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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Wrecan's Avatar

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    Default Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

    Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is my personal estimate of the characters' stats. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS.

    Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

    We also discuss the stats of other characters in OOTS, such as Xykon, the Linear Guild, Miko and others. I only ask that we not discuss the stats of characters that are from other stories, movies, comic strips and so on. Thanks and welcome!

    Roy Greenhilt (currently deceased)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter 13
    Attributes (39 pt buy min):
    Str ≥20 (from magic item or level boost, analysis here)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ≥16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
    Int 14-18 (“very good”, but V's Int is "higher")
    Wis ≥14 (“very good”)
    Cha ≥12 (“decent”)
    Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Endurance...
    Skills (≥74): Intimidate, Ride 1... No Bluff or Sense Motive.
    Abilities: Favored class (any)
    Items: In Haley's Bags of Holding


    Belkar Bitterleaf
    Chaotic Evil, Halfling Male Ranger11/Barbarian1 (character level 14)
    Attributes (4 pt buy min):
    Str ≥13 (to use Improved Sunder, probably higher)
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, halfling)
    Con ~10 (no evidence)
    Int ~10 (no evidence)
    Wis ≤9 (I have an ... ability score penalty" in Profession skill checks)
    Cha ≤10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha)
    Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image, EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder, Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB, Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB...
    Skills (89): Balance ≥5, Climb, Craft (Trapmaking), Hide (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump, Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4, Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot 0, Survival 0.
    Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion, Evasion, Fast movement, Favored class (rogue), Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other), Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
    Items: Chef's Hat, Cloak, 2 small magical daggers, red chalk, lead sheet, Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient, Mark of Justice (more of a curse than a possession, but still), Mr. Scruffy, Ring of Jumpng +20, stilts, Sapphire guard disguise, string...

    Durkon Thundershield
    Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric13
    Attributes (12 pt buy min):
    Str ≥14 (carries V while flying)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ~12 (no evidence, dwarf)
    Int ~10 (no evidence)
    Wis ≥17 (to use Control Weather scroll)
    Cha ≤10 ("low Charisma modifier" and V includes him in those w/out any Cha)
    Feats (5): Extra Turning (probable, though not definite)...
    Skills (≥31): Heal ≥1, Knowledge (Religion) ≥1 (but not much greater), Ride 0, Speak language (dwarven)...
    Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids, +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants, +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, bless beer, clerical spells (with homebrew domains), darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability, stonecunning, turn undead, weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
    Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, flask, full plate armor, holy symbol, heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer, religious vestments, spyglass...

    Elan
    Chaotic Good Human Male Bard ≥12/Dashing Swordsman1
    Attributes (16 pt buy min):
    Str ~10 (no evidence)
    Dex ≥14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
    Con ~10 (no evidence)
    Int ≤9 (V says can't "manage ... cantrips"; Giant says "Int penalty", Haley's Int says "possible that he raised")
    Wis ≤9 (Roy says he doesn't even have a "smidgen" of Wisdom)
    Cha ≥18
    Feats (6): Dodge, Still Spell, Weapon Finesse...
    Skills (~56): Diplomacy, Hide (wished he "had put more ranks in Hide"), Listen, Move Silently ≤1, Perform (Sing) ≥6, Perform (Stringed Instruments) ≥6, Perform (wind instruments), Ridecc≥2, Speak Language ≤4(less than Haley's Intelligence Bonus), Tumble...
    Abilities: bardic music, bardic lore, charismatic strike, countersong, fascinate, favored class (any), glass damage immunity, inspire competence, inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, song of freedom, suggestion
    Items: dashing outfit, +3 keen rapier, lute, Banjo; no armor.
    Spells (per day ≥ 3 4 4 2; known ≥ 6 4 4 3) (no healing): Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Major Image, Mending, Prestidigitation, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition. Not Neutralize Poison.

    Haley Starshine
    Chaotic Good, Human Female Rogue ≥13
    Attributes (26 pt buy min):
    Str 11-15 (high enough to carry Belkar, but must drag Roy)
    Dex 20-21 ("modifier of +5")
    Con ≥14 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
    Int ≥12 (received bonus languages)
    Wis ~10 (no evidence)
    Cha ~10 (no evidence)
    Feats (6+2): Dodge, Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Shot.
    Skills (≥159): Appraise (high), Bluff 16 (maxed ranks), Disable Device, Forgery, Hide ≥15, Knowledge (Arcane) (probable), Open Lock ≥15, Ride 0, Search, Sense Motive ≥2, Tumble, Use Rope ≥8...
    Abilities: Evasion, Favored class (any), Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak attack +7d6, 2 Special abilities (both are feats), Trapfinding, Trap sense +4, Uncanny dodge
    Items: 8 Bags of Holding, 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems, longbow, quivers of green arrows (inc'g silver and cold iron), masterworked lockpicks, rope, Isamu's sap, 50,000 gp and some magic items, Roy's stuff (Roy's greatsword +5 (with other unspecified bonuses), boots, oil of shillelagh, potion of delay poison, medium armor (justification), Bag of Tricks, +5 Air Freshener of Pineness...)...

    Vaarsuvius
    Non-evil alignment, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard13
    Attributes (12 pt buy min):
    Str ≤9 ("I have a Strength penalty")
    Dex 10-11 (“no real attack bonus” on rays)
    Con ≤12 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
    Int ≥18 unmodifed (admits to illithid, may have increased)
    Wis 10-12 (“moderate wisdom”)
    Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost with “poor charisma”)
    Feats (9): AlertnessB, Empowered Spell, Martial Weapon ProficiencyB (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Quickened Spell, Scribe ScrollB... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell
    Skills (97): Concentrate ≤15, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0, Spot (+2), Search 0 (+2), Speak language (elven), Spellcraft...
    Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Barred school (Conjuration and Necromancy), Specialized school (Evocation), Favored class (wizard), Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar
    Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells), raven familiar, golden circlet, robes, many spellbooks, ink, paper, two small gemstones, some item that increases Intelligence by at least 4. no potions or scrolls...
    Spells (per day -- 4+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 2+1): Banishment, Bull's Strength, Chain Lightning, Charm Monster, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Detect Magic, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Fire Trap, Fly, Grasping Hand, Gust of Wind, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Mass Bear's Endurance. Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Enlarge Person, Owl's Wisdom, Power Word Blind, Prestidigitation, Prismatic Spray, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion, Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying, Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger, Vampiric Touch, Veil...
    Last edited by Wrecan; 2008-10-03 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Elan wears no armor!
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Wrecan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Frequently Asked Questions

    Q. Where did you get this idea?
    A. The first incarnation of this thread was started by runolfr in the old version of the message boards. Everybody is always talking about this stuff and this thread is intended to be a central repository for all discussions of the stats of OOTS and the various NPCs (though I'm only keeping track of OOTS stats). You can read the prior version of this thread here:
    Class and Level Geekery
    Class and Level Geekery II.

    Q. Doesn't Comic X demonstrate Vaarsuvius' gender?
    A. No. No! NO! Please read the FAQ. Better yet, I'll quote it verbatim:
    Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?

    A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception, not the actual reality of the situation.

    Q. When do the OOTS PCs level up?
    A. OOTS is 10th level some time before episode 1, 11th level at episode 12, 12th level at 124, 13th level by 397 (Elan's 13th level was in his new prestige class), and Belkar hit 14th level in 515. Probably the rest hit 14th level sometime earlier as Belkar suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing and was unable to kill living creatures while in Azure City. If Roy is raised from the dead, he will likely be reduced to 12th level.

    Q. Why don't you list character ages?
    A. A few reasons. First, age is only relevant in D&D if one changes Age Categories. As far as we can tell, everybody is in the "Adult" Age category. Second, the Giant has not been very, how shall we say, consistent, on character ages. Since there's no mechanical (read geeky) benefit/penalty to any specific age, unless someone changes age category in a strip, we're not tracking it.

    Q. In Comic 2, Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
    A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses), and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level.

    Q. Does Comic 17 mean that Belkar has a sonic sunder attack?
    A. No. it would ruin the joke if Belkar was referring to some sonic attack, as opposed to making fun of the flimsiness of the standard rapier.

    Q. In Comic 28, didn't Haley claim to have a Charisma of 18?
    A. She was talking about Elan.

    Q. In Comic 31, Roy is more appetizing than Vaarsuvius to the illithid. Doesn't this mean Roy should have a higher Intelligence than Vaarsuvius?
    A. No. The illithid apparently measures the aggregate of all the mental Abilities (Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma). V has a high Intelligence, but average Wisdom and low Charisma. Roy needs to have a higher aggregate score.

    Q. In Comic 34, Roy says Elan's bardic bonus is +1, meaning he is no greater than 8th level. Doesn't this make him two levels lower than the rest of the party?
    A. Since everybody gains a level at the same time (more or less) in Comic 124, it seems everybody is the same level. Otherwise, they'd increase in level in staggered bits. So Comic 124 trumps Comic 34. And since we know the party level was 11 at the time, Elan's bardic bonus is higher than +1, notwithstanding what Roy says.

    Q. In Comic 38, Durkon tells Roy he's paralyzed because he was poisoned 17 times with Strength poison. Doesn't this mean Roy's Stength is 17?
    A. No. First poison inflicts variable Ability Damage. Being poisoned 17 times would mean he lost dozens of Strengh points. Second, your Strength can never be reduced below 0, no matter how much you're poisoned. The number 17 was chosen for its funny. It cannot indicate Roy's Strength.

    Q. Doesn't Comic 49 indicate Vaarsuvius has Time Stop, Meteor Swarm and Wish in the spellbook?
    A. No. Vaarsuvius was not even looking at the spellbook. It was likely an attempt to suggest the most outrageous spells for Zz'ditri's variant Fly spell. The evidence, at best, in inconclusive.

    Q. In Comic 58, Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
    A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

    Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
    A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.

    Q. In Comic 73, Thor acts pretty chaotically and he's listed as Chaotic Good in Deities and Demigods. Since clerics cannot be more than one step removed from their deity, how can Durkon be lawful?
    A. The Thor in OOTS is not the Thor in Deities and Demigods. Thor is more likely Neutral Good with lots of Lawful and Chaotic characteristics. Either way, Durkon, is clearly Lawful Good.

    Q. Where's Elan's coffee maker (Comic 81), espresto box (Comic 84), squirrel, paddleball game, lantern, roller skate or jam (Comic 206)?
    A. From Comic 471, Elan appears to have lost all of his equipment when Nale temporarily switched places with him. So only the equipment he has been seen with since his escape from prison in Comic 387 will be listed.

    Q. From Comic 127, You use Vaarsuvius' statement that Elan can't use cantrips as evidence that Elan has under a 10 Intelligence. But Elan casts spells all the time.
    A. In D&D, wizards use Intelligence to cast spells and require Intelligence 10 to cast cantrips. Bards use Charisma. Vaarsuvius is saying Elan doesn't have the Intelligence needed to cast cantrips as a Wizard.

    Q. In Comic 170, Durkon gets a golden tankard. Why isn't that on his possessions?
    A. It's too big for Durkon to carry, so we assume it was left behind. If it shows up again, it will be placed on the possessions list.

    Q. In Comic 188, doesn't Vaarsuvius demonstrate the skill Speak Language (draconic)?
    A. Not necessarily. Vaarsuvius may also have ranks in Decipher Script (for which evidence has been found in one of the Dragon Magazine strips).

    Q. In Comic 245, Vaarsuvius and Haley only manage to save one bag of treasure. Why do you still list Haley as having eight bags of holding?
    A. The bag they rescued is not a bag of holding, but a regular sack of treasure. We know this because in Comic 130 we see what a bag of holding looks like, and it doesn't look like the sack of treasure in Comic 245. Haley keeps her bags of holding on her person. It wouldn't have needed rescuing.

    Q. In Comic 249, Belkar talks about Roy's "heavy armor". Why is he listed with only Medium armor?
    A. In order for Roy carrying Durkon (as he does in Comic 5) to make sense, Roy would need to be wearing nothing heavier than Medium armor. Otherwise, Roy runs no faster than Durkon. Thus, we assume Belkar is speaking descriptively about Roy's armor, in accordance with his Craft Disturbing Mental Images Feat.

    Q. In Comic 446, Vaarsuvius seems to cast chain lightning, no?
    A. No. That's just an artistic rendition of a standard lightning bolt.
    Last edited by Wrecan; 2008-10-24 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Clarifications
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chrismith's Avatar

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    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Unless anyone has any objections, I'm going to go ahead and copy over stats for the other characters that were in the previous thread, with some updates. If anyone disagrees with anything I've changed, feel free to discuss.

    Team Evil

    Redcloak
    Lawful Evil, Goblin Male, Cleric 15+
    Attributes:
    Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial)
    Con ~10 (no evidence)
    Int ~10 (no evidence)
    Wis 20+ (save DC for L7 spell is >21)
    Cha 12+ (repeated use of Rebuke Undead)
    Feats (5+): Extend Spell, Craft Wonderous Item (helped Xykon create his phylactery)
    Skills (36+): Diplomacy; +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
    Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (Destruction and Law), darkvision 60'.
    Items: Unholy symbol (also Xykon’s phylactery), Crimson Mantle, spyglass.

    Xykon
    Chaotic Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 21+
    Attributes:
    Str 14+ (Able to carry two goblins and an elf while flying)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con n/a (undead)
    Int ~13 (likely started at 8 or 9, gets +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
    Wis ~13 (likely started at 8 or 9, gets +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
    Cha 28+ (based on Start of Darkness events)
    Feats (7+): Maximize Spell, Epic Spellcasting, some sort of crafting feat
    Skills (46+): Bluff; +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks, Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge (Arcana) 24+ (Prereqs for Epic Spellcasting feat)
    Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
    Items: Widescreen crystal ball, Teevo, crown that radiates evil, headband likely belonging to Dorukan.
    SoD spoiler:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Also has (or had) a gem containing the souls of Dorukan and Lirian.

    Spells Known: Animate Dead, Cloister, Cloudkill, Energy Drain, Finger of Death, Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Overland Flight,
    Ray of Frost, Shatter, Soul Bind, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Insanity, Teleport, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.

    Tsukiko
    Evil, Human Female, Wizard 3+ / Cleric 3+ / Mystic Theurge 6+
    (minimum CL 9 for both divine and arcane spells)
    Attributes:
    Str 10+ (no evidence)
    Dex 10+ (no evidence)
    Con 10+ (no evidence)
    Int 15+ (minimum to cast Teleport as a wizard)
    Wis 15+ (minimum to cast Flame Strike as a cleric)
    Cha 10+ (no evidence, assumed not to be a Sorcerer or Favored Soul)
    Feats (6+): Scribe scroll, Quicken Spell
    Skills (42+): Knowledge (arcana) 6+, Knowledge (religion) 6+ (Requirements for Mystic Theurge)
    Abilities: Unknown.
    Items: Unknown.
    Spells Known: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Shout, Teleport, Dominate Person, Fireball, Invisibility, Electric Orb Fire Orb, Lesser Acid Orb, Cold Orb

    Monster in the Darkness
    Little is known about the MitD, but what we do know about its stats is summarized below.


    The Linear Guild

    Nale
    Lawful Evil, Human Male, Fighter 1+ - Rogue 1+ - Sorcerer 6+
    Attributes:
    Str ~10 (no evidence)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ~10 (no evidence)
    Int ~10 (no evidence)
    Wis ~10 (no evidence)
    Cha 15+ (Minimum to cast sending)
    Feats (8): Unknown.
    Skills (49+): Bluff
    Abilities: Sneak attack +1d6 (or more), trapfinding
    Items: Longsword, +3 Longsword (currently held by Cliffport PD), chain shirt (probably masterwork to minimize spell failure chances), cure potions.
    Known Spells: Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat, Suggestion, Prestidigitation. Nale claims to specialize in Enchantment spells.

    Sabine
    Evil, possibly a Succubus or Erinyes, Outsider, Rogue 1+ (Stated in No Cure for the Paladin Blues)
    Attributes:
    Str =18 (carried Nale and Thog while flying)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ~10 (no evidence)
    Int ~10 (no evidence)
    Wis ~10 (no evidence)
    Cha ~10 (no evidence)
    Feats (5): Unknown
    Skills (120+): Unknown
    Abilities: Energy drain, shape-shifting, DR against either cold iron or silver (or both?), plane shift 1/day
    Items: Sabine carried a crossbow in the Dungeon of Dorukan, but hasn't been seen with it lately.

    Thog
    Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Orc, Fighter 2 - Barbarian 10
    Attributes:
    Str 14+ (able to carry Hilgya while flying, likely higher)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ~10 (no evidence)
    Int 8 or lower ("Int was his dump stat.")
    Wis ~10 (no evidence)
    Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial)
    Feats (7): 2 Fighter bonus feats
    Skills (56+): Unknown
    Abilities: Fast movement, rage 3/day, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, DR 2/-, Darkvision, Orc Blood.
    Items: +3 Great Axe (currently held by Cliffport PD), medium armor, Celine Dion album, Leprechaun suit.

    Part-time Members
    Spoiler
    Show

    Leeky Windstaff
    Neutral Evil, Male Gnome, Druid 14+ (cast Firestorm and Heal)
    Attributes:
    Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ~12 (no evidence, racial)
    Int ~10 (no evidence)
    Wis 17+ (Minimum to cast Fire Storm)
    Cha ~10 (no evidence)
    Feats (5): Leadership
    Skills (66+): Unknown
    Abilities: Low-Light Vision; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions; +1 DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast; +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids; +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type; +2 racial bonus on Listen checks; +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks; spell-Like abilities (CL 1; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level): 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute), dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation; wild shape (4/day, large/tiny/plant); venom immunity; resist nature's lure; trackless step; woodland stride; wild empathy; nature sense; animal companion.
    Items: Staff (properties unknown, broken by Durkon's thunderclap)

    Pompey
    Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Elf, Wizard (Conjurer) 4+
    Attributes:
    Str ~10 (no evidence)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ~10 (no evidence)
    Int 12+ (Minimum to cast Summon Monster II)
    Wis ~10 (no evidence)
    Cha ~10 (no evidence)
    Feats (3): Scribe scroll, possibly Still Spell and/or Silent Spell
    Skills (55+): Unknown
    Abilities: Immune to sleep spells and similar magical effects; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects; Low-Light Vision; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks; +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
    Items: Unknown
    Spells Known: Animate Rope, Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

    Yokyok (Deceased)
    Spoiler
    Show

    Possibly Lawful Good, Male Kobold, Unknown Class (may include Duellist PrC)
    Items: Rapier
    This is probably all we'll ever know about Yokyok, since he was killed by a swarm of greedy adventurers before really demonstrating his abilities and his head made into a chip bowl by Belkar.


    Hilgya
    Female Dwarf, Cleric 7+
    Hilgya is known to worship Loki, and one of her domains is Fire. The other is likely chaos.
    Wis 14+ (Minimum to cast Restoration)
    Items: Horned helment, armor, shield, holy symbol of Loki


    Zz'dtri
    Male Drow, Wizard 11+
    Transmuter (Cast six Fly spells in one day), barred schools (two of: Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy)
    Int 16+ (Minimum to cast Flesh to Stone)
    Feats: possibly Two-Weapon Fighting
    Weapons: Pair of scimitars
    Spells: Flesh to Stone, Fly (3.0 version), Shield, Wall of Ice. Unspecified attack spell characterized by green lightning.

    Yikyik (Deceased)
    Spoiler
    Show

    Male Kobold, Ranger
    Feats: Combat Reflexes



    The Sapphire Guard

    Miko Miyazaki (deceased)
    Spoiler
    Show

    Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2 / Fallen Paladin 12-14 (based on number of attacks per round)
    Attributes:
    Str 13+ (to wield Katana one-handed)
    Dex 17+ (required for Improved 2-Weapon Fighting)
    Con 12+ (no clear evidence, but has high damage capacity)
    Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
    Wis 11+ (Minimum to cast Cure Light Wounds)
    Cha 14+ (effective Divine Grace and substantial Laying On Hands)
    Feats (6-7): Two-Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword/Katana), Power Attack, Cleave, Track
    Skills (30+): Ride, Survival +1, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely), Knowledge (the Planes).
    Abilities: Evasion, flurry of blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows). Unavailable Paladin abilities spoilered-out.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Windstriker), remove disease 2/week, smite evil 3/day, spells (1/1).

    Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor, Katana, Wakizashi, known to carry Cure potions.


    Hinjo
    Lawful Good, Human Male, Paladin 11+ (appears to have 3 attacks/round)
    Attributes:
    Str 10+ (no evidence)
    Dex 10+ (no evidence)
    Con 10+ (no clear evidence, though likely high)
    Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
    Wis 12+ (has a good will save, otherwise unknown)
    Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
    Feats (4+): Unknown.
    Skills (28+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
    Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Dire Wolf "Argent"), remove disease, smite evil , spells (?).
    Items: Cold-iron katana, silver katana, magic boots, cloak and armor.

    O-Chul
    Lawful Good, Human Male, Fighter/Paladin. Level unknown, but likely 140+ hit points. Was lower level than Hinjo prior to captivity.
    Attributes:
    Str ~10 (no evidence)
    Dex ~10 (no evidence)
    Con ~23-27 (Has a Con in the mid-20's)
    Int ~10 (no evidence)
    Wis ~10 (no evidence)
    Cha ~10 (He admits that Cha is his dump stat)
    Feats (4+): Unknown.
    Skills (39+): Bluff 0, Swim,
    Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (?), remove disease, smite evil, spells (?).
    Items: None (currently in POW status).

    Lien
    Lawful Good, Human Female, Paladin 6+ (has a large shark mount); lower level than Hinjo
    Attributes:
    Str 13+ (Prequisite for cleave)
    Dex 10+ (no evidence)
    Con 10+ (no evidence)
    Int 10+ (no evidence)
    Wis 10+ (no evidence)
    Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
    Feats (4+): Weapon Focus (Longspear), Power Attack, Cleave
    Skills (27+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
    Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Large Shark "Razor"), smite evil , spells (?).
    Items: Longspear, magic boots, cloak and armor.

    Other Characters
    Celia
    Female Sylph, 6+ HD (can cast Lightning Bolt)
    Cha 13+
    Abilities: Casts sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD, can detect magic auras
    Spells known: Alter Self, Lightning Bolt

    Julia Greenhilt
    True Neutral Human Female, Wizard 3
    Str ~10 (No evidence)
    Dex ~10 (No evidence)
    Con ~10 (No evidence)
    Int 15+ (Minimum to cast sending from a scroll)
    Wis ~10 (No evidence)
    Cha ~10 (No evidence)
    Feats (3): Unknown
    Skills (24+): Unknown
    Spells known: Magic Missile

    Samantha (Deceased)
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    Evil, Human Female, Sorcerer 12+ (Can cast at least 3 level 6 spells per day)
    Str ~10 (No evidence)
    Dex ~10 (No evidence)
    Con ~10 (No evidence)
    Int ~10 (No evidence)
    Wis ~10 (No evidence)
    Cha 20-21 (Sorcerer with high save DCs)
    Feats (5): Maximize Spell, possibly Spell Focus (Evocation) and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) (her level 3 save DCs are "too high" for Haley); not Still Spell or Silent Spell.
    Skills (42+): Unknown
    Spells known: Chain Lightning, Fireball, Fly, Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missle, Protection From Arrows
    Last edited by Chrismith; 2008-10-26 at 08:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    I don't really think we can use "listed scroes for a goblin" for Redcloak more than we can use listed elf scores for V. And I'd put Reddie's Int at least above 12.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

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    Considering Xykon's unorthodox way of becoming a Lich, does he really have CWI?



    Also, this thread should have a subtitle - Revenge of the Geeks?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    I don't really think we can use "listed scroes for a goblin" for Redcloak more than we can use listed elf scores for V. And I'd put Reddie's Int at least above 12.
    I think using the listed scores for a goblin is more accurate than just using 10-10-10. 10 is the average score for a human, after all, not a goblin. Really, putting a score at all is a little misleading, since we really don't have any solid indications of his abilities, but if we're going to make an estimate then it makes more sense to use the average scores for a goblin that those for a human. Though I suppose it might make more sense to use the ability adjustments for a PC goblin rather than the stats for an NPC.

    Quote Originally Posted by MCerberus View Post
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    Considering Xykon's unorthodox way of becoming a Lich, does he really have CWI?
    Spoiler
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    Redcloak did help him, but there's no indication that Xykon didn't actually prepare the phylactery himself, and (as far as I know) no indication in the rules that anyone else can prepare it.
    Last edited by Chrismith; 2007-10-27 at 12:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Is there really enough uncertainty to justify having Xykon as simply "Evil" instead of Chaotic Evil? I think Xykon has consistently shown plenty of chaotic behavior and little that could be called lawful. He is impulsive, easily bored, and not one to plan beyond the bare minimum. (This was even more pronounced when he was younger and his mental stats hadn't benefitted from aging to venerable and then lichifying.) He even makes fun of Redcloak's Lawful tendency for color-coded parchments.

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    I don't feel is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vectner View Post
    I don't feel is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.
    So someone who has admitted to murdering 490+ people is Chaotic Neutral, eh?

    I'd hate to see how evil someone needs to be before you'd classify them as Chaotic Evil.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith
    I think using the listed scores for a goblin is more accurate than just using 10-10-10. 10 is the average score for a human, after all, not a goblin. Really, putting a score at all is a little misleading, since we really don't have any solid indications of his abilities, but if we're going to make an estimate then it makes more sense to use the average scores for a goblin that those for a human. Though I suppose it might make more sense to use the ability adjustments for a PC goblin rather than the stats for an NPC.
    I'd say there should be just 10 and "no evidence", with note that Strenght is likely to be low and Dexterity is probably high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vectner View Post
    I don't feel is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.
    Not this again...
    Thog kills people with glee and laugh. He obeys Nale's evil orders without hesitation. He's evil.
    Last edited by Morty; 2007-10-27 at 01:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdanel View Post
    Is there really enough uncertainty to justify having Xykon as simply "Evil" instead of Chaotic Evil? I think Xykon has consistently shown plenty of chaotic behavior and little that could be called lawful. He is impulsive, easily bored, and not one to plan beyond the bare minimum. (This was even more pronounced when he was younger and his mental stats hadn't benefited from aging to venerable and then lichifying.) He even makes fun of Redcloak's Lawful tendency for color-coded parchments.
    Two good points here. First, I agree that Xykon should be listed as Chaotic. (I actually didn't notice that he wasn't when I was copying his stats over.)

    Second, Xykon was venerable when he became a lich, meaning that he should have -6 Str and Dex (he doesn't have a Con score anymore) and +3 Wis, Int, and Cha. That should probably be taken into account in his stats. Since he also got +2 to each mental stat when becoming a lich, his Int and Wis would be at 15, assuming they both started at 10 (which seems likely). Having a Cha of 28 also makes sense -- if he started at 18 and put each of his 5 earned points into it, it would wind up at 28 after growing old and becoming a lich.

    However, it's possible that becoming a lich removed the Str and Dex penalties.

    Minor SoD spoilers:
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    When Xykon completes his transformation into a lich, we see him doing a little cartwheel/handstand thing. "Oh, man! I haven't felt this good since...ever! Look at how limber I am! Suck it hard, arthritis!" We later see him pick up Right-eye with one hand, and throw him at Redcloak with such force that both goblins are knocked through a window and flung 10-20 feet.


    Since being a lich gives no Str or Dex bonuses, and Xykon seems to have no problems with either of those stats, we can conclude that he no longer suffers a penalty to these abilities due to age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vectner View Post
    I don't feel is Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral I would say.
    He goes on murderous rampages when not calmed with ice cream. Killing people out of boredom is evil.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Chrismith, you might want to think about creating a FAQ post also.
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Well does have a horrible sense motive and int score. His evil actions stem a lot from Nale and he might be convincing Thog the actions aren't evil. What alignment would bust out of jail to protect his best buddy from an evil breadcrumb devouring witch?

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    Just to completely smash the Thog = Chaotic Neutral argument....

    In Rich's World, Evil people can form deep and lasting friendships.

    I know that some gamers like to pull out the "He helped a friend!! That's a Good act, and therefore <Insert Character Here> is Neutral!!!" card.

    Well, no, it isn't. As Rich commented in one of his gaming articles here villains can have just the same range of emotional needs that everyone else has. Sure you can make a villain an amoral psychopath like Xykon. But you can also make them a complicated villain like Redcloak.

    So while Thog may every once in a while do something that might be considered Good, it is far outweighed by the heinous Evil he commits (not to mention that the friends he usually tries to help are Evil).

    Thog knows Right from Wrong.... He just doesn't care

    Other Thog defenders point to his "childlike" qualities, as if that absolved him of his crimes. They will even say that he is literally to stupid to know any better. Well, this is flat out wrong. First off, in DnD anyone who has an INT score over 2 has an alignment (or rather, anyone over an INT of 2 is considered to have at least some level of "human" intellegence and is therefore not automatically pegged as True Neutral, like animals are). This is under the theory that, at some fundamental level, the creature in question knows Right from Wrong. Besides, Thog already knows when he is guilty of a crime, and readily admits it. Furthermore, we have seen children with alignments, so even if Thog was found to have the intellect of a child, it doesn't excuse his behavior.

    Thog's Ideas of What Things Are, Aren't Exactly What They Seem

    Of course, some people will pull out the Puppy Card and say, anyone who likes Puppies can't be all bad. I will simply remind people that what Thog thinks of as a Puppy isn't exactly what other people might think of when it comes to that term. In other words, his claims that he would love to have Puppies as pets and that he would be a "responsible parent" don't exactly stand up to scrutiny.

    Yes Thog is Carefree and Funny.... So What

    Finally, I think that a lot of people peg Thog as CN because they see him as a Happy Go-Lucky Free Spirit who just follows his whims. And hey, that's what Chaotic Neutral characters do, right? Well yeah, sure. But if Mr. Happy Go-Lucky Free Spirit spends all of his time on murderous rampages filled with wanton slaughter, then you know what? He ain't Chaotic Neutral. That person is Chaotic Evil.

    But lets not forget something. Much like Belkar, Thog exists for us to laugh at his antics. Thog is around to be the Comic Relief of the Linear Guild, and for us to smirk at the Violent Out-of-Control Drunken Idiotic Barbarian. And Thog is also supposed to be a contrast to the machiavellian plotting of Nale and the streetwise seductive nature of Sabine. He also is showing a different face of Evil than the other villains that populate the OotS, that is the Loyal Henchman Who Is Hanging Out With Team Evil Coz He likes Them, And He Gets To Slaughter People.

    -------------------------------

    And this doesn't even get into the whole "He aids and abets the schemes of Evil characters" arguments. Yes, he befriended Not-Nale. And yes, he asked for a hug when the OotS defeated Nale. This just shows that he easily imprints on people. However his time alone with Roy (when they were going after the various sigils) shows that he has very violent impulses. And if that didn't show it, I would think that Thog attacking Haley when Elan implored him not to, would further convince people.

    Now, under the right circumstances (say always hanging out with Elan and never coming near Nale), could Thog have eventually become Chaotic Neutral? Perhaps. But from his actions and his intentions, Thog is currently Chaotic Evil, and it doesn't look like that will change any time soon. Besides, we literally have no evidence that Elan could have been a good enough example on Thog to change his ways for more than a short period of time.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2007-10-27 at 01:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    Sabine
    Chaotic Evil, Succubus (assumed from appearance and energy drain),
    Sabine's identity as a demon or a devil being ambiguous, apparently even to Nale, is a running gag; as such, I think it's a mistake to treat it as not ambiguous here.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    About Belkar's strenght. I don't know if could be considered solid proof but let's see. First, unless I am mistaken, Blekar fights with tiny daggers ever since the weapon shrinkage (tee hee! so tiny). So that would be 1d2 damage. Now here, and here, he is shown killing the hobs in one slash. In the second one he is shown chopping one of the hobs leg, but we don't see his eyes turn to x's, although he is still crippled. First level Hobgoblins have an average hp of 6. In order to kill hobs in one shot with tiny daggers, he would need a strength bonus of +4 and roll maximum damage with the daggers, because a + 5 bonus would mean he would always kill them even with a one, or that some hobs have more hp. Either that or goblinoïds are a favorite enemy. That would at least put his strenght at more then 13. What do you boys and girls think?
    Last edited by Koraks; 2007-10-27 at 02:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Sabine's identity as a demon or a devil being ambiguous, apparently even to Nale, is a running gag; as such, I think it's a mistake to treat it as not ambiguous here.
    I agree, it's been changed. I also removed all of her "standard" succubus skills and feats, and changed her special abilities from the succubus ones to the the ones we have actually seen her use. I left the stats the same, just to use as an estimate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koraks View Post
    About Belkar's strenght. I don't know if could be considered solid proof but let's see. First, unless I am mistaken, Blekar fights with tiny daggers ever since the weapon shrinkage (tee hee! so tiny). So that would be 1d2 damage.
    In 3.0, Belkar would have been using regular daggers, which did 1d4 damage. When the "weapon shrinkage" occurred, his daggers should have gone from medium size to small size -- I see no reason to assume they are tiny. Small daggers do 1d3 damage, so he can one-shot a 6hp hobbo if he rolls maximum damage.
    Last edited by Chrismith; 2007-10-27 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    I'd say Hinjo has a charisma of at least 14. When battling the Hecueva he boasts about "making any save you can dish out", and making a Will save against a DC 19 (minimum 10 + 6 + 3) is no easy feat for somebody with poor will progression, even a level eleven character. His confidence in that respect indicates a decent-to-high charisma. We put Miko's Charisma at 14, so I think it makes sense to do the same for him.

    And Miko's Wisdom is guaranteed at least 11, because in Giant's description of the fight between her and the Order, she casts Cure Light Wounds on her and Windstiker.

    Sabine's strength needs raising to at least 18, and possibly more. She carried Nale, Thog and a Longsword all at once, for a combined minimum weight of 272 lbs. 18 strength is needed to carry this much as a heavy weight, and I'm not sure how much strength would be needed to fly carrying that much.

    Finally, I think all Nale and Thog's pre-Cliffport items should be removed. It looks like they're not going back to get them.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    In 3.0, Belkar would have been using regular daggers, which did 1d4 damage. When the "weapon shrinkage" occurred, his daggers should have gone from medium size to small size -- I see no reason to assume they are tiny. Small daggers do 1d3 damage, so he can one-shot a 6hp hobbo if he rolls maximum damage.
    D'oh! I've been mislead by Haley's «so tiny». Well, still... He one shot's a little too often for it to be only when he max damages. On a d3 (d6/2) max damage is 2 chances out of 6. He just seems to be stonger than that to me.
    Last edited by Koraks; 2007-10-27 at 02:42 PM.
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    Concerning Xykon's Craft Wondrous Items feat:
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    Redcloak did help him, but there's no indication that Xykon didn't actually prepare the phylactery himself, and (as far as I know) no indication in the rules that anyone else can prepare it.
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    A phylactery is a type of magic item, and characters can collaborate to make a magic item (though I'm not finding the rules for it at the moment). The item creation feats encompass the knowledge of how to create the items, and Xykon apparently doesn't know how to create a phylactery on his own. I'd say that they collaborated on its creation, with Redcloak providing the feat, and Xykon providing the needed caster level and probably the XP. Since he's one of the creators, he satisfies the Lich requirement of "must create phylactery himself".


    A note on statting Redcloak, in general (SoD spoilers):
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    We can determine almost nothing about Redcloak himself, since he's wearing a major artifact. Anything that he does, we don't really know whether it's him doing it, or the Mantle. We might even actually want to try to stat out the Mantle itself, independently of its current wearer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koraks View Post
    D'oh! I've been mislead by Haley's «so tiny». Well, still... He one shot's a little too often for it to be only when he max damages. On a d3 (d6/2) max damage is 2 chances out of 6. He just seems to be stonger than that to me.
    Sadly, it is reeeeeeally hard to make story into D&D compatible. He has small daggers, since he can hit Miko with a thrown dagger and hits almost every enemy. Also, his hate for Troglodites and Goblins probably puts those on his Fav enemy list. If I had to guess, in order to illustrate his hate for trogs and gobos, Rich has him mostly one shot them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    I'd say Hinjo has a charisma of at least 14. When battling the Hecueva he boasts about "making any save you can dish out", and making a Will save against a DC 19 (minimum 10 + 6 + 3) is no easy feat for somebody with poor will progression, even a level eleven character. His confidence in that respect indicates a decent-to-high charisma. We put Miko's Charisma at 14, so I think it makes sense to do the same for him.
    Do you mean Wisdom? Will saves are based on Wis, not Cha. That is a good point though; I've updated Hinjo's Wisdom.

    EDIT: D'oh, paladins get to add Charisma to their saves, don't they? Well, in any case, he has either a good wisdom or a good charisma, or both, but we don't know anything for sure yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    And Miko's Wisdom is guaranteed at least 11, because in Giant's description of the fight between her and the Order, she casts Cure Light Wounds on her and Windstiker.

    Sabine's strength needs raising to at least 18, and possibly more. She carried Nale, Thog and a Longsword all at once, for a combined minimum weight of 272 lbs. 18 strength is needed to carry this much as a heavy weight, and I'm not sure how much strength would be needed to fly carrying that much.

    Finally, I think all Nale and Thog's pre-Cliffport items should be removed. It looks like they're not going back to get them.
    A nice catch on Miko. Sabine's strength has been the subject of some controversy; there are some people who claim her strength has to be in the high 20s. I'm going to be conservative and put it at 18.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Concerning Xykon's Craft Wondrous Items feat:
    Spoiler
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    A phylactery is a type of magic item, and characters can collaborate to make a magic item (though I'm not finding the rules for it at the moment). The item creation feats encompass the knowledge of how to create the items, and Xykon apparently doesn't know how to create a phylactery on his own. I'd say that they collaborated on its creation, with Redcloak providing the feat, and Xykon providing the needed caster level and probably the XP. Since he's one of the creators, he satisfies the Lich requirement of "must create phylactery himself".
    A good point, and it makes sense. I'd like to see the rules though, find them and I'll make the change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    A note on statting Redcloak, in general (SoD spoilers):
    Spoiler
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    We can determine almost nothing about Redcloak himself, since he's wearing a major artifact. Anything that he does, we don't really know whether it's him doing it, or the Mantle. We might even actually want to try to stat out the Mantle itself, independently of its current wearer.
    This is irrelevant right now:
    Spoiler
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    With the exception of a brief scene in SoD, he haven't seen Redcloak without the Mantle, and we haven't seen the Mantle without Redcloak. For our purposes, they may as well be one and the same. Now, if the mantle is transferred to someone else, then it might be worth our time to try to figure out what powers the mantle has and what Redcloak's true stats are. But for now, there's nothing we can say on the matter.


    Also, I added Samantha's stats. Most of it is pretty cut and dry from the comic, but I made a note that she may have Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. Her save DC for Lightning Bolt, which should be around 18, is "too high" for Haley, who would have had a reflex save bonus of at least 11 at the time. So either Samantha is a few levels above 12, she has a very high Charisma, or she has some other way of boosting DCs (or Haley just botched her roll).
    Last edited by Chrismith; 2007-10-27 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Is Roy's weapon a "bane of those forsaken by the gods"? If it was, wouldn't it provide extra damage all the time? And how are undead forsaken by the gods?

    I'm just wondering here. Couldn't it have some sort of burst effect (is that the right term?) on a critical and/or when Roy's really pissed off?
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    Crazy idea: My guess for Sabine is that she's a Lawful Evil Half-Fiend Succubus, where Half-Fiend means half-Erinyes or some other devil. Nale could even be aware of her type if she's vulnerable BOTH to silver and cold iron. But crazy ideas don't really belong here, so...

    Non-crazy idea: I think Xykon knows the haste spell.

    SoD spoiler:

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    In the battle between them, Xykon gets off twice as many spells than Dorukan. I think the explanation is that Xykon had cast haste offscreen, and since this was before the conversion to 3.5, the haste he cast was the massively overpowered 3.0 version.

    I think quickened spells are not the explanation, since a) Xykon never once says "quickened" in front of energy drain, and b) energy drain is a ninth level spell, and quickened it would be 13th level. That would mean Xykon had taken the improved spell capacity epic feat at the very least four times and probably more, which would push his absolute minimum level to 26, which I think most would agree is too high.


    Also, I think we can say that Redcloak has some ranks in diplomacy. I would quote from SoD except I don't have the book with me at the moment.
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    It's in the scene when they meet Xykon for the first time. Right-Eye tries to use untrained diplomacy on Xykon, and Redcloak has to come in and save the situation. He comments that he has ranks in diplomacy, unlike Right-Eye.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    (Re: Craft Wonderous Item)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith
    A good point, and it makes sense. I'd like to see the rules though, find them and I'll make the change.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...#prerequisites
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Prerequisites
    Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

    A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

    It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

    If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

    Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

    When two spells at the end of a list are separated by "or," one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.
    Seems fairly straight forward to me. One person can supply the spells needed, and another can supply the feat needed.

    And as a frequent player of ACME casters (what can I say? I play with stingy DMs ), I must say I love the cooperative magic item creation rules.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2007-10-27 at 04:16 PM.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecan View Post
    Q. In Comic 2, Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
    A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses).
    I'd suggest adding to the answer, "and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Wrecan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    I'm sorry, Kish. I don't understand what you just wrote. What are you trying to accommodate with that addition?
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    Elan didn't gain a level. He got converted to 3.5. So how many skill points a bard gains on leveling up is irrelevant.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Wrecan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    I don't think anybody ever thought that meant he had just gained a level.
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery III

    The question talks about how many skill points bards gain per level. "Human bards get 7+Int skill points per level."

    Now, I agree that no one consciously thought "they just gained a level." But thinking that how many points bards gain--per level--is relevant at all is a short circuit. Do you see what I'm saying? If they gained an amount of skill points equal to their Intelligence score each level, that would give Elan's exact Intelligence score if he said how many he gained when he leveled up, but it would still tell nothing about how many he'd gain or lose on being converted to a new edition.
    Last edited by Kish; 2007-10-27 at 09:32 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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