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Thread: Erfworld 83, Page 77
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2007-10-30, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Did you bother to read what I wrote? I said I was expecting Parson to lose more dwagons. But loss in battle is one thing, wholesale slaughter is another!
Parson expected to win with almost no effort, or loss. Jillian pulling off a rescue would have been a "fair" boop-up on Parson's part. The trap wasn't tight enough to hold Ansom. The enemy commander got away. The best laid plans of mice and men...
But that's not what happened. Jillian picked a "lucky flight path" and utterly decimated the A-stack. And Parson should have been able to predict/prevent that from happening. The dwagon slaughter was just gratuitious violence.
Luck plays a role. But it should not be the sole deciding factor. Parson doesn't have to "win" in the end for this to be a good story. He can die/lose fighting to the last man, even taking up a weapon and using his size to his advantage until the sheer number of Ansom's troops riddle him with arrows. I'm sure a guy like Parson would prefer to fight in the shade.
But he has to have a chance. The dice were loaded against him. And I call "foul."
As to when he had a chance.. he did. That chance was lost when the Dwagons were found. He had a perfectly legitimate shot at a win before then. It sucks to be Parson that one chance like that can ruin your game, but he did have a fair shot before then.Last edited by Rutee; 2007-10-30 at 06:17 PM.
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2007-10-30, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
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2007-10-30, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
well very few know of decimation in the roman army terms anymore.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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2007-10-30, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Ask me about our low price vacation plans in the Elemental Plane of Puppies and PieSpoiler
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2007-10-31, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Given Parson's relationship with Wanda so far, how sure of herself and forceful she is, and Stanley usually taking seriously what she has to say Parson did the natural thing and took Wanda at her word. Wanda didn't say there was a good chance that Jillian wouldn't attack, she was absolutely certain. Given the circumstances and the information available to him I think Parson did the logical thing. I don't blame him for the defeat at all.
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2007-10-31, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
No, Parson wasn't confident in the spell. Not at all.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0070.html
That's why I started the whole Strategery vs. Dumb Luck thread. Parson doesn't depend on Luck, or Magic he doesn't fully understand. And rightly so. He depends on strategy, and his own ability to think his way through a problem. Wanda was betting on her spell, and Jillian's love for her and their relationship.
Parson doesn't strike me as the kind to depend on something as flimsy as a personal relationship when everybody's life is on the line.Thanks to Ceika (X2), Yeril, Holammer and Dr. Bath for the Avatars!
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2007-10-31, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
"But it feels like I'm counting on that a little too much at this point."
Sounds like he was counting on it when devising and implementing his plan, and is now having belated second thoughts.
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2007-10-31, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
you know, Targan has a really good point. Parson doesn't express any doubts until AFTER Jillian starts the hunt. Parson trusted the spell until he had a reason to doubt it.
As far as I'm concerned, that's the nail in the coffin to the whole 'Parson should have known where Jillian was going to go' idea.
1) he trusted the spell until it was too late, probably thinking it was more like Dominate Person, than Suggestion.
2) Even if he had know, he couldn't have but the dwagons out of range and still have them do enough damage to the siege to take it all out in 2 turns (which was a time limit based on how long it would take Ansom's air forces to get back in sufficient numbers to defend the siege)
3) He put the A dwagons in the most defensible spot possible, just in case. He couldn't have known that Jillian (or any other subset of Ansom's air forces) would choose that particular flight path. He didn't know that Ansom wouldn't use his ground forces to search for the dwagons, so he put them where the ground forces couldn't get to them, and only a small portion of the air forces could reach.
4) If all that failed (which it did), Parson was ready to sacrifice the A dwagons to take out Ansom.
I see a strong plan here, including contingencies leading to two beneficial outcomes (croak the siege or croak Ansom). So tell me, what else could he have done? If he moved the dwagons off of the lake, they are vulnerable to land units, and just as likely to be found by the air units.
EDIT: uh yeah, what SteveMB said. curse my slow post-typing!Last edited by fendrin; 2007-10-31 at 10:23 AM.
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2007-10-31, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
I liked Parson's plan as well, that's why I was so annoyed when it unraveled so throroughly! But ground units don't have the range of air units. For a flying unit to have a range near 56 or 22, a ground unit sould have a range of 5-7 for "fast" units and 3-5 for "slow" units. Assuming the Woodsy Elves to be fast units and Gumps to be slow, Parson could have hidden the A-dwagons in the woods near the lake. Not over the lake, and slightly further "away" from the Donut of Doom. Ansom used the bats (as Parson predicted) for the search, so as not to waste the other unit's move points on a search effort.
Once Ansom fell for the "con" that was the Donut of Doom, Ansom's boops were in a vice that would be very expensive for him to escape. Either he loses a bunch of bats (primary scouting units), or he loses the troops he took with him, AND the confidence of his remaining troops, if and when he returns.
Jillian coming to the rescue would have reduced that cost by an appreciable margin, but now? "All hail the Conquering Heroes! Hurray for Ansom the Handsome! Hurray for Princess Jillain! Hurray for Count Doombats! They crushed the enemy's main weapon with only the loss of seven bats and a gwiffin!"
Cheese. Pure cheese.Thanks to Ceika (X2), Yeril, Holammer and Dr. Bath for the Avatars!
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2007-10-31, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Wow that is a HUGE assumption. My favorite TBS games were the old Warlords series, which had some pretty fast land units.
More importantly, fleeing back to the column meant the dwagons would destroy the rest of the siege. Ansom was willing to risk his and Vinny's lives to save the siege, but not Jillian's.
you are assumuing Ansom and co. will make it back to the column. That has yet to be determined. [and a nitpick: they lost 3 gwiffons]
Cheddar? Provolone? Gouda? Brie? YUM!Last edited by fendrin; 2007-10-31 at 12:19 PM.
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2007-10-31, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
While it's reasonable to assume that air units are faster than ground units, a difference of nearly a whole order of magnitude is too extreme. In fact, we have evidence that ground units aren't that slow -- Webinar only took a couple of turns to find Jillian (at a location that had to be close enough to GK to be plausible for somebody who really had escaped and travelled on foot).
Assuming the Woodsy Elves to be fast units and Gumps to be slow, Parson could have hidden the A-dwagons in the woods near the lake. Not over the lake, and slightly further "away" from the Donut of Doom. Ansom used the bats (as Parson predicted) for the search, so as not to waste the other unit's move points on a search effort.
Huh? He did send Jillian on the hunt, which wasn't exactly a safe undertaking (and, in fact, she did nearly get croaked).Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-10-31 at 12:28 PM.
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2007-10-31, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Ok, well, after her Think-o-gram he wasn't willing to risk her life
Seriously though, one has to wonder why Ansom didn't join in the hunt himself, or at least send out his remaining bats. I'm guessing he was saving his move and bats for one of two things:
1) If the Jillian's hunt succeeded, he can join in the fight if he has sufficient move remaining. the less he moves around before hand, the better chance he has of being able to make it to the fight.
2a) If The hunt failed, he needed the bats (and his few remaining move) to make it back to the column. True, he would end up losing his siege, but better that than losing the siege and his life.
Alternately,
2b) If Jillian's hunt failed, he could have gone searching himself.
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2007-10-31, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
The reason why Ansom didn't go on the hunt personally is pretty easy: He didn't have the move left to conduct a proper search himself, and leaving the forest units to the mercy of the B-dwagons with no real chance of gaining an advantage wasn't an acceptable option to him.
As for the bats...I think your 2a is the answer.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
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2007-10-31, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
While I don't disagree with you on the facts, I interpret their significance differently. I think that Ansom's primary motivation for waiting was to be able to assist Jillian (if possible), not to avoid abandoning the forest units. As Vinny said, they are a much less tempting target without Ansom there.
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2007-10-31, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
The two happen to coincide: Abandoning the forest units would also hinder Ansom's possibility to assist Jillian. And crushing the A-dwagons and their warlords would increase the survivability of the forest units and the column in general, as well as Jillian's.
As long as Ansom's personal and pragmatic options coincide, I don't think he'd consciously consider which is his "primary" motivation. It's equally difficult to tell which is his primary motivation, as he didn't have to choose one over the other.Last edited by Jasdoif; 2007-10-31 at 03:34 PM.
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2007-10-31, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-31, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-02, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-02, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
I don't think that Stanley has left the city. I don't think there were any dragons. There was a foolamancer and that's it.
Stanley is hiding in the extensive tunnels beneath the Gobwyn Knob.
"We all float down here".Last edited by Harmandil; 2007-11-02 at 03:10 PM.
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2007-11-02, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-02, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
There are lots of reasons why, the most obvious being to ambush the now-even-more-complacent coalition when they arrive, thinking GK essentially deserted.
Now, if the question is, "Why deceive your own troops about leaving, rather than jsut the enemy," I start to run out of answers. Perhaps Stanley has become convinced that Parson, Wanda, or Sizemore really has betrayed him, and he thinks that person is in communication with Ansom?
It's a WAG, though....
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2007-11-02, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
No. While he he admits that as a possibility, his mind is set on following what he believes to be the will of the Titans. The Titans have told him that he must act alone, and so Wanda, Sizemore and Parson will not fit into his plans. If he truly believed that they had betrayed him then he would have simply disbanded them, or worse.
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2007-11-02, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Actually, I've felt that I made it clear that I didn't know where the units are, but that I was making my best guesses, based on the information presented.
Ansom is heading towards Gobwin Knob with a column of assorted forces. That was seen on both Ansom's map, and the Battle Table at GK. They are either heading east to west, or west to east. (True, they could be heading in nearly any direction, but for sake of clarity, let's stick with east to west.)
Gobwin Knob is to the West, which would put Webinar and Dora to the furthest west position of the column. Makes sense, Dora (the Explorer) and Webinar are scouts and Ranger type units. If Jillian were to escape GK, she would head east, back towards the column and her allies, meaning the first person/unit she would encounter would be Webinar and Co. Since Ansom is expecting trouble, he would want to put a couple of heavy hitter mercenary units near the front as well, hence the Archons.
Since the Siege Engines move slowly (assumed, but heavy siege units are usually slow movers in hex-type TBS games), it's logical that the siege engines are staggered throughout the column. Parson would have to stake the A's and the Donut of Doom somewhere near the middle or near the front and south of the column to make his raids. This would put them far east of Jillian's point of entry after her "escape."
Jillian's search, then run for Ansom could only have her stumble across the dwagons if somehow she ended up due south of the wounded column, or PAST the dwagons and coming back.
I dug out some of my hex map games and set up things in the most "logical" way Ansom would be deployed, based on the maps shown so far, and that's how I came to my conclusions. I'm making a lot of assumptions, but none that are radically "Over the Top" in regards to movement rates, etc.
Unless there is a major turn south in the column (could be, a mountain ridge could be just north and east of GK, running east/west as well, but it has never been shown), Jillian should have arrived at the column within one or two hexes "above"(north) or "below"(south) the main column, and began her hunt/search by heading back "parallel" and south of the column. Which means she should have encountered the Donut of Doom BEFORE finding the wounded A's.
Ansom gave Jillian his position in his "Detailed" Thinkagram, which told Jillian that Ansom was also south of the column. But Ansom had no clue where the A's were, and would not have directed Jillian to travel so far south that when she returned, she would shoot up north, and straight through the wounded stack. Ansom knew that the wounded had only so much range, and would not risk not finding them by looking too far south.
Parson could have either moved the A's furher east, and off of the lake, OR moved the Donut of Doom WEST one hex. Vinny's bats spot the DoD, Ansom charges in, Jillian comes to the rescue.
And in response to Jasdoif, yes, I keep reading, hoping that I'm totally wrong, and that there was a real reason for the slaughter.
When Rich first posted Erfworld, I thought to myself, "Giant Elvises? Sounds stoopid." But after the story got rolling, I read a few, then went back to the beginning and started reading the entire story. And it remained quite good, up until luck overrode skill and planning.Thanks to Ceika (X2), Yeril, Holammer and Dr. Bath for the Avatars!
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2007-11-02, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
HalfOrc I agree completely...
No one likes to watch complete pwnings. It's uninspiring. You could kind of consider the comic to be based around a particular session of a strategy game, and instead of an epic contest, it turns out to be some lopsided affair. Why is that interesting. Why is that a story worth telling and hearing. Why not tell a story about a session that was actually a good matchup, I wonder. If this strip isn't written for gamers then who's it written for, and what gamer is going to be interested in some blowout. It's almost like the strip lost its nerve and couldn't bear to have the quote/unquote good guys getting beat back. Lost its will to be different or something, got suddenly scared of the height it had climbed to and came back down into the realm of the cliche. (Now maybe starting to morph Parson into some stock good character? Bleh...) Ansom should have lost something from getting fooled like that, and not because of some lightning-strikes type of thing that I suppose could still be pending. His being able to turn that bad misstep into such a huge win for him was a very bad choice imo. Why are any of us still griping about that? Because it was so cool for awhile. It's like getting mad when your favorite sports team trades away their best player for some no-account in return, yes it was their decision to make but you still feel invested in it as a fan.
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2007-11-03, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Ansom avoided getting owned in force because the Tool canceled Parson's plan. And Misty died. And the dwagons were recalled. All of that together screwed any normal chance for him to make a serious dent in Ansom's forces. And everything he was doing was anything an intelligent, experienced gamer would have done. But now he has gone from possibly ending the war to being right back where Gobwin Knob was before he arrived: up Boop Creek without a paddle.
This is where he will have to actually have to get creative. This is where even your best players will hang it up and resign the game. Parson is now blind and has no command-control-coordination. His forces are out-numbered and demoralized. His most useful units are gone, his best caster is catatonic and his best counselor is in despair. His life is in danger and he is adrift in an alien world with resources he barely understands and which do not seem particularly useful at the moment. What is he going to possibly be able to do? I can't wait to find out.Illimir orc monk avatar by yours, truly. He seems to be looking for his cigarettes.
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2007-11-03, 01:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Ansom did have one major clue where the wounded dwagons were. He knew that they were not in any of the hexes his units had already explored (the ones with known terrain in his map), and were necessarily in one of the unexplored hexes (indicated on the map as white "fog of war"). Ergo, he presumably sent Jillian far enough south to run a search pattern directed toward the hexes that were far enough away to be in the "fog of war" area, but close enough to be plausibly within reach for the wounded dwagons. From that area, her change of plans (from "performing the search" to "riding in to rescue the Fair Prince") would require her to "shoot up north".
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2007-11-03, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-03, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
Yes. And for the fiftheenth PLUS time, everyone ignores that had Parson shifted either the wounded A's EAST one hex, or the entire Donut of Doom WEST one hex, Jillian never would have found them. Moving the DoD west one or two hexes would have left the wounded A's over the lake, and out of range of forest capable units.
Leaving the A-dwagons where Jillian could find them BEFORE finding the healthy stacks is a pure NOOB mistake. One Parson is not likely to make.
A good fight is an enjoyable thing to watch. A shellacking is a boring thing to watch. Guess what losing 19 A-dwagons, three Warlords, and three B-dwagons to six bats, a squad of eight woodsy elves, and at most three gwiffins?Thanks to Ceika (X2), Yeril, Holammer and Dr. Bath for the Avatars!
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2007-11-03, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-03, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 83, Page 77
One or more people refuse to believe that it was random chance, which causes problems for all strategists. Oh, and seems to be a theme of the comic. Or maybe Vinny's a luckamancer.
Moving the Ring a hex or two west
1) would have taken them out of the forest, which
2) would have left them exposed to major counter-attack which
3) would have allowed Ansom to find out that the A-dwags weren't in the middle without using up so much move which
4) would have let him spend more move on finding the A-dwagons... He may not even have had to rely on the crap shoot that was the Hunt.
And that sounds like a good idea to you?
Think your strategies through before you suggest they would be better than Parsons! You just made a "pure NOOB mistake" (in your own words... personally, I despise the term NOOB).
I absolutely agree with you. But remember the old (and incredibly appropriate) saying: Its always darkest just before dawn.
And guess what time it is in Erfworld?Last edited by fendrin; 2007-11-03 at 09:34 AM.