, minus the three elite, and assorted skellys and twolls. Plus a dead 'mancer, an semi-undefined 'mancer, Wanda, Sizemore, and Bogroll. Oh, and the spidews and Sizemore's crap golems.

Where did you get the 200 or so gobwins? He has 200 men but thousands of gobwins.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

<snip>

</snip>
I hashed it out in that thread. You're asking an awful lot of Parson if you think he should have predicted Jillian's path when that path was a result of spending the first part of the turn "performing the search" and the second part of the turn "riding in to rescue the Fair Prince".

When we haggled this out on the other threads, neither of us convinced the other. But that's life. You agree to disagree, and move on.

But your argument, presented logically, spurred me on to look at things from your point of view. So I dug into my gaming closet, and fished out some of my old Metagaming Microgames, and laid out approximatly the scenario of where Ansom's column was, where the Donut of Doom was in relationship, and then the A-dwagon stack. Then I looked at all the "Most Likely" location for Gobwin Knob based on Parson's "at home" game map, and Wanda's flight path with Manpower the Temporary. Essentially, I assumed that Ansom was to the east, GK was to the west, and the troops were marching approximatly east to west.

Parson sent the dwagons east to sow hate and discontent BEFORE Jillian "made her daring escape." So now Jillian really doesn't have any idea which way Parson sent the dwagons, other than east. But which east? Northeast (above the column?) Southeast? (Below the column) or Due East? (In front of the column) Parson chose SE mostly because of the lake.

So far, so good.

Jillian meets up with Webinar, Dora and the Archons, who have also NOT seen the dwagons. Meanwhile, due to the magic of "Black Sheep Wall/I See Dead People," Parson knows where all the enemy units are, especially long range units. The archons "Popping onto" his map when Ansom decided to hire them should have raised a serious red flag for Parson.

But basically since Wanda dropped Jillian off with a loving "goodbye kiss," Parson knows where Jillian entered the game, and that Jillian MOST LIKELY was still west of Ansom's position. He also knows where Webby is, and should assume that Jillian will be rendevouing (sp?) with "her side" as quickly as possible, Parson should also know that Jillian will be heading for Webinar.

Beginning the search, then changing it to "stumble across" the dwagons would take Jillian FAR south of any reasonable search pattern. Staging the wounded A's one to three hexes EAST of the lake would still be reasonably within range to sow more hate and discontent, while keeping them away from the every lovely and uber-deadly Jillian. And away from any nosy ground troops wandering through the woods.

I'm not just depending on trying to visualize the game board, I made my level best effort to game it out. With a board and pieces. (Sure, they were space ships and ground crawlers and jump units from Black Hole, but the theory is still the same.) And there is no position Jillian reasonably could have either started out, or switched to, to hit the A-dwagon stack. Unless GK is due SOUTH of Ansom's position.

Jillian should NOT have been able to find the dwagons in a manner Parson could not have predicted and protected against. Yet she did.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

personally, I think that at the cost of a few points of movement Parson should have concentrated all Dwagons over the lake hex. While it would have meant they wouldn't be able to kill as much, they would be guaranteed that what happened didn't. Ansom would not have had enough air power to assault all those dwagons cause the unwounded would take point and they would have to wound all the healthy ones before fighting wounded ones...They might have been able to kill a few, but not without a suicide run by their entire leadership core...not against healthy dwagon stacks...especialy if they were unable to bring any ground support and were forced into an arial battle over water.

But that is past...the Titans (read: authors) have a plan...that plan is not known by us or by the players in their creation...we can only guess at the plan...it determines who lives and dies...what strategies will be effective and which are doomed to failure...no amount of arguing one way or the other will change that.

[GWvsJohn]

Perhaps Ansom was further back (east) in the column than the siege and hiding the dwagons on that side of the ring risked discovery by Ansom and Vinny on their route to the ring. Ansom's group seems to be the more powerful of the two groups (even considering the Archons)

Also, we have to remember Parson is acting under the assumption (maybe not 100%) that Wanda can keep Jillian in check.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Where did you get the 200 or so gobwins? He has 200 men but thousands of gobwins.

But he's still outnumbered by more than 25 to 1. men, gobwins, hobgobwins, skellys, twolls, spidews, whatever. For every living or otherwise body he can put on the field, Ansom can put twenty-five!

So no matter how many troops Parson fields, Ansom has a serious numerical superiority. And the Siege engines. And the Battle Bears. And Flying units such as the orlys, bats, and gwiffins, which may be firter subdivided. Jillian is a "Top Gwiffin" pilot. Which implies that there are other, lesser gwiffins and gwiffin pilots.

The key to stopping Ansom was taking out Ansom's artillery. And that's just not doable any more. His only advantages was superior air power (blown out of the sky by Jillian), no "Fog-of-War" (disassembeled by Stanley), and a highly defensable fortress. And Ansom has the artillery pieces to batter down Stanley/Parson's walls.

[Lamech]

On the dirtamancer croakmancer combo. First off we don't know that Sizemore can just animate crap. We know he built the defenses so its pretty likely that his magic can animate other things. Since dirt is part of the name its not that much of a stretch to assume that Sizemore can animate dirt. Now how would dirt, a lot of which is degraded dead things, work with animating dead things. Hmm...
Two Wanda can do more than just animate uncroaked, so that could also work well with a dirtamancer or a thinkamancer.

Of course, I'm wondering why Parson doesn't summon Ansom take the pliers and have Wanda send Ansom back still mind controled he and the Archons can kill the gwiffions and Jillian. Also get a spell that can summon a flier, or get a mercenary flier. Then Ansom can lead the air and mountain units on a wild goose chase and the air unit can finish off the entire coalition while it is camped on GK.

Also Ansom is off balance right now and will be really off balance if an attack doesn't come. The same applies to Vinny and possibly Jillian. Also I'm guessing a bunch of the coalition will think why would Stanley not take the Arkenpliers, and then conclude it is a trap. Everyone will be confused especially if GK is unguarded.

[Wender]

And if Parson gets an F-22 Raptor with a pilot and full armaments in his next Stupid Meal? I'm gone. You won't have to listen to my carping any more.

... even if the fuel for the F-22 doesn't pop until a later turn?

</evil>

[teratorn]

But he's still outnumbered by more than 25 to 1. men, gobwins, hobgobwins, skellys, twolls, spidews, whatever. For every living or otherwise body he can put on the field, Ansom can put twenty-five!

Not the field, the walls. Parson only needs to counter the guys climbing the walls and that's proportional to the number of siege units. If he had the dwagons Parson could even the odds on his turn (burn a few siege units) to compensate for his losses on the walls.

Now things are tricky. I was not totally disapointed Parson had a setback. I wanted to see a fight near the walls (in game terms it is quite interesting), but without dwagons I feel a bit like you. It's too tough.

But let's see, Parson can still try to do something with his spidews (break the column in two), if there are enough of those, or may prepare for a fight inside the walls, where he can set some traps.

[Bongos]

Given that Ansom has no lookamancers and relies upon scouts to see enemy units... not so sure about that. Ansom only knows enemies are there when his units move into enemy-controlled hexes; if it's not his turn, he's blind as to what's going on until there's a collision of his forces and Stanley's.
The Foolamancer's there, most likely, to hide Stanley when he can't move.
.

I'm not so sure about the blindness, I mean he scouted that one hex with the bat, then rushed in there even though the report was it was empty? Presumably because he thought it was veiled?

So at the very least he would be invisible to the scouts? I'm not sure we know enough about the veiling.

I mean you can be veiled to the bat scouts but not to troops? Or Ansom?

There isn't much known about the Foolamancer and what he can do, looking forward to finding out though.

[teratorn]

I mean you can be veiled to the bat scouts but not to troops? Or Ansom?

It can involve statistics, each unit may have a large chance of failing its spot check with a veil, but higher rank units, or a very large number of them might spot them. It's one of those things that we'll learn soon enough, the foolamancer had a lot of stage time.

[SteveMB]

When we haggled this out on the other threads, neither of us convinced the other. But that's life. You agree to disagree, and move on.

IMO, the bottom line is that the fact that the debate continues proves that, if Parson did make a mistake, it wasn't an obvious n00b error, and is thus not out of character.

It can involve statistics, each unit may have a large chance of failing its spot check with a veil, but higher rank units, or a very large number of them might spot them. It's one of those things that we'll learn soon enough, the foolamancer had a lot of stage time.

The image of Ansom all alone and befuddled after the charge into the center hex makes me suspect that it's more a matter of "higher rank units" than of "very large number of them". However, that could simply be a matter of Jamie's dramatic composition, not intended to convey any tactical implications.